Elephants
07-04-2008, 06:05 AM
#22
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7,876
RE: Elephants
What's the point of posting a thread stating you couldn't shoot X animal? Seems to me your on a crusade to get others to do the same. 
Prosperity is a tough thing to live with.
That statement isproventrue enoughwhen you compare the poor African to the affluent American.It's a product of a country. If ya don't want them shot I'm sure the African government will be willing to go along with anyone, just pony up the cash needed to replace what they get for them hunted. It's a product, a renewable resource like corn. The intelligence of either is irrelevant unless it can be sold/used for the public's goodsuch as the way Hannibal of old used them, andI am in no way advocating irresponsible behavior so don't go there.
The fact that they're not stupid makes them a desirable animal to hunt although many (and some here) have claimed their big dumb animals that just stand there to be shot with cannons.
How do you know that elephants know themselves in a mirror, do they fix there hair or check to see if their butts are getting bigger?
Prosperity is a tough thing to live with.
That statement isproventrue enoughwhen you compare the poor African to the affluent American.It's a product of a country. If ya don't want them shot I'm sure the African government will be willing to go along with anyone, just pony up the cash needed to replace what they get for them hunted. It's a product, a renewable resource like corn. The intelligence of either is irrelevant unless it can be sold/used for the public's goodsuch as the way Hannibal of old used them, andI am in no way advocating irresponsible behavior so don't go there.
The fact that they're not stupid makes them a desirable animal to hunt although many (and some here) have claimed their big dumb animals that just stand there to be shot with cannons.
How do you know that elephants know themselves in a mirror, do they fix there hair or check to see if their butts are getting bigger?
07-04-2008, 07:08 AM
#23
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Southern MD
Posts: 2,520
RE: Elephants
ORIGINAL: MountainHunter
But I could never hunt elephants, because of some of the things I have found out about their high level of intelligence and sensitivity (like the “funeral rites” they perform when a member of the herd dies, their greeting other elephants they have not seen in a decade or more, etc.).
But I could never hunt elephants, because of some of the things I have found out about their high level of intelligence and sensitivity (like the “funeral rites” they perform when a member of the herd dies, their greeting other elephants they have not seen in a decade or more, etc.).
Perhaps elephants have "funeral rites" because the rest of them will not be killed and eaten by the lions/crocodiles/leopard/cheetah/etc. that killed the one that died
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07-04-2008, 11:34 AM
#25
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 753
RE: Elephants
nodog:
What's the point of posting a thread stating you couldn't shoot X animal? Seems to me your on a crusade to get others to do the same.
The point, as I said in my original post, and I repeated in another post, was to share a wonder of nature with people I thought would appreciate it. And, as I also said:
I understand why they need to be culled in certain circumstances. I just would not get any joy out of doing it, so I leave it for others to do this necessary work. And, if it brings them pleasure, then it's a win-win (except for the elephants who get killed, I suppose, although I am sure the heard and local populations of people are probably better off in the long run).
I just thought I'd share some of the magnificence of these amazing creatures with other nature lovers.
I just thought I'd share some of the magnificence of these amazing creatures with other nature lovers.
nodog:
How do you know that elephants know themselves in a mirror, do they fix there hair or check to see if their butts are getting bigger?
How do you know that elephants know themselves in a mirror, do they fix there hair or check to see if their butts are getting bigger?
Actually, you’re closer than you might think. What they do is they put a mark over each eye with some sort of crayon/marker or somesuch. One of the marks is clear and the other is colored. Then, later, they put a mirror in front of the elephant, and the elephants touch their trunks to only the colored mark (not the clear one), rubbing it, etc., trying to figure out what it is and to get it off. This means they know that they are looking at their reflection.
07-04-2008, 11:35 AM
#26
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 753
RE: Elephants
brucelanthier:
Just so I understand: The animals that you do hunt, do you hunt them because they are not intelligent and sensitive like elephants? Do you hunt deer because they are stupid, insensitive and cannot paint pictures?
It’s a bit more complicated than that, and I won’t go into details here. But, it’s against my spiritual beliefs to kill something that I believe has above a certain level of consciousness (or that I think might have a conscience), unless it’s in self defense or in order to prevent myself from starving, etc. I don’t believe deer or turkeys are at that level. And deer are real nuisance in Virginia, where I live, and they taste really good.
I understand that elephants are a real nuisance, and in some cases a danger, where they live, but I don’t live there. I also don’t know if they are good to eat. And I think there is a possibility that they have a level of consciousness that they might have developed a conscience. The funeral rights, and some of their other behavior indicate to me that this is a real possibility, so I don’t want to hunt them myself. I understand the need to hunt them in certain circumstances and respect the rights and desires of others who choose to hunt them legally in those circumstances. As I said, I think it’s a win-win situation where there’s a need and a desire to do something that needs to be done. I just don’t have the desire (or the money) to do this thing. There are plenty of people who do, and that’s great for them.
07-04-2008, 11:47 AM
#27
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: IL
Posts: 6,575
RE: Elephants
Few things ive noticed....really how do we or can one really tell if they have a conscience or not? They certainly are a nusence in some areas, and I believe almost all of the meat is used by local villages who are rarely eating meat, so certainly a good source of nutrition to them.
I don't see any moral problem with taking an elephant vs a deer etc...because they may or may not have a conscience, isnt' thta what they claim seperates humans from anaimals, animals operate on purely instincts vs, thinking/rational? personally I think humans are just another animal on the face of the earth, most likely the most intelligent I would argue to say.
I do hear time and time again about hunters who are "less fortunate" than those "more fortunate". While some may be born with more to start etc...at some point there comes a time when you're responsible for yourself and youre own future and well being. If it was only money that one saught money is certainly possible to make. I think its much more easy to put down someone who's wealthier as being born with a silver spoon, than it is to admit that maybe they worked harder/smarter than the guy who simply takes his 9-5 job and makes his 50k/year.
If my goal in life was to hunt elephants in africa and I need to make 100k/year to do so, I would do so, not be miserable for not having the money to and put those who can down for being able to. Now I don't live in lala land either, and I know its possible, but never said easy, but with the drive and knowledge/plan to earn money, you certainly are able to make agreat living in this country. I really think most americans are content and happy just kinda living in life, not really striving for more, they're happy enough with the family and friends, and their salary, and have accepted the fact that they will never hunt elephants, because they simply are content with where they stand in society and where that place is, is one that doesnt allow them to hunt elephants.
I don't see any moral problem with taking an elephant vs a deer etc...because they may or may not have a conscience, isnt' thta what they claim seperates humans from anaimals, animals operate on purely instincts vs, thinking/rational? personally I think humans are just another animal on the face of the earth, most likely the most intelligent I would argue to say.
I do hear time and time again about hunters who are "less fortunate" than those "more fortunate". While some may be born with more to start etc...at some point there comes a time when you're responsible for yourself and youre own future and well being. If it was only money that one saught money is certainly possible to make. I think its much more easy to put down someone who's wealthier as being born with a silver spoon, than it is to admit that maybe they worked harder/smarter than the guy who simply takes his 9-5 job and makes his 50k/year.
If my goal in life was to hunt elephants in africa and I need to make 100k/year to do so, I would do so, not be miserable for not having the money to and put those who can down for being able to. Now I don't live in lala land either, and I know its possible, but never said easy, but with the drive and knowledge/plan to earn money, you certainly are able to make agreat living in this country. I really think most americans are content and happy just kinda living in life, not really striving for more, they're happy enough with the family and friends, and their salary, and have accepted the fact that they will never hunt elephants, because they simply are content with where they stand in society and where that place is, is one that doesnt allow them to hunt elephants.
07-04-2008, 11:57 AM
#28
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,061
RE: Elephants
All animals have traits and personalities. All are unique in there own way. But it is our job to manage the population of some, in order to keep the population healthy. Hunting and trapping are sports, but to me its a job. One which I realy enjoy,and if I can resolve an animal conflict without killing anything I do so. Sometimes I do need to put animals down, It is also part of the job. I think it would take a strong stomach to kill an elephant, but its gotta be done sometimes Im sure.
08-03-2008, 06:36 AM
#30
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Erie, Colorado
Posts: 1,530
RE: Elephants
There's a lot of speculation here-much of it based upon emotion ("I also don’t know if they are good to eat. And I think there is a possibility that they have a level of consciousness that they might have developed a conscience. The funeral rights, and some of their other behavior indicate to me that this is a real possibility"). If I teach a parrot torepeat words,does it have a higher level of consciousness? Could it defend me in a court of law?Perhaps it's merely repeat/learned behavior? I would love to see an elephant save its money, deposit that moneyin a bank account for the future, jump on a plane, fly to the US, and hunt me. Then I would agree. If you don't want to play, stay on the porch. Let the folks with all the facts manage things.
Salukipv1 and Furgitter...good posts.
Salukipv1 and Furgitter...good posts.