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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: MichaelT. The point of my input is ....... that percentage wise, when crossbows came into the picture, we did not double the total number of hunters..... we did not add to it by 50% even..... we did not even add 50% of the total number of bowhunters........ to the total number of hunters....... you just made our point for us..... There was not some God awful explosion of crossbow hunters that raped the state, and there was NOT a significant number of gun hunters who decided to then bow hunt with a bow of any kind..... So I believe all of your purported scare numbers are overestimated ...... and what you think is laughable here in Arkansas is fine by me, cause we are managing our resources well, we are not over hunted , we don't have tons of slob hunters in any season, and we still welcome the additional hunters in any season or catagory..... so who is really doing the better job here...... 4 tags a year AND we have crossbows..... maybe your state should be listening to us.... You don't hear we Arkansans crying out loud do ya??? bye the way, heres a tissue..... MET |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Believe me Matt, I am duly educated enough to know how many zeros that is, but thanks for your expert explaination of numbers..... I am amazed.
And I appreciate the invite to have input into YOUR forum..... your parents must be proud of all your accomplishments. MET |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: MichaelT. Believe me Matt, I am duley educated enough to know how many zeros that is, but thanks for your expert explaination of numbers..... I am amazed. And I appreciate the invite to have input into YOUR forum..... your parents must be proud of all your accomplishments. MET Just want to make sure the full scope of geographic and demographic differences between Arkansas and Pennsylvania is fully understood before I start breaking those raw numbers down even further into population vs. actual huntable land etc. If anyone from ANYWHERE still feels that Arkansas is a model for what we should do here in PA just based upon raw numbers alone, please speak up. ;) Just tokeep it fresh ineveryones memory: ARKANSAS: You have 241,000+/- resident HUNTERS You have 48,000 +/- "archery" hunters You live in a state with a total size of 53,179 sq, miles with a population 2,673,400 people which = 51.34 people per square mile PENNSYLVANIA We have 1,000,000 resident hunters +/- We have 278,000 bowhunters +/- We live in a state with a total size of 46,055 sq miles with a total population of 12,281,054 people which = 274.02 people per square mile |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Matt / PA ORIGINAL: MichaelT. Believe me Matt, I am duley educated enough to know how many zeros that is, but thanks for your expert explaination of numbers..... I am amazed. And I appreciate the invite to have input into YOUR forum..... your parents must be proud of all your accomplishments. MET You're very welcome and yes they are........:D Just want to make sure the full scope of geographic and demographic differences between Arkansas and Pennsylvania is fully understood before I start breaking those raw numbers down even further into population vs. actual huntable land etc. If anyone from ANYWHERE still feels that Arkansas is a model for what we should do here in PA just based upon raw numbers alone, please speak up. ;) Just tokeep it fresh ineveryones memory: ARKANSAS: You have 241,000+/- resident HUNTERS You have 48,000 +/- "archery" hunters You live in a state with a total size of 53,179 sq, miles with a population 2,673,400 people which = 51.34 people per square mile PENNSYLVANIA We have 1,000,000 resident hunters +/- We have 278,000 bowhunters +/- We live in a state with a total size of 46,055 sq miles with a total population of 12,281,054 people which = 274.02 people per square mile |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Matt PA does have 2 Undisputed Kings also[8D] ;) |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Let those who are afraid, and selfish, prove themselves by their arguments.
You blast away with those numbers, we in Arkansas still arent the ones crying...... Why, our hunting is real good down here , and we like bringing in new hunters.... Sounds like you're right, you should model us....... oh wait, never mind, you can't do things the way we do , and be scared too..... Crow , Matt, crow ..... pride goeth before the fall... MET BTW... you are the one choosing to live in a state with 6X the population and 25 % of the annual deer tags ..... so which one of us is smarter....... again, here's your tissue. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: MichaelT. Let those who are afraid, and selfish, prove themselves by their arguments. You blast away with those numbers, we in Arkansas still arent the ones crying...... Why, our hunting is real good down here , and we like bringing in new hunters.... Sounds like you're right, you should model us....... oh wait, never mind, you can't do things the way we do , and be scared too..... Crow , Matt, crow ..... pride goeth before the fall... MET The only chance I have of modelling PA after your beautiful state (and I mean that :)) is to become the "King of PA" and exile 10,000,000 people to Arkansas where YOU can deal with them and welcome them into the population. Of course your not the ones "crying" and hunting is good, overcrowding is not an issue ,and you welcome new hunters.........the numbers pretty muchtell methat in plain english.:eek: It's not crying man, it's FACTS. The fact is you can't compare PA to Arkansas. Cross that one off the list because it's not possible. The only thing PA and Arkansas have in common is that we both have people who hunt, beyond that the numbers pretty much dictate the fundamental differences. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
They are nothing more than another weapon to use and enjoy the great outdoors. End of story
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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
the P&Y club I'm guessing |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Oddly, I never see a whole lot of comments about what we've got being darn well good enough and encouraging manufacturers to put on the brakes. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
I just jumped in here on page 25... Didn't read anything before that nor do I plan to....
Just dropping this.... 56% of Ohio archers hunt with an X-bow...... 56%...... I wonder how many of those guys would stop bowhunting if X-bows were taken out of Ohio's archery season... I am willing to bet a lot.... I am also willing to bet that PA's archery season would be a clustered mess if they introduced X-bows into their archery season.... Their archery dates already suck and I am sure they would be shortened further.. IMO introducing X-bows into PA's season would be terrible for the quality of hunting. There would just be to many people in the woods.... No two ways around it. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
How much of PA is private or leased ground. Don't think that the numbers on that ground would change much. To me, the issue seems to center on how folks feel that it will impact some of the more accessible public ground. If it is that big of an issue to that many people, then they shouldn't have any trouble launching a major petition drive to oppose the legislation. If they can't, then so be it.
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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
You blast away with those numbers, we in Arkansas still arent the ones crying...... After reading the guys' (Xbowproponentsfrom states other than PA)'sarguments (regarding PA).....it reminds me of a bunch of old MEN sitting around deciding what a woman's rights are are with her own body. Easy for you to say, huh? |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
The main deal behind P&Y's 65% rule was to provide 'a clear and demonstrable difference' between compounds and crossbows. That clear and demonstrable difference has been erased, at the overwhelming insistence of bowhunters. If you go back through bowhunting history, back to 1970, and analyze bowhunter success rates, you see a 4-6 point jump every few years. Each of those jumps, every single one, coincides perfectly with a new advance in compound technology. Now, the technology is so good that there is no statistical difference between bowhunter succes rates and crossbow hunter success rates. So, if allowing the crossbow is going to cut your season, beware the next advance in compound technology. It will put compounds over the top and will be more of a threat to your season than the crossbow would be. very good thought process there Arthur P Oddly, I never see a whole lot of comments about what we've got being darn well good enough and encouraging manufacturers to put on the brakes. Money is the reason behind it all. Without continual additions to equipment, marketing stalls, sales stall ..... heck even Fred Bear knew this and that was why he pushed so hard to be a " two season hunter " that doesn't make it good, bad, ugly etc, its just the way it is I've taken a whole lot of grief over the years on this forum because of warning about the runaway train we've been riding and where technology is taking us. With many states reviewing crossbows' legal status and allowing their unrestricted use in their archery seasons, I find my long held stance to be finally and fully vindicated Here is where I've come. I hunted compound for 12-14 years and hated crossbows. I semi-switched to a recurve/longbow over the past 5 years and between that and being challenged on interenet forums to PROVE why I disliked crossbows ...... I realized they truly are just another close range hunting bow. Arthur I'm with you on stopping technology BUT only when it becomes a negative to bowhunting. Can you honestly say that all the technology is BAD for bowhunting right now and if so, why and how ? I see it that we're losing hunters because the quality of the experience and the current direction of the deer managment plan is driving people away. Lets make that experience WORSE and drive MORE away huh? You might BELIEVE that, but its only your opinion. I think its just the nature of the world, losing contact with our hunting heritages. Many reasons- quality hunting isn't one of them because we've got the best hunting EVER as an overall view. Plus, at no time EVER have crossbows made anything worse. Matt / PA I'd say your management plan maight be to take the pressure off the deer during peak breeding? Give us an honest increased opportunity, not an imaginary one by simply including a weapon that doesn't belong or work here. OF course that's all just educated speculation and I'm the only one not allowed to speculate on what will happen here. My arguments are silly and unfounded as analyzed by hundreds and thousands of miles away. sigh Matt / PAyou have fears, I understand that but you HAVE to reason them and base them in fact and if you can't, its nothing more than the monster in your kids closet at night. That monster isn't there, its not real, but the FEAR is until you convince the kid that its not using fact and reasoning. Your monster in the closet is the crossbow, I'm trying to turn the lights on and open the door to SHOW you its not real and my facts are looking at all the other states and how crossbows have impacted them. Its all we have, its the template to look at and its not what you think it is. They are both held and aimed the same (But the crossbow actuallyhas the advantage of a good scope) they can both be ready to go all day long with no need to draw or hold in the presence of game You can THINK you have me painted in to a corner BD but you shouldknow after too many years here that youknow your right, Iknow I'm right and neither of us is EVER gonna change that no matter what we say to each other. The difference is that I LIVE HERE. So you might as well quit all the fancy quote quote quote this state that state crap because I know what I believe is right for THIS state just like you do so it's a stalemate with us two.........it always has been. you are wrong, people DO change - I use to HATE crossbows, I use to be pro-abortion, many people change .... and your own fellow statesmen are changing it. WHY are they changing is what you have to ask yourself and get outside the box and figure out WHY. when you do that, when you gather all the facts THEN you can make your decision. When you've done that, you can also debate the issue with facts and reasons. That you cannot do that right now proves you believe in something that is baseless in fact. All they need to do now to participate is pick up a regular compound, recurve or other approved bow gads more P&Y rhetoric - all the compounders COULD pick up a trad bow too, but they didn't and never wanted to, they wanted easier, faster and better. YOU wanted all that at one time too Matt, only recently going trad yourself. We're gonnaMOVE hunters into the archery season, kill more bucks in the archery season with an easier to use weapon and then we're all gonan be crying in our cereal bowls the morning of Oct 29th 2011 when we are done archery hunting for the year. crying because your tags are filled ? Matt / PA look at the numbers you posted - crossbows DID NOT being in tens of thousands of bowhunters from gun season in my state of Arkansas, exaclty OPPOSITE of what you fear !! What about the P&Y club Duane? If it wasn't for them chances are we wouldn't have the rights we do today as bow hunters. They have fought major battles for us to do what we've been doing for many years. They are our biggest protectors of bow hunting and all you can do is shove your dirty hands down there throat and **** about them. Talk about greedy!!!![:@] Keep biting the hand that feeds ya!! Thats real smooth man!! I can blast the P&Y club all I want to. They are anti-hunting as far as I'm concerned with their anti-crossbow zealoit attitudes. They are dividers, not representatives of anything but their own precious concerns, the epitomy of selfish IMO. At one time they had their purpose but today, they are on the outside looking in. They have failed, factions have splintered off, the club has torn itsself apart in previous years. I've read much about it, I don't like the taste it left either. Their anti-crossbow stance WILL change, they WILL accept them eventually or they will die as an organization. Too many people have realized the idiocy of that particular pet peave stance over the last decade. IMO buckeye hows the quality of hunting in Ohio with the evil crossbows out there ? GMMAT Facts and Proof - can you give me ANY that says don't allow crossbows ? ANYTHING AT ALL EXCEPT OPINION ? |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Based on comments by some of the PA members, I don't think that the "women" really have a consensus of what they want to do in terms of their rights in this matter. So, its getting discussed, with a little input from people with experience in states where the matter has been dealt with in the past.
Are you saying PA members are girls?  |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Lanse couche couche How much of PA is private or leased ground. Don't think that the numbers on that ground would change much. To me, the issue seems to center on how folks feel that it will impact some of the more accessible public ground. If it is that big of an issue to that many people, then they shouldn't have any trouble launching a major petition drive to oppose the legislation. If they can't, then so be it. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: GMMAT You blast away with those numbers, we in Arkansas still arent the ones crying...... After reading the guys' (Xbowproponentsfrom states other than PA)'sarguments (regarding PA).....it reminds me of a bunch of old MEN sitting around deciding what a woman's rights are are with her own body. Easy for you to say, huh? Like I said PA and MI are similar. I would rather give my fellow hunters a choice. To me that is what it comes down too. If the DNR of MI is for it, and health of the heard is not harm. What is wrong. Matt has made some points, but there is 0 DATA to back them up. It's all speculation on both sides;) |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Your monster in the closet is the crossbow, I'm trying to turn the lights on and open the door to SHOW you its not real and my facts are looking at all the other states and how crossbows have impacted them. One state's just like another, ......right? Based on comments by some of the PA members, I don't think that the "women" really have a consensus of what they want to do in terms of their rights in this matter. So, its getting discussed, with a little input from people with experience in states where the matter has been dealt with in the past. Are you saying PA members are girls?
You do bowhunt, right? |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
If the doe slaughter hasn't gotten enough land posted, this little gem will be a regular gold rush for poster sales.[:-]
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RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Was that the only three people that have ever tried to sneak on that land?
If numbers of hunters are declining and you make an effort to increase those numbers, then i think that obviously there will be a corresponding statistical increase in episodes of tresspass or poaching. Not a good thing, but neither is it an argument against increasing the number of hunters in terms of game management and perserving the sport. And based on the differences in arguments, its kind of obvious who the guys are that have the experience with naked gals[8D] |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
And based on the differences in arguments, its kind of obvious who the guys are that have the experience with naked gals[8D] |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Or maybe it was my reply that went over your head[8D]
I will leave the battle to you guys. I am heading out in a bit to get ready for a weekend on the Great Miami River with Kevin1. You fellas have a good weekend and try not to beat on each other too much. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Or maybe it was my reply that went over your head[8D] |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Understand where your coming from. No these werent the only people I have ever kicked off. However, it was 3 hunters 1 season 1 weapon. CROSSBOW. Left a bad taste in my mouth. I think it gives gun hunters more of a tendency to hunt archery. And if you live in PA you know (despite what the game commission tells you) there is no shortage of hunters! Drive past state game lands during gun season, sea of orange! GUN hunters and BOW hunters are a different breed to a certain point and in major ways. Nothing against the gun guys, more power to you. But I am sure they would like if I didnt gun hunt, and I like they dont bow hunt. Makes for better odds for the hunter. By all means use crossbow during gun season so you can hunt a little closer to dwellings or get permission to some private land. But do we really need x-bow hunters during archery????
YES I AM SELFISH and dont want x-bows open to all archery, unless warranted by handicap etc. I dont mind calling myself selfish. IMO crossbows are not a good situation for traditional bowhunters. PS. Ive had plenty of naked gals. Look at me I'm a stud! Anyone got any tape? Because Im ripped! :D |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
I can blast the P&Y club all I want to. They are anti-hunting as far as I'm concerned with their anti-crossbow zealot attitudes. They are dividers, not representatives of anything but their own precious concerns, the epitomy of selfish IMO. At one time they had their purpose but today, they are on the outside looking in. They have failed, factions have splintered off, the club has torn itself apart in previous years. I've read much about it, I don't like the taste it left either. Their anti-crossbow stance WILL change, they WILL accept them eventually or they will die as an organization. Too many people have realized the idiocy of that particular pet peave stance over the last decade. I guarantee Big D it would be much easier to show facts of the good they do rather then the harm. There isn't a perfect organization out there. There's always something someones not going to like, thats human nature! Whether you like it or not the P&Y club fights for your ass and your rights as a bow hunter. Yes Big D, your rights as well!! Your to selfish to realize that though I'm guessing. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Ill leave the numerical facts to the guys we pay salaries to with our tax money. Ill hold onto my personal experiences and Ill continue to stand behind my opinion. I am pretty sure the ****heads that tresspassed on my land with their couple week old crossbows were in wrong. Pretty sure the law says so as well. I stated my experience with the subject as everyone else did. You singled me out, congrats Ill send your trophy in the mail.
Yep to selfish to want x-bow hunters hunting my land.Also dont like the idea of them opening it up to theentire state.To selfish bc I have had a bad experience with it. So be it. Hope your mood gets a lil better smile its friday. No need to pick on "big D" :D |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Germ ORIGINAL: GMMAT You blast away with those numbers, we in Arkansas still arent the ones crying...... After reading the guys' (Xbowproponentsfrom states other than PA)'sarguments (regarding PA).....it reminds me of a bunch of old MEN sitting around deciding what a woman's rights are are with her own body. Easy for you to say, huh? Like I said PA and MI are similar. I would rather give my fellow hunters a choice. To me that is what it comes down too. If the DNR of MI is for it, and health of the heard is not harm. What is wrong. Matt has made some points, but there is 0 DATA to back them up. It's all speculation on both sides;) |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
PABuckbuster12if they'd been carrying compounds you'd want compounds banned too then ?
Your experience was an oddity, of trepassing nature and they'd have done that with or without a certain choice of weapon YES I AM SELFISH and dont want x-bows open to all archery, unless warranted by handicap etc. I dont mind calling myself selfish. IMO crossbows are not a good situation for traditional bowhunters. You typed "IMO" - what is that opinion based on ? Using your logic, I could say the guys shooting compounds who trespassed on my lease in Arkansas warrants banning compounds from archery season - true or false ? You ask everyone else for proof on what they say so lets see your proof on this matter!! I want facts, not BS!! Show me!!!! Lets see it!!! Back your talk up!!! Prove to me with facts they've done bad!!! I want to see facts saying they've lost a ton of members because of there stance and beliefs!!! |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Sliverflicker ORIGINAL: Germ ORIGINAL: GMMAT You blast away with those numbers, we in Arkansas still arent the ones crying...... After reading the guys' (Xbowproponentsfrom states other than PA)'sarguments (regarding PA).....it reminds me of a bunch of old MEN sitting around deciding what a woman's rights are are with her own body. Easy for you to say, huh? Like I said PA and MI are similar. I would rather give my fellow hunters a choice. To me that is what it comes down too. If the DNR of MI is for it, and health of the heard is not harm. What is wrong. Matt has made some points, but there is 0 DATA to back them up. It's all speculation on both sides;) And a crossbow hunter has hunted and killed a deer on our farm:) I am surrounded by gun hunters, so my stance may put more pressure on the deer I hunt, but to me more people in the woods is not a bad thing. What I see happing is most of the compound(half) shooters buying an Xbow. Being the way most of them shoot, the deer will thank us[&:] Is there anysound sciencereason in MI(PA jump in if you want) to not allow xbows in achery season? Is there any reason besides "more people will hunt" If someone can show me data where it harms the herd, and not their hunting, I am all ears. |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Germ Is there anysound sciencereason in MI(PA jump in if you want) to not allow xbows in achery season? Is there any reason besides "more people will hunt" |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
I'm not switching subjects for you Shultzy - start another thread |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Germ ORIGINAL: Sliverflicker ORIGINAL: Germ ORIGINAL: GMMAT You blast away with those numbers, we in Arkansas still arent the ones crying...... After reading the guys' (Xbowproponentsfrom states other than PA)'sarguments (regarding PA).....it reminds me of a bunch of old MEN sitting around deciding what a woman's rights are are with her own body. Easy for you to say, huh? Like I said PA and MI are similar. I would rather give my fellow hunters a choice. To me that is what it comes down too. If the DNR of MI is for it, and health of the heard is not harm. What is wrong. Matt has made some points, but there is 0 DATA to back them up. It's all speculation on both sides;) And a crossbow hunter has hunted and killed a deer on our farm:) I am surrounded by gun hunters, so my stance may put more pressure on the deer I hunt, but to me more people in the woods is not a bad thing. What I see happing is most of the compound(half) shooters buying an Xbow. Being the way most of them shoot, the deer will thank us[&:] Is there anysound sciencereason in MI(PA jump in if you want) to not allow xbows in achery season? Is there any reason besides "more people will hunt" If someone can show me data where it harms the herd, and not their hunting, I am all ears.  |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Great post Jim, but I see no data:D
As soon as a disease creeps into the SW corner in MI, baiting will be banned. You can take that one to the bank. I happen to know a baiter who uses a Xbow, I have dragged out a few deer for him. All he's done in his life is: Served in WWII Be faithful to his wife for 56 years, she died last year Raise his family without taking a dime from goverment Attend every grandkids sporting event and award dinners Work for years with a bad shoulder so his family can eat, now suffers a lot of pain for it. Sucked down so much asbestes(sp) his lungs are now damage. Be a servant to God. Some may see him as xbow hunter who hunts over bait, I see him as my hero;) |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Good post Germ. I retract my stance some. I am not against all crossbow hunters. Just the few that will be the bad apples. (Ones ive encountered so far) But then again i guess there are a few bad apples in bow and gun. We've seen that. I stand corrected and will have a somewhat neutral position till "Facts" are brought up.
And what Jim said about bad shots and wounded deer is also correct. That is not one of my concerns, I dont want to know the number of deer that die and are unrecovered bc of bad shots with bow, gun, or crossbow. Thats the old kick in the chest! |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: Germ I happen to know a baiter who uses a Xbow, I have dragged out a few deer for him. All he's done in his life is: Served in WWII Be faithful to his wife for 56 years, she died last year Raise his family without taking a dime from goverment Attend every grandkids sporting event and award dinners Work for years with a bad shoulder so his family can eat, now suffers a lot of pain for it. Sucked down so much asbestes(sp) his lungs are now damage. Be a servant to God. Some may see him as xbow hunter who hunts over bait, I see him as my hero;) POST OF THE DAY !!! |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Sir king
I think were all against "bad" hunters. The weapon any hunter chooses does not make them "bad", only their character and medthods of hunting do that. There is a certain % of the hunting community that is well intersting:D We live in a free country, and it is great, but what we tend to forget is we have to accept the way others choose to practice their freedom;) |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Also, and observation......
For those who keep insisting on not wanting more hunters joining the ranks, because there are too many already ...... I would hate to be your kids, and know that Dad is going hunting, but that He will never take me because he doesn't want me there...... he wants it all to himself..... or what about grand kids ........ Or is that not really the case at all ...... you will teach anyone and everyone in your family BUT it is everyone else you don't want out there........ My Lord, how selfish ..... no matter how which way you say it...... BTW .... those deer and all that land are not your own personal playground ..... they belong to everyone. And if you are really serious about too many hunters and wanting your own playground , then buy yourself 500 or 1000 acres, and you will never have to worry about anyone shooting your deer again... Problem solved. God Bless MET |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Gary your very lucky to a man like that in your blood line,Give him my best.
If any of you still don't understand why many feel the way we do you should come to any of the local shops and watch all of the so called handicapped hunters tuning up their xbows.;) |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
ORIGINAL: If any of you still don't understand why many feel the way we do you should come to any of the local shops and watch all of the so called handicapped hunters tuning up their xbows.;) Many people who are fit draw disability checks. Perhaps that is also all you need ("declared" disabled) to get a crossbow license in PA. Sounds like the best of both worlds:D:D:D |
RE: Opinions on Crossbows
Jim I sold them at Cabela's;) Trust me I know[8D]
I'll never forget the guy who bought two arrows on Sept 30th, season opens Oct 1st "I need two arrows, one for practiceandone for hunting" [8D] |
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