RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

think he had his animal honored by Boone and Crockett. You get your wish for the animal to be honored, P&Y remains true to their rules. Where' s the problem?

Ah... The problem is that Matt McPherson didn' t get a major advertising coup with a P&Y world record whitetail to add to his 5 page ads.

But if he didn' t make bows that exceed 65% letoff he would have. RIGHT??? It' s not P&Y' s fault. It' s not P&Y' s fault Beatty hunted with a non-compliant bow. Bad situation all around, for sure, but pointing fingers at P&Y over it is kinda stupid.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Arthru P, you are exactly right in that last post....

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Arthur.
You just opened up another can of worms:D

But you hit the nail on the head use the gear as per the rules and reap the rewards.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

If P&Y does raise the letoff % limit, I will still shoot a 65% letoff bow for two reasons.

1. I truly feel that they are more accurate! And yes,I have shot a bunch of 70-80% bows.

2. With most modern, rock hard wall bows, letoff % numbers are just a feelgood thing anyhow. You hold a bunch more than 80% when at full draw so you don`t cam over while aiming.

Take two identical bows with different letoff %.....the lower letoff bow will draw way smoother, and I think they launch better too.

I am on your side on this one Arthur and Cougar, and a few others. But I fear we are in the minority here.

This should really open up a can of worms:D....if P&Y raises the letoff%, I will grumble for a while, but if they include crossbows, my membership is over![:@]

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Arthur, thats were you are wrong. The compound bow letoff was originally set at 50%. I am sure there was a discusion and a vote like what is happining now.

What is so magical about 65%? Why was 65% chosen? It was the highest letoff of any bow at the time. Not because it is some kind of magical number were at 66% you have gained an unfair advantage over everyone else.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Actually, Pluto, that' s where YOU' RE wrong. Untill 1988 there was NO restriction on letoff because it wasn' t needed. Compounds started off around 30% letoff, went to 40%, then 50%. P&Y learned of 65% letoff bows being introduced and the issue finally got disturbing. Higher the letoff, the closer the compound got to the crossbow, and they did NOT want to make things easier for the crossbow lobby.

So, rather than have the trend of higher and higher letoff continue, they enacted that rule. 65% was chosen because that was the highest tech available at the time. The hope was that bowhunters would continue to voluntarily comply with their rules, as we all did at the time, so there would be no demand for anything more and the trend would stop.

Only problem is they expected bowhunters would continue to hold themselves to a higher ideal than the law called for - we were ALL ' elitists' not all that long ago - and they neglected to take human nature into account.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Arthur P...I' m glad you' re here. It' s impressive how much actual factual information you have brought to this debate and I, for one, appreciate your endurance and fortitude as you deflect so many uneducated statements based solely on personal and selfish emotions. This is a classic debate. All of these high tech freaks, speed junkies, and outspoken yet mistaken newbies trying their luck with a seasoned and wise veteran. Wake up folks...the man is right.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Wolfen, the ' wise' part might be going a little far afield, but I do prefer ' seasoned veteran' to ' old guy' . :D Thanks for your kind words.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

OK guys EXACTLY WHAT is SOOOOO unfair about an 80% let off bow? I have heard (OK read) many times that the 65% are MORE accurate, and that the 80% let off bow REALLY aren' t holding THAT much less weight...So WHY do you guys HATE these bows SO much that you would not honor and animal shot with one?
Seems some just HATE speed for whatever reason. No carbon arrows, no high let off bows etc.
What makes a buck shot by an 80% (or whatever) let off bow LESS of a trophy?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

NOTHING!

What if you catch it swimming across the lake, motor up to it in a boat and whack it with an axe while it' s completely helpless? Still the same animal but it' s how you took it that determines who will honor it.

I guess you' d enter that swimming animal in Axemasters.[&:]

Like I said above, the rule was put in place to make it harder for crossbows to worm their way into bow seasons. If you don' t mind the idea of having a dozen crossbow hunters ganged around your tree, then fine. Even though there are a lot of bowhunters on your side with the letoff issue, I doubt you' ll find very many of them that are in favor of being in the woods with crossbows. And they' re the ones that really confuse the dickens out of me.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I don' t really think it' s a fair comparison to put 80% compounds against crossbows. The differences are the same as a 65% bow....maybe a few pounds difference. Compounds aren' t: cocked, mounted on a rifle stock and ready to fire. Compounds don' t have a saftey switch or trigger assembly.....most hunting bows don' t have telescopic sights on them either. Whether you are holding 20% or 50% doesn' t make a lick of difference when you compare it to holding nothing. I won' t bite on the crossbow issue until you give me documented proof of P&Y' s statement saying such. I know they don' t want crossbows in our bow seasons, but that certainly doesn' t translate into no 80% compound bows. I don' t see how it paves the way either.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

The whole point was to maintain a clear and demonstrable difference between bows and crossbows. If you' re using a 50 pound, 80% letoff bow, the holding weight is 10 pounds. I don' t know about you, but I could hold that back for a LONG time. Bump that up to 90% and you' re holding 5 pounds. If one of the main arguments against crossbows is that they don' t have to be drawn in the immediate presence of game, then you' re sunk with 80% letoff because they don' t have to be drawing in the immediate presence of game either.

Whether you draw while the animal is out of range and coming in and hold till you get the shot, or whether you draw while the animal is walking behind a bush and hold till the shot, you are NOT drawing in the immediate presence of game.

If you don' t draw when the shot is presented, then you are using your compound exactly LIKE you would use a crossbow, with the only exceptions being the shoulder stock and a somewhat reduced field of fire.

By the way, 65% letoff on that 50 pound bow would be 17 1/2 pounds. Considerably more than ' a few ounces.' You guys shooting 70 pounds, the difference would be 14 pounds vs 24 1/2 pounds. Let' s be honest about what that extra percentage of letoff really is.

And before someone else says it, yes, most of us draw into the stops anyway and being into the stops is being into the stops whether we' re talking 90% or 50%. But we don' t HOLD against the stops, now do we... We pull into the stops only when executing the shot.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I' m honestly trying to have a civil discusion here, but that statement is rediculous! So if I draw my bow when a deers head is behind a tree then I' m not drawing in the " immediate presence of game?" So, in order for it to be " immediate presence" I need to have a crystal clear shot?

Anybody draw while deer are out of range and wait for them to present themselves with a shot in range? I can tell you for sure that I can' t hold my bow for a great deal of time and still make a decent shot. How long does one need to hold the bow drawn for it be comparble? Virtually indefinite time with a crossbow and several seconds/ a minute or two at most with 70# @ 80% compound?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I have viewed this thread over the past couple days and I have my take on the subject, which I will state later.

I pose this question.

Why not do away with the let-off rule. No limitation period.

If your going to change the rule then change it for a permanent fix so know one can complain. Opps sorry I forgot, that is an impossible proposition. You cannot please everyone. Don' t mean to offend with that statement, just stating the bitter truth.

If you are a member of Pope and Young do you support their goals and beliefs? If so why did so many people vote against the 65% let-off rule? Do those individuals already use equipment that does not meet criteria? If you change or do away with the rule does it increase the membership of Pope and Young?

I have to ask what is the underlying reasons for the big squable? With that I say if you want it " YOUR" way then do what you have to so that you can vote on the issue.

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Oh, golly gee whiz! My mistake. I thought this is a BOWHUNTING forum. You do realize that bowhunting was around before your coffee smelling-single camming bowdacious self, don' tcha?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

This is copied & pasted from Pope & Young' s website:


Definition of a Hunting Bow, Arrow, and Broadhead

I. Hunting Bow
A. A hunting bow for big game shall be a longbow, flat bow, recurve bow, compound bow or any combination of these designs meeting the following requirements and restrictions:

1. A device for launching an arrow, which derives its propulsive energy solely from the bending and recovery of two limbs.

2. The bow must be hand drawn by a single and direct, uninterrupted pulling action of the shooter. The bowstring must be moved from brace height to the full draw position by the muscle power of the shooter’s body. The energy used to propel the arrow shall not be derived from any other source such as hydraulic, pneumatic, mechanical or similar devices. These limitations shall not exclude the mechanical leverage advantage provided by eccentric wheels or cams so long as the available energy stored in the bent limbs of the bow is the sole result of a single, continuous, and direct pulling effort by the shooter.

3. The bow must be hand-held. One hand shall hold the bow and the other hand draw the bowstring. The bowstring must be moved and/or held at all points in the draw cycle entirely by the muscle power of the shooter until release. The bowstring must be released as a direct and conscious action of the shooter’s eiter relaxing the tension of the fingers or triggering the release action of a hand-held release aid.

4. The bow shall be no shorter than 30 inches.

B. Exceptions: Physically handicapped bowhunters shall be excepted from the requirements of holding or shooting the bow with their hands.

C. Exclusions:

1. The following shall not be considered a hunting bow:

a. A crossbow.

b. Any device with a gun-type stock or incorporating any device or mechanism that holds the bowstring at partial or full draw without the shooter’s muscle power.

c. Electronic or battery-powered devices shall not be attached to a hunting bow.

d. No portion of the bow’s riser (handle) or any track, trough, channel or other device that attaches directly to the bow’s riser shall contact, support, and/or guide the arrow from a point rearward of the bow’s brace height.

D. Let-Off for Compound Bows:

1. Definition of let-off: That characteristic of a bow that results in a reduction of the force necessary to increase the draw length after the highest level of draw force has been reached. This is characteristic generally associated with, but not restriced to, compound bows.

2. The maximum let-off on a compound bow shall be measured at a point in the draw cycle after the peak draw weight has been attained. It shall be measured near the end of the draw cycle where the minimum holding force is reached. This point in the draw cycle on a compound bow is known as " the bottom of the valley."

3. Determination of the percent of let-off: The values of the peak draw force and the let-off force shall be used to calculate the percent of let-off. The peak force is the maximum force obtained during the draw cycle. The let-off force is the lowest force reached following the peak force during a single uninterrupted draw cycle. In all cases, both the highest and lowest force shall be read from a scale during a single and continual pull condition, without relaxation. This technique eliminates the introduction of hysteresis, which can distort the reading.

% Let-off = 100 X [(Peak Draw Force) - (Minimum Holding Force)] / (Peak Draw Force)

4. The nominal percent of let-off for hunting bows shall be a maximum of 65 percent. It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable.





As you can see, the argument that 65% letoff was purely to keep the cross bows out is wrong.......a compound bow is clearly defined here..... IMO the 65% rule is there because they want it to be there for some reason or another. Once again I shoot a bow at 65% letoff, so I' m ok with it, I just do not think moving the let off to 80% is going to give another hunter an unfair advantage.



Here' s the link to P&Y where I got this info at: http://www.pope-young.org/

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

VAhunter, you' re jumping to some erroneous conclusions again.

Some while back in this mess, I referenced an article in the ' Fifth Edition of Bowhunting Records of North American Big Game' , P&Y' s official ' book.' That article lays it out very clearly that the crossbow is exactly what the 65% rule is all about. It was written by Dave Holt and is entitled " Bowhunting Equipment and Restrictions." Maybe you should check and see if your local library has it on hand so you can read it for yourself.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

What erroneous conclusions did I come up with before? Anyway, I will check outmy local library for the book, but the fact still remains, if they changed the letoff rule, according to their own definition of a hunting bow, a bow could have 99% let off(i' m not advocating this) and still be considered a hunting bow. Furthermore, in their own definition of letoff % they clearly state that minor variations in the 65% letoff rule are allowed due to " variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable."


What is the acceptable " minor" variation? 66%, 67.6%....who knows?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

How much deviation they allow is a good question. Again, that' s like the 30" minimum bow length. Is it overall length or just axle to axle? Not defined very clearly.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I' ll have to agree with you there! It' s not P&Y' s fault. I guess you could say that my problem lies with all of the bowhunters who have made Pope & Young the overall authority on record book animals , so to speak! It saddens me that someone like Zaft could make more money off his buck during the short time he was even associated with Pope & Young (during the ruling) than Beatty has made off of the biggest whitetail deer ever harvested by man![:' (]

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Arthur P,
Good point about the length, I had forgotten about that! I guess all we can do is live with whatever happens!

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Bowfanatic, it saddens me that people start seeing dollar signs and start thinking about all the money they could make when they look at a big rack. What if the next guy to shoot a potential world record buck is a hardcore primitive hunter and does it with all homemade stuff. How much money you figure he' d make? We' ve spiralled all the way down from honoring the animal to money... and that' s what I said this discussion was all about a long time back.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

To me Bowhunting is not about let-off,P&Y,or even Buckmasters record book. It' s about enjoyment and enjoying the Great Outdoors. I don' t care what type of bow a person uses, as long as it' s legal where they hunt. Just hunt hard and ethical. And above hunt safe and have fun. If you want to have a buck in P&Y Record Book, then shoot a P&Y legal bow. If you don' t care about record books, shoot what you want.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

What saddens me is that the animal is no longer honored so much as is the guy who took him!

Seeing big bucks taken these days does not seem as impressive as it once was. Once upon a time this was spoken by almost every bowhunter................." any deer taken with a bow is a trophy" .

It still takes good hunting skills along with some luck to take a nice buck but........its much easier to " kill" that buck these days.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Intresting topic. I am strictly a trophy white-tail hunter. I am in trophy country as I had the state record whitetail within bow range two years ago, but thats another story, but in persueing my goal, its my responsibility to make sure that my equiptment is legal, within the state regs and that it meets P/Y regs and I did this prior to purchaseing my bow. As stated earlier all organizations have rules and guidelines, but at least you know the rules ahead of time if you want to play and if you can' t, then go else where, maybe B/C, BUT THESE ARE THE RULES IF YOU WANT TO PLAY BY P/Y. Buckmasters entry would be kinda like kissin your sester, Yucck, !!![&o] Bobby ;)

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Arthur, as always, a lot of truth and wisdom can be found in your posts. However, comparing my 75% let off to a crossbow is too much. I really can' t follow the comparison. Yes, I understand the 50#' s @ 80%, argument, I could hold that back for awhile, but that is still not comparable to xbow. You must remember not every hunter is accustomed to pulling a 60lbs+ stick with 0% letoff like you. The 80% would be cake for you at first, but eventually you would become soft and weak like the rest of us.:D

I bought my bow b/c it fit well. I was fully aware of the P&Y issues. I' m not advocating they change it, just don' t make me feel like a wuss for choosing over 65%. There is no unfair advantage in my eyes, and I' ve killed deer using both.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Belle Island, my friend, it ain' t me comparing your compound to a crossbow that you' ve got to worry about. It might be my personal opinion, but I' m also telling you the crossbow lobby is going to do exactly that when they stand before your legislators and game commissioners while lobbying their way into your bow season. That is exactly how they are going to get their foot in the door. If you can' t come up with a better freakin' argument than ' it' s no less challenging than 65%" , (which isn' t true at all or there wouldn' t be a market for the things) then prepare to scoot over and make room for a whole bunch of brand new friends because they will show that their crossbows are no less challenging than your 75% letoff bow.

Ask the fellas in Georgia if I' m not being square about it. They just got some new buddies last year.

That ain' t my fault. You' re making these guys sound like they wear white shirts with slide rules stuck in the pocket protector in their shirt pocket and have their glasses patched together with white tape over their nose. Pencil neck geeks! [&:];):D

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Hopefully my last post on this thread.
an 80% let off is MUCH more removed from a cross bow than it is from a long bow.
You must be able to draw the weight.
you must hold the weight until the shot.
you must (99.9999% of the time) hold the bow up with your arms (vs.say sandbags)
80% let off bows can' t be accidentally fired while you fall asleep on the stand
it' s awfully tough to shoot yourself with an 80% let off bow (OK...maybe the foot...or draw with your feet or something idiotic like that).
simply put, any 1/2 way or better thinking person can see the differance between an 80% let off BOW, and a CROSSBOW! of course this DOES leave out politicians ;)

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Mahly, it' s the politicians you have to worry about. That' s why P&Y wanted to maintain that ' clear and demonstrable difference' between bows and crossbows. High letoff bows with mechanical releases really do blur the lines plenty enough to sway the uneducated. Good luck.

I' ve fought crossbows in my state for 30 years, going to public input meetings of the Parks and Wildlife Department, mailing letters and sending e-mails, but now I' m out of the battle until you guys come to your senses.

It' s odd that everybody hollers WE have to stick together on issues like crossbows, but over something like P&Y restrictions it' s ' old men wanting the old times to come back' or ' you belong on the trad forum' and such nonsense as that. As a group, you want support from the traditional community when it suits your purpose but you' re not willing to even listen in good faith to what they have to say on issues that affect us all. That is, when what they have to say isn' t what you want to hear.

It' s supposed to be give and take. Most of you guys are takers only. You take what you want FROM bowhunting but very, very few give anything back.

And that' s a plain fact.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Seeing the number of people I personally intruduced into thew sport (and still do) I' ll assume you don' t mean ME personally when you say that.
I' m with you 100% on crossbows (save for the dis-abled maybe) But I personally think that P&Y has done a good job of defining a bow vs. a cross bow. THOSE are the things we should be showing the politicians.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

It is in the editorial section of the Oct/Nov issue of Bowhunter written by M.R. James. This is the parragraph.
As I see it, we must admit we made a mistake. Why? For years now, about 80% of compound bows sold have greater than 65% letoff. That means most bowhunters afield this fall will be toting bows that are P&Y " illegal," and none of the trophy animals they harvest will be eligible for the P&Y record book. In my opinion, something is wrong when our record system excludes entries by a majority of legally licensed bowhunters.

I will admit, I do not know anyone of your credintals but this guy has, amoung many other things, edited 3 editions of the P&Y record book and it' s director in 1988 when the rule was made 65%. I will take his word for it over some stranger on the net thankyou very much.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I was wrong about the 50% just as you were wrong in your statement that the 65% rule was " P&Y rule all along" . That is just flat wrong. It has only ben a rule for 15 years. It will soon die the death it deserves. RIP

Face it, those of you that don' t want this change are in the minority. You rule will end.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

You may be correct, the 65% rule may die. I won`t lose much sleep over it, but that does not mean it deserves to die. It does not mean your thoughts on the matter are any more correct than those of us who believe it should remain.

BTW, are we in the minority?

I said it before, I`ll say it again...you gotta draw the line somewhere! And yes, I remember when compounds were allowed in...I was shooting deer before they were made.

I have no problem with 80% letoff, I just think that there needs to be a point when enough is enough. Is the letoff arguement the point?

The thing that I find mildly amusing is how anyone feels they can tell a private club how to run their club!

Just for the heck of it Pluto, let me ask you this.....do you feel that 80% letoff helps you in any way while bowhunting?

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

You are so right Big Country. If a preson wants to join a club, then a person must abide by the rules the club has set. If a person dosen' t want too, then don' t join.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

I suspect that when the private club is made recognizable and supported by the public it' s quite easy for the majority to be heard.....and be an influence. Bowhunters made the P&Y club what it is today. Bowhunters will dictate were they are tomorrow too. If " 80%" of bowhunters have P&Y illegal bows then a whole lot of bucks aren' t going to get entered. The book may stick around, but the funds won' t. Companies sell to the public....companies aren' t going to hand out money to P&Y if they' re own manufactured equipment isn' t allowed in.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

There' s a market because someboday asked for it somewhere along the lines. Companies are manufacturing and selling more high let-off bows than anything, at least based on what' s on the racks at the shops.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Pluto, I did not say M.R. James is wrong, I said that many if not most in my area shoot 65% still and after purchasing their bow, either have the dealer change it or do it themselves.

I will challenge M.R. James on one point...........I will strongly argue against the statement that 80% of the bowhunters afield are using more than 65% letoff bows!!!!!!

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Yes indeed, P&Y HAS done a good job of defining a bow vs a crossbow. SO WHY IN THE WORLD DO YOU WANT TO SEE THE DEFINITION CHANGED?

And no, I didn' t mean you personally. I' ve served 17 consecutive terms as an officer in a couple of different archery clubs, with an 18th probably coming in a few months. I' ve seen lots of things and learned more than I ever wanted to know about my fellow archers and bowhunters.

Only a tiny percentage of them support their local clubs. Even a smaller percentage support their state bowhunting organizations. Even a smaller percentage than that support their national bowhunting organization, which IS Pope and Young Club, whether they like it or not.

And the vast majority of those few that do support these clubs and organizations are hardly anything more than a name on the mailing list. They don' t DO anything. They don' t attend meetings. They don' t vote on policy. They don' t pay a whole lot of attention to club rules. They don' t roll up their sleeves and pitch in with the work.

Even so, they' re the first ones to start bitching and whining when something doesn' t suit them. Like they have some divine right to have their way over the rights of the people that DO the things that have to be done.

RE: Rumors of Let-off % being revisted by P&Y
 

Exactly! If and when P & Y changes their letoff rule, so be it and everyone should be happy. By the way, glad I made the call to limit the telemarketers from bugging me. Got sort of tired and aggravated with Buckmaster' s repeated calls trying to sell magazines.:D