Belle Island, the guys trying to make it into a traditional vs modern debate are the ones that are wanting the rule changed and are trying to discredit the entire idea of keeping things as is.

OBVIOUSLY I agree that going from trad to a compound is a bigger step than going from a 65% letoff to an 80% letoff. How much bigger step will it be from an 80% letoff to a DrawLock? How much bigger step would it be from the DrawLock to the crossbow? How much bigger step would it be from the crossbow to one of those arrow firing rifles? From there to ???

It doesn' t take much imagination to see that all those little baby steps can walk us right out of an archery season.

About your 75% letoff bow... I' d bet most everyone can shoot a scoped .270 better than they can any bow, right? Since they shoot a rifle better, does that mean we should want P&Y to accept gun kills too?

Bowfanatic, thanks ever so much for you input. Have you got an intelligent response to it or were you content to try and top it?

Actually, I guess there is a third group that I should have mentioned that come to the forums and try to discredit the entire organization. Those that have a profit motive based on something that does meet P&Y' s rules. Canned hunts. Equipment that is disallowed. Stuff like that.

They need to change it, that rule is dated. get with the times & let the hunters enjoy the equipment they want to shoot & still have a shot at the books. More & more hunters could care about the books now days & would rather shoot an 80% bow.

P&Y - get with it, even Chuck Adams is pushing for this old rule to be changed!

I have owned compounds in several letoffs (40%, 50%, 65%, 80%), over the years. I am presently hunting with a 65% letoff bow (because I like the way it feels and shoots AND for p&y reasons). For the experienced shooter I don' t think there is any difference in the shootability for 65% or 80% letoff. I have nothing against 80% letoff, it may help newbies and marginal shooters wound less game(or not)[X(]. Although i personally think that the differences in effectiveness in the woods may be small, when you' re talkin rules, you have to draw a line somewhere. 65% letoff is as good a place as any to draw that line. The Pope & Young club catches a lot of grief over it and people say they are behind the times,but when they set the limit at 65% everybody was shooting 50% letoff bows. The limit has to be set in stone because if it moves where will it end up?lasers? nightvision? backpack missles?.......



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kimandavid, and others with similar responses are correct...IMHO. The last few years have brought light years of technology that should really have some sort of limits. I agree that the various clubs are beneficial and I belong to several, but the game of inches in deer hunting is de-focusing many hunters off of what the sport is actually all about.

I would take an old narly rack with tons of mass that just missed the books over a clean thin racked buck that did make it. To each his own, right! :-)

Well Arthur, read into what I said how ever you want. When I said that I don' t give a hoot what they do, It' s true that I don' t give a hoot what they do on this topic, 65% or 80%, I don' t really care. You must be filling a little insecure yourself knowing that you are in the minority on this subject. By the way, I do have a clue what the club has done for bow hunting, they have made killing big antlered and big skull capped animals big money business. Oh, I can' t say that is all they have done, but what else are they known for. Huh, I can' t remember. My mind must be slipping me, you know, me being an selfcentered ingrate and all, and now I' m loosing my mind too. Let' s see who is for changing the rule. Chuck Adams and M.R. James for starters. If P&Y wants to stay a small private org., heck, that' s thier choice. But I beleive that they could do a heck of a lot of good for the sport if they had more money(more members), but until they except change, this selfcentered ingrate will watch from the side lines as they dwindle into an even smaller private org. Good hunting to all this fall, especially those with 80% let off bows

Arthur, I agree, a line needs to be drawn somewhere, but where is the question. Sure, a drawlock and crossbow should not be allowed. You must have to actually draw the bow. There' s no comparison b/t those two and an 80% letoff bow.

For some reason they think that with higher letoff bows you can hold the bow at full draw for long periods of time while waiting on the game to offer you a perfect shot. I know with my 75% bow I can' t pull it back and wait five minutes for the buck to get within range and offer a great shot. I' ve had many 65% and 80% let off bows, and its really not that big of a difference.

By the way, when I said I could care less about P&Y, I meant this rule. Obviously I do appreciate and acknowledge the work they' ve done for bow hunting. However, when I' m trying out different bows, the last thing that enters my mind is whether or not it is P&Y legal, I' m going for the best fit. The rule will change, it' s all about the bottom line.

Ha ha ha! The day companies quit making 65% or lower let off available bows will be the day some will return to the stick bow, including me!

The only people whining about P&Y not allowing bucks into the book are those shooting higher than 65% let off bows. Pope and Young is not destroying itself, the people who do not meet their requirements are! Play by the rules or don' t play.

Why should Pope and Young change because the manufacturers change? This would be a moot point if the mfgs. never made a high let off bow. The one and only reason they do is to sell bows!

Belle, according to you there is not much difference between 65% and 80%. Then why don' t you shoot a 65% let off bow to meet their rule?

Howler, so many off the wall comments. Where to start...

We' ll start here. Who says I' m in the minority? Besides that, if I in any way felt insecure, I wouldn' t be on this forum stating my views.

If you really don' t give a hoot what P&Y does on this issue, then why did you even open this thread and get involved in it???

P&Y hasn' t made killing big heads a money making business. That' s the work of bozos that are in the business of making money and know full well how human greed works to put dollars in their pockets. They don' t give a hoot about the future of bowhunting. As long as they can line their wallets, they' re going to do it. If it kills off bowhunting, they' ll just go looking for the next victim. But if that' s all you think you know of P&Y, then I have to repeat that you don' t know the first thing about what they' ve done for bowhunting.

I agree, lets look at who is in favor of changing the rule. Chuck Adams and M.R. James. Chuck and M.R. both make their living directly from the industry. Remember me saying something about profit motive?

There are just as many that thrive on human laziness and the current obsession with instant gratification as there are that thrive on greed. They know that if they can make a product to take some challenge out of a challenging pastime, they' ll sell a buttload of that product. How many products have come out in the past 10 years that fit that description and have really become popular? How about scentlock suits, high letoff bows, carbon arrows, mechanical broadheads, designer camoflage, fiber optic sights, lazer sights, holographic sights, heat seeking game finders.... Need I continue or do you get the idea?

P&Y is a small private, not for profit club. What the heck do you want them to do? Become a major corporation with stock traded on NYSE?? We' ve already got enough of these profit oriented ' clubs' that bilk hunters out of millions of dollars a year don' t we? Before you go saying that P&Y could do some good if they had more members, I suggest you educate yourself about the club and find out what they really do.

Here' s a good place to start:

www.pope-young.org

I' m not arguing traditional vs modern. That argument was lost 30 some years ago when the compound got legalized. But I AM arguing that totally discarding all of bowhunting' s challenges and traditions in the interest of buying a better chance to shoot a deer with a bow is WRONG.

Buckeyebuckhntr, Montana has an 80% max. let-off. and says that variations in draw length and or draw weight can effect the percent of let-off on compound bows.
Its kinda like an unforceable law.
I was told if you shoot a P/Y with a bow that has more let off than 65% or if a game warden cheques your bow for the allowable maxamium draw weight , all you have to do is " not" pull back all the way, therfore decreaseing the maximum draw weight. CHEAT.!!!
Txhunter I had the moduals changed from 75% to 65% on my TRX, so that I can qualify for a nice record class P/Y or state record, but I do know that my bow meets the critera without playing games.
If you can' t play by the rules then don' t play and enter it in the B/C where they accept roadkills. Bobby

WOW! What a debate. The ones " whining" about needing to go to 80% are the ones who shoot over 65% (lightning strikes) The ones who DON' T want it changed are the ones shooting 65% or less (WOW again!)
Couple of questions for those for and agains' t.
1: if you shoot 65% why do you CARE what I shoot, and if MY buck should be allowed in? YOU didn' t shoot it, I did! And I had to hold my bow at full draw (point being even at 99% let off, soon as you stop holding, it shoots!), and put some blades into the vitals (aim).
2: Why would you REQUIRE someone to have to hold more weight at full draw? Seems like you might be able to make a better shot if you could hold the bow longer and didn' t feel like you HAD to shoot the animal because you couldn' t hold back any longer. WHY wouldn' t we WANT clean kills?
3: Do P&Y buck care WHAT % let off you shoot? It almost sounds like you' d think the big bucks come running to 80% let off bows! You STILL have to hunt, see the animal and draw hold and aim. longbow/recurve/compound all the same.
4: would it be ethical to tell people you can' t use sights? A release? aluminum or carbon arrows? Do we REALLY want the average hunter out there trying to shoot like that? NO! then why can' t those who CHOOSE to shoot 80% be in " The book" as well?
5: Why is P&Y " THE" book? (as compared to Buckmasters) I' ll answer that...P&Y was there FIRST! NOT because they (the hunters in the P&Y book) did ANYTHING more impressive than the guys in the Buckmasters book.
6: What is technology " doing" to archery that some " hate to see" ? You don' t like to see archery companies stay in business? Must not, otherwise we' d all buy (or make) a longbow or recurve, and some cedar arrows and be happy forever (LOL)
Simply put, the P&Y book is outdated, and restricts honest, ethical archers from posting magnificent animals they worked long and hard to harvest. Don' t like 80% let off bows? DON' T BUY ONE!!!
IF (HUGE IF) I would ever take a P&Y buck, all the scouting, all the practice, the fighting off buck fever after perhaps calling the monster and making that perfect shot would be concidered " not good enough" to some (P&Y and those who like the rules cause it matches what THEY shoot). To them, I ask who IS the self centered one?