Sticks and stones, BF. Sticks and stones. But when you simply deride someone else' s opinion without explanation, it does make one wonder whether you have anything to say on the subject worth listening to.

If P & Y dont change the rules somebody will just start another organization with different rules. Its not like the got the market cornered do they? If they dont want to change that is fine it is up to them. What makes them the king of the hill?

So Arthur, do you really beleive that M.R. and Chuck would be reaping any more benefits by having the rule changed. Do you suppose they are both wanting to buy new bows that have higher let-off? NOT. I' d guess that they both believe that the P&Y club would have many new members join if the rule was changed. Actaully, I don' t have to guess about M.R., he has stated that that is one of his motives for the change. Now, if more members were to join, than they could increase thier annual $80,000 grant money by who knows how much. And that would benefit all hunters. It might even bring some hunters together, now that wouldn' t be all bad, would it!

cyberbuck....do they have the market cornered? Well in a word....YES! PY is the authority, PY has been there since the beginning. A buck as awesome as Zaft' s buck went from being a potential million dollar buck as a PY record but then dwindled to nothing when the PY panel ruled it was not. So now it' s the Buckmaster' s record I hear? Who cares? But you make a good point...if you don' t like PY and their rules then make up your own club with it' s own rules but you will be hard pressed to ever carry the weight that PY does.

Howler, I don' t remember Chuck ever doing anything that didn' t have a little kickback for his own wallet. But, he' s making a living at it so more power to him. What manufacturers is he working for these days and what are they trying to sell?

M.R. James, well, maybe he' s on the up and up about it. Alterior motives are pretty easily disguised and I' m not the blindly trusting sort. He' s a voting P&Y member and I' m not, so I don' t count. I just hope he and the others of like mind listen to the people that are in favor of leaving well enough alone.

As far as membership, if they change the rules and start allowing animals taken with anything that shoots an arrow they could pick up even more members. Do you think if they did relax the standards that they' d pick up as many members as they potentially stand to lose?

Also, when you start relaxing the standards, then you lose prestige. That' s why the Buckmasters world records don' t mean diddly compared to P&Y. If those records did mean as much, then everybody and their dog would be entering their animals in Buckmasters, P&Y would be totally irrelevant and we wouldn' t even be having this discussion.

But P&Y is NOT irrelevant, we ARE having this discussion and I hope they keep things as is so they don' t become irrelevant.

I think it shouldn' t matter. A bow hunter is a bow hunter in my books. I am proud to say I am a bow hunter and have bigger and better challenges than the average gun hunter. Don' t get me wrong I do hunt with a gun but enjoy the challenge of bow hunting more. As for cross bow, I can' t comment. Here where I am from they are classed as a gun and couldn' t count here. I think P&Y is a bow hunters catigory and as long as you bow hunt you should be able to enter.

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Most people would probably drop their load if they found out the bows they hunt with that are less than 30" long don' t meet the rules either. But it doesn' t say in the rules if that 30" is axle to axle or total length, including wheels.

You' re saying all those things are unfair? You better slide into your flame retardent underwear because I think you just took the flamethrowers off my butt. THANKS!

Arthur: WHO ARE YOU KIDDING?!

But that is actually a great commentary on why P&Y is acting like a bunch of blockheads who want the " old days" to come back.

But first, with regard to golf...

Golf is probably the most lenient with regard to letting technological advances into the sport. We have gone from wound balls that did not even used to be perfectly round a few years ago (Ben Hogan told a story of having to find round ones in a box of a dozen). We had no synthetic materials, no titanium covers with liquid cores. A wood was just that...WOOD...not oversized titanium. No graphite shafts, no weighting of drivers so that the center of gravity was lower allowing for a higher, longer shot, no perimeter-weighted irons so that shots hit off center can travel a long ways down the fairway, no long putters, no mallet putters....need I go on? Oh, that' s right. They still don' t allow tour players to wear shorts! Now THERE is a rule maintaining the sanctity of golf! A recent article in golf digest pointed out that most tour pros now hit drives AN AVERAGE of 23 yards longer than a few years ago: Vjay Singh hits his about 28 yards longer, Nick Price about 25 yards longer, just to name a couple mentioned in the article. The reason? 90% of it due to technology getting better!

As far as " intense regulations" ...well...if you call that intense, then I propose that P&Y get just as " intense" . You' re right, Arthur, golf is getting " more and more popular" because they don' t enact a bunch of silly rules about equipment to make things harder. Now a lot of people who would have given up on the sport because they aren' t blessed with super hand/eye coordination are able to play a decent round of golf due to forgiving equipment, instead of being frustrated. THAT is why the sport is getting more popular! If P&Y ran the PGA, I' m sure we sould not have ever seen Big Bertha drivers, or any other big-faced club. Perimeter weighting? Hmmm! Sounds like a crossbow...oops! ...I mean, unsporting.

And I' m sure had the PGA acted that way, golf would NOT be as popular as it is today.

Mahly13: Bingo!!! So where are the defenders of " fair chase" at P&Y on those issues?

Bowdacious, you put it best:

Personally I really don' t care but I wouldn' t mind it going up to 75%. Then that would make my Darton Maverick legal P%Y that is.

Brian