All though this thread I forgot to ask one question. I had heard that Bowtech was once Oregon. Right or wrong?

Coug,
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the only thing that the 2 companies have in common is their R&D guy Kevin Strother(sp?) who designs their cams etc.........and from what I gather he's pretty darn good at it.

I see where you are going with this one Coug (you're a tricky one!)......but I don't think one thing had to do with the other in this case.
I think Oregon bows was a bad company who had a really good R&D guy......simple as that. A good design does not MAKE a company's success.
I'd be willing to bet that if BowTech didn't have Kevin Strother one of the big name manufacturers would......and maybe we'd be discussing the speed of Mathews bows right now.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Another short BowTech &quot;PATRIOT&quot; report......
(I'm pulling these from various sites when I find them)
&quot;Predator&quot; gets the credit for this quote....

<font size=2>&quot;I talked to the guy at one of my local dealers (carries Matthews, Hoyt and Botech) who was at the show and shot all the bows.

He was VERY impressed with the Patriot - said it was comparable to a Q2 or the new Legacy from Matthews but was a faster, harder hitting bow. He said it was probably the bow that got the most attention at the show and that Bowtech was signing up new dealers like crazy who wanted to carry it.&quot;
</font id=size2>

Sounding better every day isn't it??

Edited by - Matt / PA on 01/28/2002 23:14:42

Thanks.
Dylan

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;--------o--&gt;

Edited by - 55#recurve on 01/29/2002 00:07:23

Never mind, I have had a look for myself. $649 american for the black knight, that is $1020.00 or so canadian. OUCH, guess if I want a bowtech it's gonna cost me. Don't know if Im ready for that kind of price for a compound yet. Already spending alot for a Recurve. Good shooting.
Dylan

>>>>--------o-->

Hey Matt/PA, I hope you are satisfied, now I gotta go shoot one of these STUPID Bowtech`s, just to see what all the fuss is about? I only have 10 compounds left, so I might as well look at another one! You should be getting a bow report from an old &quot;has been&quot; shortly.

Oregon made a fantastic bow, but suffered from poor management after the original owner was killed in an accident.

They were extremely high quality, and thier limbs were some of if not THE best out there. The were one of few manufacturers who claimed to have carbon in their limbs who actually did, and it was a failry significant amount.

They were very fast apples to apples, extremely quiet, and built like a tank. They did tend to go through bushings a little fast.

Oregons new onwer ran them into the ground with his arrogance, and extremely high pricing structure. He had a great product and wanted to price them beyond reason even for the quality. He screwd alot of the original Oregon sales reps, and dealers in the process. Dealer cost on the original Black Knight w/ Z2000 machined riser was in the high $500 range in 1995. the cast riser models sold for around the $500 mark. hard to sell a 500 smcker cast riser bow, and a $750-$800 machined riser bow in 1994 or 1995.

AFAIK, Kevin designed only the last year or three of their existence, though I could be mistaken.
Fantastic Bows, I really miss the company from a product standpoint. One of my local gun shops still has dozens of Oregon BK's and Qriser BK's as well as other models on his shelves (The fellow who used to run the archery shop died, and he's too high onthe bows to move them). IF you have never seen an Oregon BK decked out in target colors, you owe it to yourself to find an old catalog. Prettiest compound bows I've ever laid my eyes on,and I mean that, every other target color bow I have seen pales in comparison even the old Mountaineer and Proline bows. These things were all hand painted/sprayed. Intricate spider webs on the limbs, American flag bows, beautiful 2 and 3 tone color fades, matching stabilizers and overdraws.

One of thse days I might break down and buy a couple from this guy, I do miss the original BK.

JeffB

Matt,

There are a few things that I want to address. (Seriously and humorously)

First, to answer some of what you posted earlier. It is too early in the year to go fishing...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Two, I did understand what you were referring to about comparing the Havoctec to another, heavier TEC bow....and it does make perfect sense to a certain extent.(discounting the differences in the TEC riser design between bows)

Three, the Versacam is Hoyt's fastest single cam right now (not counting the Redline which is only available on the Hypertec). It definitely isn't an arrow burner but the adjustability of the cam is its major selling point. The Excel cam (similar to a Mathews Straightline Maxcam) is Hoyt's smoothest single cam.

Four, I have seen the new Doinker stabilizers made for the Hoyt bows (matching camo, etc...) but I haven't tried one yet. You know darn well that I usually have an Enhancer 2000 with regular enhancer on there...or the Tranquilizer shorty, or Hoyt's Vexor Mini..... Certain combinations of these balance the bow perfectly, so I haven't seen a need to change....yet...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.

Fifth, (and here is where it is going to get dicey ) ofcourse the Tec29 is going to shoot faster than the Havoctec Versa. They are almost two totally different animals. This goes back to that discussion we had when comparing the original Havoc Redline to your Mighty Mite. And, come one now, with a 28 inch draw any bow is quiet....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

The Tec29 has a brace height that is at least 3/4 of an inch shorter than the Havoctec Versa at 6.75 to 7.5 inches respectively. Second, the Tec29 has a much &quot;harsher&quot; cam. When I say &quot;harsher&quot; I mean that the draw cycle is stiffer...not necessarily rough.

Which brings me to my last point..... Dylan (55# recurve) made a statement up above that you addressed but that I think needs further clarification.

As you stated, the Bowtech lineup offers some very fast...and some extremely fast bows. They accomplish this, apparently, in two ways. One, is to have low brace heights on some of the models...and &quot;average&quot; brace heights on most of the others. The only model that I remember seeing with a &quot;high&quot; brace height was the Stalker which, if I am not mistaken, had a brace height around 8 or 8.5 inches. But then, the speed was pretty much equivalent to other bows in the same axle to axle length/brace height range.

Now don't get all excited, I am not saying that Bowtech gets their speed primarily from low brace height bows...but rather that it is somewhat of a factor on their &quot;extreme speed&quot; bows like the BK2 and Extreme Solo. Their &quot;low speed&quot; bows with mid range brace heights appear to get their speeds from the draw cycle of the cam(s) itself.

That is nothing new. Everyone has pretty much stated that Bowtech's cams have a stiffer draw cycle when compared to similar ones on the market. It is the exact same thing that happened with the Perimeter weighted single cam when it first debuted. PWS cams were able to utilize a stiffer force draw curve when compared to the dual (hatchet) cam bows that were on the market because they didn't have to worry about cam synchronization as much as the dual cam bows did. String materials weren't then what they are now and maintaining synchronization was much more of a tedious issue. So, Walla!, a faster, quieter cam that doesn't have synchronization issues.

Now, Bowtech takes that a step further and makes the draw force curve even stiffer (steeper). The peak draw weight is reached much more quickly in the draw cycle and it is maintained over a much longer distance. The result is a faster bow.

Again, this is nothing new. You, yourself, stated that if the draw cycle was too harsh for some folks at their usual draw weight then they could turn the draw weight down to a more &quot;comfortable&quot; setting and get the same speed with a lighter draw weight.

That makes it sound cut and dry.......but I don't think it paints the whole picture.

Lets say that &quot;Johnny&quot; usually shoots his perimeter weighted single cam bow at 65 lbs but he gets a Bowtech bow with their Infinity cam on it and finds that he can't pull it as comfortably at 65 lbs as he can his previous bow. So, he turns it down to 60 lbs to make it &quot;easier&quot; to draw.

He will get the same speed as before...right? Right. Wow, Johnny thinks that is awesome. He can get the same speed from a 60 lb Bowtech bow that he needed to use 65lbs for on his old bow.

But what Johnny is failing to understand is that he is now pulling that 60 lb draw peak weight over a longer distance of his draw length. In other words, he might have been pulling 65 lbs over 4 or 5 inches of the draw length before with his old bow (hypothetical number) but now he is pulling 60 lbs over an 8 or 9 inch distance to get the same speed.

So, what it really boils down to is either Johnny pulls a heavier draw weight for a shorter duration of the draw cycle or he pulls a slightly lighter draw weight for a longer duration of the draw cycle.

....just engineered a little differently.

Now, because their cams go to peak weight sooner and maintain it over a longer distance they are able to help store and release more energy....meaning a faster arrow. That increase in energy has to go somewhere and rarely does the arrow actually absorb all of it.....hence the reason that their bows were a tad louder and had more handshock than comparable models......which is the reason why they added the sand filled limb pockets....

...but then that adds more mass weight to the overall bow.....which can add to stability and increase accuracy but also makes it heavier to carry.

Now, I don't want anyone to think that I am coming down on Bowtech. That was not my intention when I posted this. My intention was to just show that the age-old saying of &quot;you don't get something for nothing&quot; is true. There are trade-offs. The only way that any company is going to be able to increase arrow speed without compromising forgiveness, accuracy and a smooth (rounded) draw cycle is by using new, more efficient materials for both the limbs and the string/cable.

I apologize for rambling so much.....especially to you Matt...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited....I reworded a couple parts because I didn't want it to sound sarcastic.

Edited by - PABowhntr on 01/29/2002 11:39:55

Jeff,

I haven't seen any Oregon bows but have heard of them.
They sound very interesting.
How do you rate their quality against the Accu-Riser, Merlin, and Red Man Bows ?
I always felt, the SuperStar in target colors was the best looking bow of all time. If you feel, the Oregon was better looking than any bow they must really be impressive. What make limbs did they use ?
It would be cool if anyone had a pic of one they could post here.
Later, Jeff.


Sag.

Hello All,

Re: the McPherson/Pearson models. I do indeed mean raw arrow speed, especially models w/ the RF (now the Whisper) Cam. That may or may not be a negative to some folks, especially when one considers how smoothly and easily they draw or how quiet they are. It was not a “jab” at them, merely an observation.

Frank brings up some great points, and all correct if we look at them in a cut and dried mechanical fashion. However I do wish to comment on one item that probably needs to be seen in a different light (and not because I’m trying to be a Bowtech fanatic, this is in regards to the way our muscles work)

Re: The statement about pulling more weight over a shorter period of time vs. a lighter weight over a longer period of time

We must remember in the “real world” how our bodies, and momentum works. The hardest part about getting a weight of any sort moving is the initial thrust required to get it into motion. Once the weight is moving it is much easier to direct or have it continue said movement through momentum.

E.G. Moving a heavy piece of furniture over a rug by “swinging it back and forth”: the initial push is what is difficult about moving it. Once it starts to move, it’s relatively easy to get it to the next place we have to set it down (though often this action requires many starts and stops).

Same with pulling an item like a big bag of sand along the ground: the initial pull is the difficult part, but once it’s moving, it’s fairly easy to move it for a ways till we need to stop, and start the process over again due to fatigue in the muscles.

In the case of the bow that peaks quicker and peaks longer but is lighter in draw weight, the advantage is clear compared to the bow that requires an initial harder “push” due to an increase in overall peak weight. Since the draw weight has been reduced on the first bow, the initial pull (which is the hardest part of the draw w/ the human physique and the way our muscles work) is easier, and the longer peak is fairly inconsequential AS LONG AS the archer has a correct draw length for his physical makeup.

Of course there is an opposite &quot;resistance&quot; in that the bowstring wishes to return to brace compared to a bag of sand, however the principals are similar.

And there you have the “HuntingBBS Human Physiology/Momentum Lesson” for the day

JeffB


Edited by - JeffB on 01/29/2002 13:30:15