HuntingBry, Great post!! The only things I disagree with is 1st. Like most here, I have studied, attended seminars, courses at PSU. and read every thing I could on the whitetail deer since I was 12.
And 2nd your Pittsburgh Pigeons avitar.Lets Go Flyers!!
Like you I have hunted numerous states over the years and have never witnessed a herd that the inmature bucks did not participate in the rut or witnessed that their breeding behavior was surpressed because of the presence of older age classes of bucks. Pike

What?!?! If it had a negative effect on the rate of population growth than it is limiting the population.

If it affected the population's growth rate then it is clearly not insignificant. I notice you did not respond to my claims on lack luster antler growth in the area.

You can't make the claim that no wmu has a deer density of over 30 dpsm, considering I have evidence proving my immediate vicinity holds 100 dpsm.

HAHAHHA, I love it.

Huntingbry, great post, I really appreciate your feedback.

Pike, I agree that you're not going to see a sharp decrease in rutting behavior by immature bucks; if you think I suggested otherwise I apologize, it was unintentional. My argument (opinion only) is that the cumulative effect of stress will be less in a healthy population with a natural breeding ecology. I agree that the fighting and chasing done by immature bucks may increase; my argument is that in the grand scheme there will be less stress than in an overpopulated herd with a limited number of bucks.

Pike...you definitely opened my eyes that I need to be very careful when selecting sources to support my point; you can't always take something for face value.

I'm very satisfied with the way this thread turned out. My goal was to urge people to at least consider stress as part of the conversation when it comes to the pillars of antler growth (I should not have limited it to breeding stress). The current conversation accounts for age/genetics/nutrition. As pike eluded to earlier in this post, genetics plays a very small role; and is often not a limiting factor. I am under the opinion that stress should be ranked above genetics when it comes to antler growth. However, I realize more research needs to be done before this will become widely accepted.

Good post and you made some valid points. You said I have an agenda so may I ask what you think my agenda might be. Thanks.

Pike, I was not trying to insinuate that you have not reached out to educational resources, just that you have gained more from your personal observations. My apologies if it came off as otherwise.

As far as the "Pigeons" go LOL, they hoisted the cup while the Flyboys cried in their beer. The Flyers need to fix their goaltending issues if they want to go anywhere this year. Then again Carcillo will probably take so many penalties Carter and Richards will be exhausted by playoffs again.

Glew, I definitely agree that stress plays a part in antler development. BTW, I haven't forgotten about contacting you, it will just have to be after the holidays. Way too much going on.

Valley Forge should only be used as an example of how not to manage for deer. I spend quite a bit of time in and around the park and the bucks that are there are definitely short of their genetic potential. You will see bucks in the park that are 4.5+ years old and only in the 120" range if that. You go to the outlying areas of the park and the 3.5s are P&Ys and better. They have fewer does to compete with for food and despite being in a suburban environment have less stress factors from humans even though they can be hunted in some areas.

No, that is simply is not true. Just because a factor limits the rate of population growth ,doesn't mean it limits the extend to which the population will increase.

Yes I can make that claim because I am referring to the average density in the entire WMU, not the DD in a specific area.


I didn't bother to respond to your comment about the antler growth ,because it was a personal opinion rather than a documented fact.

Since you claim to have all this knowledge about the effects of stress, let's see it if can apply it to the real world of deer management in PA. Can you tell us how many DPSM it would take to provide enough stress to affect antler development in 2G and 5C?

How much knowledge do you have on the effects of genetics on antler development? Are you familiar with the results of studies on genetics and antler development at the Kerr Institute? Have you read the article," Spikes are Not Inferior or Are They"? Have you read the reports on ARs from Miss.?

I disagree that VF should only be used as an example of not to manage deer. There is no valid reason why it shouldn't be used as an example of the true carrying capacity of the habitat in the majority of the state. It provides an irrefutable example that shows how ridiculously low the PGC DD goals were for 5C and 5B.

How do you know those bucks were 4.5+ years. The only accurate way to age deer is to examine a cross section of a tooth?

Honestly I have no idea, but I do get the impression that you are opposed to the HR and ARs that the PGC has implemeted.

I don't disagree that the DD goals in 5c and 5b were way too low. I don't think they ever intended on achieving those goals, but I believe they had to state the goals as being that low to justify some of the kill-offs they were having elsewhere in the state. There is, however, a valid reason VF should not be used as an example of carrying capacity of the majority of the state. For one thing the majority of the state does not have the open space per acre providing browse. There are acres upon acres of field that are frequently cut to provide fresh growth. This is not available in the ratio of woodlot to field in the rest of state as it is in the park. Secondly, if you saw these deer you would not feel that it is a healthy herd. Many of the deer are emaciated, visibly diseased (with sores and/or growths), and look in poor condition. Additionally, most does seem to only drop 1 fawn in the park. While this is speculation as fawns may die very early on it is very common to see does with 1 fawn in the park.

Some of the bucks I know from seeing them year after year, others are educated estimates. While it is true that the only way to know for sure is with a tooth cross-section, there are some that I know are 4.5 and older.