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RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: huntingson This is kind of off from where the conversation is now headed but... My father is quite honestly the absolute best hunter I know or have ever met. I could qualify that statement all day, but to save time I won't. I consider myself a darn good hunter. The last 5 years we have both hunted our farms (neighbors) with severe intensity. We take bucks from here that other guys don't believe are around... With that said, I know there are bucks here bigger than what we see consistently. How do I know this? We found a buck skull (antlers dropped and we never found those). The buck has apparently died from an infection in his jaw as the bone was almost completely eaten away from the inside out. The teeth were all SMOOTH and warn down to almost nothing. I have never seen a buck this old on hoof or on a camera, yet he lived here, bred here, died here. I don't care how good any of us are... they are better at survival than we are at hunting. There are bucks the live breed and die on our farm, and I never see them. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
I'll try to keep this short and simple.....
I get a kick out of these threads where guys from different parts of the country are arguing about xxx" deer and why they can/can't kill them. Way too many people on here are a little dense to the fact that big racked bucks don't live everywhere. Why is it that we keep putting xxx" on a trophy buck? In fact, age is what makes a deer a trophy class animal. Personally, if Jeff kills a 110" 5.5 year old in NC and Greg kills a 145" 3.5 in Il, Jeff's deer is way more of a trophy. Seriously, why is it so hard to understand that it is all about location? Seriously. Once more, seriously. I would be interested to see in this fall's contest the age on the deer that are being killed and how that relates to location/region. One last time.....age is a bigger determining factor in a trophy than rack size.....plain and simple. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
One last time.....age is a bigger determining factor in a trophy than rack size.....plain and simple. I assume the "bigger trophy", the 6.5 year old? Not me ;) |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: buckeye One last time.....age is a bigger determining factor in a trophy than rack size.....plain and simple. I assume the "bigger trophy", the 6.5 year old? Not me ;) My point is that some guys think a xxx" buck lives everywhere in the country. To me, if we're going to compare regions, age is a better determining factor than rack size. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Personally I don't look at inches.. that's called vanity. When a whitetail reaches 3 or 4+ yrs. of age he's now in a different class and experience. He's "smarter" so to speak. Whether he has 50" of antler or 150" of antler he is still a mature whitetail and I will never dismiss a whitetail taken by any hunter of this caliber. Inches do not make experience and brilliance. Age is the ultimate judge. Scott: There's no wrong answer to shooting either one of them. But the same type question could be asked of you....if we simply leaveALL the inches of antler out of the scenario. Which is a bigger "trophy".....a 1.5yr old or a 3.5 yr old (or insert any age discrepancy you feel bolsters your argument)? I would "think"....to the "true" "mature buck hunter" (and not the antler hunter).....the age class of the deer would detemrine the answer. If you're an antler hunter.....you can leave the maturity of the animal out of the equation. You just happen to live in an area of the country where the two aren't mutually exclusive......but rather go hand in hand. Edit** Also..HOW MANY people can say they've shot a 6.5yr old deer.....v. a 4.5yr old? |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: GMMAT Personally I don't look at inches.. that's called vanity. When a whitetail reaches 3 or 4+ yrs. of age he's now in a different class and experience. He's "smarter" so to speak. Whether he has 50" of antler or 150" of antler he is still a mature whitetail and I will never dismiss a whitetail taken by any hunter of this caliber. Inches do not make experience and brilliance. Age is the ultimate judge. Scott: There's no wrong answer to shooting either one of them. But the same type question could be asked of you....if we simply leaveALL the inches of antler out of the scenario. Which is a bigger "trophy".....a 1.5yr old or a 3.5 yr old (or insert any age discrepancy you feel bolsters your argument)? I would "think"....to the "true" "mature buck hunter" (and not the antler hunter).....the age class of the deer would detemrine the answer. If you're an antler hunter.....you can leave the maturity of the animal out of the equation. You just happen to live in an area of the country where the two aren't mutually exclusive......but rather go hand in hand. Edit** Also..HOW MANY people can say they've shot a 6.5yr old deer.....v. a 4.5yr old? You start to realize these things when you hunt in an area that has a huge range of rack sizes in all age classes.... I have seen 5.5 yr old bucks up here that would score 80" and others that would score 160"+. Now, and I'll admit it, because I'm an antler hunter I won't shoot the 80"....I'll hold out. Does that mean the 160" buck is more of a challenge to kill? Hell no.....he was just belssed with better genetics. Edit: I read your quote after I typed this.....I thought you had quoted me and skipped over it. I agree with that author 100%. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
I think we're bickering over terminology here:
When I say "representative deer" - for my area - it's a 1.5 year old scrubrack 3x3 - or smaller. When I say "top-end deer" - I mean a deer that will put you on the leaderboard in the local archery contest. Not the biggest deer in the county. When I say "the biggest deer in the township/borough/zip code" - I'm talking about a deer that will virtually guarantee you victory in the local deer pool. When I say "the biggest deer in the county" - I mean exactly that. The biggest deer in the state - is the biggest deer in the state. The state record - is the biggest deer ever harvested in a state. Every township has a big buck, and every county has a lot of townships. Every state has a lot of counties. So, if you look at it through this lens, it seems that there are a lot of big deer in every state. But hunting them, realistically, is another thing. In my area, the biggest deer in the township is probably a 140. The biggest deer in the county is probably a 160. That said, if you shoot a 115" buck, you'll probably finish in the money in the local bow pool. That's usually around 100 local entries. So, if I hear a guy in Fayette County, PA say that he's holding out for a 140 - it's a laugh. If past history is any indicator of the present, he has a better chance of being struck by lightning. Let's just say, for the sake of argument that a certain township is 35 square miles (that's about average). 35 square miles is 22,400 acres of land mass. Do you have any idea how hard it is to see, locate, and dial-in on that particular deer? It's a magnanimous commitment of time and effort, topped off by some VERY long odds. Brace yourselves and open your minds, because His Majesty is about to take you down a road that you've never been down...  Mathematically, if your range is 30 yards... KILL ZONE= 3.14 x 90 ft (squared) KILL ZONE= 25,434 square feet So, if you're hunting a 22,400 acre area.... 1 Acre = 43,560 square feet So, if an average Township is 22,400 acres.... 43,560 x 22,400 ACRES = 975,744,000 SQUARE FEET That means that, at any given time, your odds of having the biggest buck in the township WITHIN 30 yards is: 25,434 / 975,744,000 = .000026 .0026% That's what I'm trying to say. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Hey king.....
Are your odds the same of shooting that lion.....because he resides in your township?;) As magnanimous as your odds are.....they're assuming you could hunt anywhere you pleased. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Scott: There's no wrong answer to shooting either one of them. But the same type question could be asked of you....if we simply leaveALL the inches of antler out of the scenario. Which is a bigger "trophy".....a 1.5yr old or a 3.5 yr old (or insert any age discrepancy you feel bolsters your argument)? I would "think"....to the "true" "mature buck hunter" (and not the antler hunter).....the age class of the deer would detemrine the answer. If you're an antler hunter.....you can leave the maturity of the animal out of the equation. You just happen to live in an area of the country where the two aren't mutually exclusive......but rather go hand in hand. Shoot me for saying this but I think it would depend on location..... I think a 2.5 y/o MI public land buck would be more of a trophy than a unpressured midwest 3.5 y/o.... Now back to the inches ;) A 200 inch deer is very rare... No matter the age class..... A 140 inch deer is not near as rare... Again, no matter the age class..... Regardless of age class, the 200 inch deer is more of a trophy to me as it is much more rare. In either of the above scenarios, age was not the determining factor for "trophy" statusto me. I can agree however if there is no freak status to either... A 5.5 y/o is more of a trophy than a 3.5 y/o. Point conceded. Is a 6.5 y/o NC buck more of a trophy than the 4.5 y/o Hanson buck? [/align] |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: quiksilver Mathematically, if your range is 30 yards... KILL ZONE= 3.14 x 90 ft (squared) KILL ZONE= 25,434 square feet So, if you're hunting a 22,400 acre area.... 1 Acre = 43,560 square feet So, if an average Township is 22,400 acres.... 43,560 x 22,400 ACRES = 975,744,000 SQUARE FEET That means that, at any given time, your odds of having the biggest buck in the township WITHIN 30 yards is: 25,434 / 975,744,000 = .000026 .0026% That's what I'm trying to say. "So you're saying theres a chance?" [8D]  |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
I have shot several 6 and 7 year old bucks. Usually their racks are on the down swing all busted up and their bodies are all scared up from the 3 and 4 year old deer kicking the crap out of them. I look for 3/ 1/2 to 5 1/2 year old bucks. These bucks are at the top of their game. You can let out a grunt and these aggressive deer will turn on a dime with hair standing looking for the intruder. Aggressive, big racked, mean, dominant bucks. The ones after you shoot when your walking up on them your praying they are dead. Its all about the rack to me period. The half racked 7 1/2 year old buck I shot a couple of years back didn't even come close to the emotions I felt when I shot that big racked 3 1/2 year old.
When we have our hunting contest wescore by rack size not age. All who enter are hoping for the biggest racked buck they can get. Lets keep it real guys. Big racks are where it's at and they have to be there for you to have a chance to get one. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Huntingbry I know where a number of big bucks (none in the 150's, but some pushing 140")bed and travel very close to a property I hunt. The problem is there is no hunting allowed in their core area. Believe me, I have tried every conceivable way of ethically and legally trying to get access to the land and been denied. My only hope is that a doe will get hot and come onto the property I hunt and come by my stand while I am in it. The fact that you can see them in a non pressured environment is not surprising. If in fact you were allowed to start hunting that property, the big boys would seem to disappear there as well. In a matter of days, not weeks. But they would still be there.They are quick to adapt to the amount of pressure that they experience and change their habits/behavior accordingly. GMMAT nj.....I can take you to a spot within 5 mi. of my house .....and if we don't see a P&Y caliber deer in the evening, feeding.....I'd be disappointed. GMMAT NO ONE can hunt this area......and what a lot of us is saying is.....they shouldn't be considered a "legitimate" "top end" barometer for our area. That's all. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: buckeye I can agree however if there is no freak status to either... A 5.5 y/o is more of a trophy than a 3.5 y/o. Point conceded. Is a 6.5 y/o NC buck more of a trophy than the 4.5 y/o Hanson buck? [/align] Now, take the 2500 miles that seperate the two places where these bucks were killed and put them on the same property.....which would be harder to kill? Sure, the Hanson buck will turn more heads, but the the 6.5 yr old is no slouch either.....no matter what his rack size is, he may not have been blessed with the genetics but I bet he's a lot smarter. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
I have shot several 6 and 7 year old bucks.  |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
The difference that im seeing is whether we have access to these top end bucks or not. If my property only holds 100-110 inch deer and If my neighbor has a 200" whitetail that lives every second of his life on his property and he doesnt allow any hunting at all. That is the top end buck in the area, not the 110 inch ones walking around my property. Having access to these deer doesnt change the fact that in that given area, they are the head of the class. Now we can all argue over whats our "area", which some of us are talking aboutcounties and some of us are talking about a few acres. My opinionsare based ona few miles surrounding each area i hunt. This is based on a buck having a home range of a mile or more, although mature bucks ranges grow smaller as they age, but thats besides the point. In theory, if my stand is a half mile from the center of a given bucks home range, he could be on the opposite side of his range, a mile from me, on land i cant hunt, but he is still in my area. Not sure that makes sense though.
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RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: quiksilver 4 guys in camo, all sitting around the OUIJA board. "Oh Mighty OUIJA - Hallowed Be Thy Name - Show Us The Way." B-O-N-E-R :D |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Is a 6.5 y/o NC buck more of a trophy than the 4.5 y/o Hanson buck? Is a 50# bull dolphin more of a trophy than an 8lb. OH Largemouth? Apples and oranges. TO ME....(since I don't hunt OH).....I'd be tickled to death with my 6.5yr old NC buck. He'sone helluva representativefor his species in my state. Would I (given the choice) shoot him (even with a half-rack)overa 110" 3.5yr old? Yes I would....and I haven't shot a 110"buck, yet. There's no right or wrong answer to these scenarios. Just differing points of view.....which is fine. I stated that I agree with _Dan (and others) on their assessments. I didnt say my outlook on what I might shoot was any different than Dan's. Given the opportunity to take a really good representative 2.5yr old from the herd I hunt....I'll take it.....even though I'm holding out (on paper and ideologically) for something a little older. If he's one of the best representative deer (which I've already defined) for my area.....I'd be happy to kill him. A really good 2.5 yrold would fit that description. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: quiksilver I think we're bickering over terminology here: When I say "representative deer" - for my area - it's a 1.5 year old scrubrack 3x3 - or smaller. When I say "top-end deer" - I mean a deer that will put you on the leaderboard in the local archery contest. Not the biggest deer in the county. When I say "the biggest deer in the township/borough/zip code" - I'm talking about a deer that will virtually guarantee you victory in the local deer pool. When I say "the biggest deer in the county" - I mean exactly that. The biggest deer in the state - is the biggest deer in the state. The state record - is the biggest deer ever harvested in a state. Every township has a big buck, and every county has a lot of townships. Every state has a lot of counties. So, if you look at it through this lens, it seems that there are a lot of big deer in every state. But hunting them, realistically, is another thing. In my area, the biggest deer in the township is probably a 140. The biggest deer in the county is probably a 160. That said, if you shoot a 115" buck, you'll probably finish in the money in the local bow pool. That's usually around 100 local entries. So, if I hear a guy in Fayette County, PA say that he's holding out for a 140 - it's a laugh. If past history is any indicator of the present, he has a better chance of being struck by lightning. Let's just say, for the sake of argument that a certain township is 35 square miles (that's about average). 35 square miles is 22,400 acres of land mass. Do you have any idea how hard it is to see, locate, and dial-in on that particular deer? It's a magnanimous commitment of time and effort, topped off by some VERY long odds. Brace yourselves and open your minds, because His Majesty is about to take you down a road that you've never been down... Mathematically, if your range is 30 yards... KILL ZONE= 3.14 x 90 ft (squared) KILL ZONE= 25,434 square feet So, if you're hunting a 22,400 acre area.... 1 Acre = 43,560 square feet So, if an average Township is 22,400 acres.... 43,560 x 22,400 ACRES = 975,744,000 SQUARE FEET That means that, at any given time, your odds of having the biggest buck in the township WITHIN 30 yards is: 25,434 / 975,744,000 = .000026 .0026% That's what I'm trying to say. What date did you shoot big boy last year? I cannot remember |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
The average top end deer wear I live is around 150 but Ive seen a hand full that would make you famous way over 200.
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RE: Big Buck Barometer
Mathematically, if your range is 30 yards... KILL ZONE= 3.14 x 90 ft (squared) KILL ZONE= 25,434 square feet So, if you're hunting a 22,400 acre area.... 1 Acre = 43,560 square feet So, if an average Township is 22,400 acres.... 43,560 x 22,400 ACRES = 975,744,000 SQUARE FEET That means that, at any given time, your odds of having the biggest buck in the township WITHIN 30 yards is: 25,434 / 975,744,000 = .000026 .0026% Your chances of having the biggest buck in the county within range at any given momentare: 25,434 / 27,878,000,000 = .0000000912. That's .00000912%. Pretty good odds, eh?  So the moral of the story here is, to shoot the biggest buck in your county, you have to be extremely, extremely lucky. Even to shoot the biggest buck in your locality, you have to have the stars align, and be fortunate enough to access the specific parcels that he's using. If you DO somehow manage to do it. You are not the norm. You are a statistical anomaly. Gary: I shot one buck on 10/19 I think. The second one was taken in the first week of November. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Having access to these deer doesnt change the fact that in that given area, they are the head of the class. There are deer in my county that I know would go 150"+. What's the problem withsomeone killing them? And if the answer is.....they're inaccessible (which it is/they are;))? Why should they be a part of the equation? That's .00000912%. Pretty good odds, eh? But.....like someone else said...... "So your SAYIN' there's a chance!":D |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
You mention the one of the top whitetails ever recorded in your question. Is a 50# bull dolphin more of a trophy than an 8lb. OH Largemouth? An 8lb largemouth is about 1/3 the size of the record largemouth.... How does that dolphin compare to the largest on record? You skirted around the question.... Which one would be a bigger trophy? I am just trying to point out sometimes somethings other than age can dictate "trophy" status. That's all. [/align] |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
A little off subject,and it shows the "geek" in me....BUT
Theoptions for size rangein the original poll played out such that its a pretty dang perfect bell curve distribution. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Second did I miss that one:D
Lets see him, is he from Ohio? |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
I am just trying to point out sometimes somethings other than age can dictate "trophy" status. If you'd made your hypothetical present a little less disparity......I'd have answered it, directly. Both are huge trophys....one to the mature buck hunter and one to the antler hunter. Now, take the 2500 miles that seperate the two places where these bucks were killed and put them on the same property.....which would be harder to kill? Sure, the Hanson buck will turn more heads, but the the 6.5 yr old is no slouch either.....no matter what his rack size is, he may not have been blessed with the genetics but I bet he's a lot smarter. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Fran... Are you seriously trying to tell me there is only one 140 class buck in your whole township? How could you even determine this? So Ryan must have killed the biggest buck inthetownship he hunts in back to back years..... What's the odds on that one? [blockquote]quote: I am just trying to point out sometimes somethings other than age can dictate "trophy" status. [/blockquote] Agree. If you'd made your hypothetical present a little less disparity......I'd have answered it, directly. [/align] |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Disparity??? Are you serious? I see no "disparity" in the question at all. Sue me. I do. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: GMMAT Having access to these deer doesnt change the fact that in that given area, they are the head of the class. There are deer in my county that I know would go 150"+. What's the problem withsomeone killing them? And if the answer is.....they're inaccessible (which it is/they are;))? Why should they be a part of the equation? I will agree that a deer on the opposite side of the county from you could not be your area, but if those 150"+ deer arewithin afew miles away, i would consider them your area. Im also only talking about Top End Bucks here, meaning in the top 10-5% percent of all the mature bucks in those few given miles. Now to answer your question, the reason i say they should be considered is cause the deer dont know where the state, county and property lines are. One could easily walk that distance and chase a doe by one of your stands during the rut. Likely, i doubt it, but possible- yes.Also, all those button bucksand yearlings that are relocated from his area, well they have to go somewhere. The genetics are close and could be there. Are they, who knows. In my opinion, a top end buck for any given area doesnt always exist every year.To use you asan example ( and my memory may be wrong), i believe that you mentioned that the only 2 mature bucks you have seen in your area were the 2 you shot. I think you also mentioned that you only saw 1 and a half year olds this past year except for the second mature buck. Does that mean that next year the top end buck for your area is a 2 and a half year old fork horn? |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: GMMAT Disparity??? Are you serious? I see no "disparity" in the question at all. Sue me. I do. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Fran one more Question
Are you willing to eat your buck tag in pursuit of a 3.5 older buck in PA? |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Dan You start to realize these things when you hunt in an area that has a huge range of rack sizes in all age classes.... I have seen 5.5 yr old bucks up here that would score 80" and others that would score 160"+. Now, and I'll admit it, because I'm an antler hunter I won't shoot the 80"....I'll hold out. Does that mean the 160" buck is more of a challenge to kill? Hell no.....he was just belssed with better genetics. But one thing to consider, and yes it is still relative to a particular area,, is that the bigger racked buck has probably been hunted much harder in years past, as I am sure he was probably ahead of his age class the year before and possibly even the year before that as well. Could it be possible (sure its possible-anything is possible), could it be plausible that the 160" deer is also ahead of the learning curve for his age in the"wood savvy" department as compared to the 80" m deer. If you passed the 80", most likley others have as well, if not in that particular year butcertainly in prior years.He has probably been a "dink" all of his life and has not been subjected to all of the "hunting" as his bigger racked contemporary. At the very least, it would seem that he had a better opportunity to reach this age as compared to others. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Scott - Davies Ford, a local truck dealership - two years ago - gave away a Brand New Pickup truck to the guy who killed the biggest buck in Fayette County in rifle seasonthat year. The deer had to be killed in the county, tagged and verified accordingly. The website is now down, but the biggest buck turned in would've been lucky to score 135. "Kill a Buck, Win a Truck." No entry fee. Just shoot your big buck and bring it down. Huge publicity stunt. Advertised all over Froggy radio.
Nothing turned in that would've even scared 150. Gary: No. I shoot the first good 2.5 I see, and start hunting other states immediately. I have hunted full seasons in PA in the past, going all the way to the last day - and I average sighting aboutone 3.5+ per year from the stand.I've hunted here long enoughto know what is realistic and what isn't. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
To use you asan example ( and my memory may be wrong), i believe that you mentioned that the only 2 mature bucks you have seen in your area were the 2 you shot. I think you also mentioned that you only saw 1 and a half year olds this past year except for the second mature buck. Does that mean that next year the top end buck for your area is a 2 and a half year old fork horn? Why would a 2.5 yr old be a forkhorn? Also....with displacement/relocation/travelers....I have no idea of what my woodsmay see come through them this fall. None. You guys take what I say in too broad a sense. I speak ONLY of the woods I'm hunting. Adjacent properties are unknowns.....for sure. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
This is a respectable buck in my neck of the woods....
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RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: 07tomkat I would have to say 110-125 up in Northwest Pennsylvania Erie County. That is about the biggest i have ever seen in my years of hunting. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Fran... Are you seriously trying to tell me there is only one 140 class buck in your whole township? How could you even determine this? So Ryan must have killed the biggest buck inthetownship he hunts in back to back years..... What's the odds on that one? Honestly, I know some of the general areas Fran hunts, and he does get screwed in the big buck department. They are fewer & farther bewteen than in the areas I hunt. If I hunted there, my standards probably would not be as high. My main hunting area consists of a 6 mile rectangular loop that I drive. If I see 2-3 "shooters" (3.5+) in that whole area, I'm tickled. Rarely, if ever are they spotted on the land I have access to over the summer, but they do show up as the rut nears.In that same loop I'll probably see 8-10 2.5 yr olds. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
ORIGINAL: GMMAT To use you asan example ( and my memory may be wrong), i believe that you mentioned that the only 2 mature bucks you have seen in your area were the 2 you shot. I think you also mentioned that you only saw 1 and a half year olds this past year except for the second mature buck. Does that mean that next year the top end buck for your area is a 2 and a half year old fork horn? Why would a 2.5 yr old be a forkhorn? Also....with displacement/relocation/travelers....I have no idea of what my woodsmay see come through them this fall. None. You guys take what I say in too broad a sense. I speak ONLY of the woods I'm hunting. Adjacent properties are unknowns.....for sure. What you just said though is what i have been trying to say. IMO a top end deer for any given area might not be and probably isnt what you are seeing and probably even have access to, but there is that very small chance he could walk by one day. Now if this discussion was what is the largest caliber deer that you have an expectation to shoot each year, thats a whole different story. |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
So you're saying I'm a statistical anomaly? Or that am I just that dang good? [8D] |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
Gary: No. I shoot the first good 2.5 I see, and start hunting other states immediately. I have hunted full seasons in PA in the past, going all the way to the last day - and I average sighting aboutone 3.5+ per year from the stand.I've hunted here long enoughto know what is realistic and what isn't. Like you I see 1 maybe two 3.5 or older deer a year the last ten years. When I first started hunting in SLP it was way different, everyone hunted in the NLP or UP. Now 60% hunting is in the SLP. Just be honest, Until you are willing to execpt eating tag suit, your odds are at just about zero |
RE: Big Buck Barometer
You WERE that dang good.... You lost big time "points" by leaving your ratchet strap at home though.... :D I bought 4 spares for this season. One in every pair of hunting pants I have, and one for the glove box of the truck. ;) |
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