While I don't have the facts in front of me, I'd have to say that "statistically" a 150in deer in Ill. or WI. or IA. Etc..is considered a "top end deer". Are there bigger ones? Sure, these are big buck states after all.

The same can be said about PA or NC or VA etc..."statistically" a 115in deer is a "top end deer" in those states, just what Fran was trying to say.

I said I'm sure Illinois has more of their "top end deer" than PA does....the operative word being "their" and not just "top end deer" in general.

Really do not know what people are arguing about.....160" in my area is where the bucks get scarce. I have seen(w/ my eyes and/or trail cam) 3 deer in 8 years of hunting that would push or break the magical 180 mark...and I have spent a ton of time in the woods in and out of the season. The biggest shed I have found (out of about 80 total in that time) was half of a 150 class eight point....in other words, the big ones are not that common. Now for the confession: I have seen only one 160+ deer in the last three years in my area - it measured 161.

Although I do not live in those states, but by looking over record book entries.... I would think 150 is on the light side of a "top end" buck for those areas.... Big yes.... Top end? I really wouldn't think so.

In my area the air is getting pretty thin on 150 class bucks, but I would say you are looking more at 160+ to be considered top end.

IMO a top end whitetail isn't the "buck of a lifetime" It is a buck of many lifetimes....

This could be true... But I really have no idea... PA has a lot more deer than IL... But %age wise IL very well may be ahead in that department.

I didn't read through all the pages.. just the original posting.. so I have no idea what everyone has or holds to their own opinion.

I also have never made fun of another dude who kills any buck of any size.. to each his own.

I also know that location is a HUGE key in taking a big whitetail... in any state.. region.. county.. and right down to property lines.

But I will say this.. as an accomplished shed hunter who knows a thing or two about shed hunting.. and shed hunters.

Fran, I love you, but these 2 statements (I quoted above) are completely innacurate.

Don't get me wrong.. I know location is key. But it isn't and shouldn't be held to state or region.. but rather property line. Although I hunt in Illinois and Wisconsin.. I have very VERY little property to hunt in each. One thing shed hunting will teach you... the difference in property lines is HUGE.. and I know that this is the greatest reason why many truly will never kill an older deer.

In my area of Southwestern PA, I would say that there is a somewhat decent chance to get a 160" buck. I know of several taken within a few miles of my property that exceed that with one being a 190" class. The big guys aren't common, but they aren't common anywhere in this country! I see dozens of bucks each year that would break the 130" mark, they are there, finding them isn't the hard part, getting permission to hunt them and actually hunting them is the tough part.

I agree Scott and I might be willing to add a few inches to the 150 number but I just listed 150 because like you said in some states the air gets a little thin above 150. I think where we differ is in our definition of top end. I don't necessarily believe a top end deer needs to be close to a record to be a top end buck.

All we can do is look at the statistics that we have and they are as plain as day. Year in and year out (for whatever reason) as a whole the big buck states produce and the states like PA, NC, VA, etc...don't. I for one don't believe it's from a lack of trying on the hunters parts, I believe those bigger (150 Plus) deer just aren't as abundant as they are in say Illinois as an example. Therefore it only stands to reason that their "criteria" for a "top end" or "trophy" deer will also beproportionatelydifferent than my states criteria.

Later bud.....time to cook, will check back in tonight.

I think a lot of this boils back down to "realistic chances".

Surethere may be afew deer that push past 115" 2 year olds in Fran's neck of the woods....BUT he obviously feels that his chances of actually connecting on one, given the effort heputs in(which is a lot)aren't realistic. Therefore why should he wait on a "statistical anomally". Fair enough.

Then I think another item lost in translation is the "top end" thing. Some view top end as what's available realistically in an average year, others call for the absolute best an area can produce, ever.

PA's age structure is horrible, and its probably the best its ever been at this point in time.

I do not think the state of PA (or I should say western half of PA) should be compared to NC, VAand such.

Like I posted earlier.. PA is #8 in P&Y entries as of 2004 (the latest update I could find).... Right between Minnesota and Texas.... I am willing to bet PA has climber higher since the 04 year as well..... Theyare putting out more entriesthan Kentucky, Montana, The Dakotas (combined), Nebraska, Michigan etc.

I 100% agree on all parts of this quote.

I believe you are correct here...

I consider a top end whitetail a buck that would fall into the top 5-10% or soof mature bucks killed in your area each year.

This is a very true statement.

I understand that in Illinois you probably have a better shot than in PA.

But I agree 100% with Scott, Gary, and a few others.. that when you start hunting for older deer.. thats when you start seeing them.

I've hunted in the past on properties I didn't think a good buck ever ran... only to find as I got older.. that they in fact did use it. Now I know what to look for.. and how to look at it... and always expect to be hunting an older buck.. on any property.. despite usually never seeing it. It's like a mind trick really. The mind see's what it wants to see.

Sorta.