RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

While I don't have the facts in front of me, I'd have to say that "statistically" a 150in deer in Ill. or WI. or IA. Etc..is considered a "top end deer". Are there bigger ones? Sure, these are big buck states after all.:D

The same can be said about PA or NC or VA etc..."statistically" a 115in deer is a "top end deer" in those states, just what Fran was trying to say.

I said I'm sure Illinois has more of their "top end deer" than PA does....the operative word being "their" and not just "top end deer" in general.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Really do not know what people are arguing about.....160" in my area is where the bucks get scarce. I have seen(w/ my eyes and/or trail cam) 3 deer in 8 years of hunting that would push or break the magical 180 mark...and I have spent a ton of time in the woods in and out of the season. The biggest shed I have found (out of about 80 total in that time) was half of a 150 class eight point....in other words, the big ones are not that common. Now for the confession: I have seen only one 160+ deer in the last three years in my area - it measured 161.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Although I do not live in those states, but by looking over record book entries.... I would think 150 is on the light side of a "top end" buck for those areas.... Big yes.... Top end? I really wouldn't think so.

In my area the air is getting pretty thin on 150 class bucks, but I would say you are looking more at 160+ to be considered top end.

IMO a top end whitetail isn't the "buck of a lifetime" It is a buck of many lifetimes....

This could be true... But I really have no idea... PA has a lot more deer than IL... But %age wise IL very well may be ahead in that department.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I didn't read through all the pages.. just the original posting.. so I have no idea what everyone has or holds to their own opinion.

I also have never made fun of another dude who kills any buck of any size.. to each his own.

I also know that location is a HUGE key in taking a big whitetail... in any state.. region.. county.. and right down to property lines.

But I will say this.. as an accomplished shed hunter who knows a thing or two about shed hunting.. and shed hunters.

Fran, I love you, but these 2 statements (I quoted above) are completely innacurate.

Don't get me wrong.. I know location is key. But it isn't and shouldn't be held to state or region.. but rather property line. Although I hunt in Illinois and Wisconsin.. I have very VERY little property to hunt in each. One thing shed hunting will teach you... the difference in property lines is HUGE.. and I know that this is the greatest reason why many truly will never kill an older deer.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

In my area of Southwestern PA, I would say that there is a somewhat decent chance to get a 160" buck. I know of several taken within a few miles of my property that exceed that with one being a 190" class. The big guys aren't common, but they aren't common anywhere in this country! I see dozens of bucks each year that would break the 130" mark, they are there, finding them isn't the hard part, getting permission to hunt them and actually hunting them is the tough part.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I agree Scott and I might be willing to add a few inches to the 150 number but I just listed 150 because like you said in some states the air gets a little thin above 150. I think where we differ is in our definition of top end. I don't necessarily believe a top end deer needs to be close to a record to be a top end buck.

All we can do is look at the statistics that we have and they are as plain as day. Year in and year out (for whatever reason) as a whole the big buck states produce and the states like PA, NC, VA, etc...don't. I for one don't believe it's from a lack of trying on the hunters parts, I believe those bigger (150 Plus) deer just aren't as abundant as they are in say Illinois as an example. Therefore it only stands to reason that their "criteria" for a "top end" or "trophy" deer will also beproportionatelydifferent than my states criteria.

Later bud.....time to cook, will check back in tonight.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I think a lot of this boils back down to "realistic chances".

Surethere may be afew deer that push past 115" 2 year olds in Fran's neck of the woods....BUT he obviously feels that his chances of actually connecting on one, given the effort heputs in(which is a lot)aren't realistic. Therefore why should he wait on a "statistical anomally". Fair enough.

Then I think another item lost in translation is the "top end" thing. Some view top end as what's available realistically in an average year, others call for the absolute best an area can produce, ever.

PA's age structure is horrible, and its probably the best its ever been at this point in time.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I do not think the state of PA (or I should say western half of PA) should be compared to NC, VAand such.

Like I posted earlier.. PA is #8 in P&Y entries as of 2004 (the latest update I could find).... Right between Minnesota and Texas.... I am willing to bet PA has climber higher since the 04 year as well..... Theyare putting out more entriesthan Kentucky, Montana, The Dakotas (combined), Nebraska, Michigan etc.

I 100% agree on all parts of this quote.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I believe you are correct here...

I consider a top end whitetail a buck that would fall into the top 5-10% or soof mature bucks killed in your area each year.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

This is a very true statement.

I understand that in Illinois you probably have a better shot than in PA.

But I agree 100% with Scott, Gary, and a few others.. that when you start hunting for older deer.. thats when you start seeing them.

I've hunted in the past on properties I didn't think a good buck ever ran... only to find as I got older.. that they in fact did use it. Now I know what to look for.. and how to look at it... and always expect to be hunting an older buck.. on any property.. despite usually never seeing it. It's like a mind trick really. The mind see's what it wants to see.

Sorta.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

First all when I post something I mean exactly what I say;)

We were only talking in our hunting areas, your state, I never stated anything about "enough". We all have choices. I make choice that I think is the best for me, we know you do the same.

The question still is the same. If you, me, John want to shoot bigger buck in our location. What we would have to do.

For me it's simple more time, and I do not have it.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I'd say thats about a perfect assessment sir. Any buck that is 125" and up will get noticed and get you slaps on the back. They are there, and while I may have never found any sheds, I don't put a lot of effort forth to find them either... maybe one or two walk-abouts.

On 500 acres last year, I got pictures of four bucks that would make Pope and Young, and another one that is flirting but I don't think quite at 170" gross....I am confident he would gross over 160" for the awards in B&C... but would fall short net because of deductions (see pictures below).... he is a trophy animal either way. I also found those two bucks that killed each other locked up right behind the club house in the pond... the final scores of those two, by the way, were 129 4/8 and 126 6/8 net. Both grossed over 130".

I put a thread up about them... there are the pictures in the first post of the thread:

http://www.hunting.net/forum/tm.aspx...&key=&#2826839

There are a few bigguns running around too.... this was one of the best... gross over 160" I'd say... net... ehhh who knows.... hard to tell... definately pretty though:

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

There is no "Alberta Bow Zone". There are two bow zones in Alberta. One is the Edmonton Bow Zone, and the other is the Calgary Bow Zone (south). See, you learn something new every day.;)

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Here Jeff I will start

Phone rang

Gary do you want in on my lease, the prices is x.

Let me talk it over with my wife and think about it.

Issues
1. Money -no problem Ihave the cash for the lease.
2.Are there deer there I want to shoot. See his book that is where he shot them all
3. Travel is 65 miles from my house
4. Time I am going to be away for weekends and not home.
5. Ease to hunt

Issue three was a big one for me, I would drive by Gas bill up a LOT. But more than bill was the time of getting there to my stand. Currently I can leave my house and be hunting in my tree in less than 30 mins. The new place would be just under two hours. Also the time coming home I would not be able to put the kids to bed.

Being away for more weekends was not going to work for Mrs. Germ or me.

Ease to hunt was even bigger. I would be using my climber, no easy climbs in hang on, no nice boat ride.

Even though I really wanted to hunt the place, it was not worth it to me from what I already hunt.

Has nothing to do with how much I want to shoot big bucks or how much I want it. It has to do with what is important to me. Is giving up what I listed above worth antler on the wall? I think not, and this is a choice we all make. My point is and always will be, we all have a choice;)

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Germ's so smart.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Very well put.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

John,
It's nice that you have your own way of breaking down your hunting experience according to pre-teen, teen, adult, middle-age and senior years. I did not know that you were only talking about "adult" years of hunting. I too roamed the woods with my dad when I was 9. However, I count the years that I had my very own bowhunting liscense as years of bowhunting experience. So that would be 41 years of experience not 43.

In the last 14 years of hunting Ill I did not shot a mature buck during 6 of the 14 seasons. Of those 6, there were some that I did see a P&Y caliber deer, I don't remember how many.

Good detective work, John. The "trophy heavy" area I was talking about was in my home town of Racine, Wi. I started hunting this area in the early '70s. At the time we were only rabbit and pheasant hunting because there weren't any deer around (at least that we knew of). We started seeing deer in the early '80s and I started hunting for them in 1983. Eight years later, in 1991, I shot my first P&Y.

You really shouldn't assume anything about my hunting, John, because you don't know. Well I'll tell you.... after the first P&Y in '91, I shot4 more P&Y class bucks in a row. Then my land was sold in '96. I had to find a new spot in Wi. In the mean time I had hunted Ill for the last 2 seasons. I bagged my first big one in Ill in '96 and mythird one in '01. Skunked in both states in '97 but doubled in '98, '03 and '04. 2004 was the last time I was able to hunt in my home county but have been hunting up north (where I want to move). So for the 3 seasons I have bow hunted Ill until successful and then went up north to hunt. So far I only got a 130" up there with my rifle. So my total is 8 with a bow in Wi and 8 with a bow in Ill and one with a rifle in wi. 17 total.

As you can see, my success is about equal in either state and have averaged taking a mature buck for each of the 17 seasons that I've been hunting them.

Well, I'm not lying..... I hope you're not accusing me of that.

Experience is necessary but not the only prerequesite for killing a P&Y. You're right John, you do have to hunt where they live (at least one of them).

I'm not about to say who is more skilled than myself anywhere, especially in other states. There are too many variables as to why I might have more inches of antler hanging on my walls. I would guess that the number one reason would be that I put in more time than most. Because if they were as skilled or more skilledthan I am, they'd certainly be hunting in a location where they had a reasonable chance of success.

John, calm down. Nobody is getting arrogant or elite. The point is, that their states do hold some numbers of these animals. If it is their goal to kill one of these animals in their home state, then they are going to have to find them.... it's called hunting.

It really does not ALL boil down to location. Location is only part of the equation, like it or not...... that's gospel. [:-]

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I would say realisticly speaking 140-160 would be considered top end bucks in my area. Every year someone gets a 125-135. Looking at the books for my county there are several 150's a ton of 130's an 140's an occasionally 160-170's. For the mostpart I can see taking an 130's to 140's any year. Any bigger than that is hopes. An I hope this will come by me this year an he is bigger than this.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

If He turns My Crank!

Then he's Big enough for me!;)

Dan

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Sorry I john I missed this one.

I have studied this a lot, and here it is.

We shoot them all before they have a chance to get big:D70+% here in MI, but I think it's way higher. In state where the numbers of older deer is high it's because of deer management and low hunting numbers.

Here is a great stat, Jeff has shot 2 bigger deer than all my family members but 1 in MI. My GrandFather has never shot a deer over 100'' in Northen MI[&:]

Matt here another anomoly in MI. John hunts state and private land in Mid Michigan. The odds in MI are 1-5000, in Mid MI they are a bit worst. The is a reason WKPTodd moved to Iowa. If you have not read John books they are great.



John's site
http://www.eberhartsbowhunting.com/

Check out his early years;)

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

YOU MUST HAVE BEEN DROPED ON YOU HEAD WHEN YOU WERE A BABY MUST BE DAIN BRAMAGE.Surely your not suggesting that location could be a factor in the success of a hunter who kills 150" class deer,could you? I mean of all the gall to suggest that all those super hunters on tv could come to your woods and not kill all the 150" class deer that you obviously arn't a good enough hunter to kill.You have got to be kidding right.I mean my phone rings off the hook ,because the drury boys want to film a trophy hunt in my 40.OH wait my bad that was the dirty boys from up the road.Ok to answer your question a whopper here would be a 140" class deer,you may even be hailed as a legend,115-130 is a good buck here where I hunt.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

John I truly think we agree:D As I said 100 times harder in PA.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Im lucky to live in the midwest and yes, we do have Big deer/bucks. Just last summer before the EHD hit my area Me my son and several buddys were watching some absolute giants via spotlight. Im talking one was possable Booner material and i have him on film but most were in an area about five miles away from my house we couldnt hunt. My buddy got some slammers on cam last year also. After the EHD came some guys i know started turning up these bucks dead in that area, and one was in the 190's and another just under that[&o]My son and i turned up quite a few dead ones in MY area as well from 120's- 150". I have killed one that went 155 net in my area also, so i have a real good idea that they ARE there :DHere isa pic of a double dropperin the other area i talked about that was NOT found deadand im hoping he is still out there even though i cant hunt him.

some sheds from my area, grossed low 180's

game cams from last year

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I understand what you are saying but in the same spirit I find it comical when those hunters in underprivileged areas consider a representative deer a trophy. It seems that they also believe if you are in a "large buck" area that they are behind every tree.

I recognize the relativity of different areas. I have killed 3 Pope and Young, probably 4 but I never bothered to measure one that could be borderline. But none officially scored over 135".

So what, by spending lots of hours and days hunting throughout a 90 day season, I willsee at least a coupleof bucks per season in the 125-135" range.

Not very often, but routine in the sense that if I put in the time and hunt smart, eventually I will have a few encounters with these type deer, most likely 3.5 yo and maybe a few 4.5 yo as well.

Yes, they are representative of my area and 95%+ of all my other buck sigthings are much smaller, but for the simple fact that I can and will eventually see one during the season, they are not trophies, at least IMO.

A trophy IMO, for my area would be at least 140" if not 150". Why? Because while I have never seen a deer that sizewhile out hunting, I have found one dead, a couple of sheds, and one on a trail camera one time and one time only. So I know they are there at least on occasion or particular years.

By my definition, a 110" may be a trophy in some areas and a 160" may not. Unfortunately, the 160" will always be given the benefit of the doubt while the 110" will be viewed with cynicism.

Paraprhasing an earlier post by GMMAT went something along the line that if you are routinely killing representative deer in your area you should be proud. Certainly nothing to be ashamed of, but does that alone constitute "trophy" status?

Where I differentiate is that I am routinely killing representative deer in my area and while I might be proud of that, I am not satisfied because I know a few, mind you a few, lurk in the area at least every couple of years if not all the time.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

You know, jack.....that's about the most stupid thing I've seen someone admit to feelingon here in quite a while.

So, now....you can presumably determine everyone's "trophy"?

Amazing......simply amazing:eek:

EDIT** - And here's MY quote (from this thread)....noting you left out a VERY important word. I'll highlight it.;)

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

If its anything like last year....I'll see over 500 deer in the fall...I'll take 2 does with bow...a doe with gun...and maybekill with BOW..a95 - 110 8 to 10 point with a 14 - 16 inch spread...but its good for me...

Golden Triangle? I was looking at them...180? WOW!

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

If you think that you (or anyone) are killing the BEST REPRESENTATIVE DEER an area has to offer on a CONSISTENT basis, that they can be killed every year (or so), then what I said in an earlier post holds true, your deer are REALLY, REALLY stupid.

But then again that is coming from me and as Forest says "Stupid is as Stupid does.":D

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

You still wanna change it around. I said best representative deer.

I guess the guys who get it done every year are hunting some real dumbass deer.:)

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Any deer that hang around a playground have to be smart.:D

J/K J/K

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I edited my last post so as to not take anyone out of text.
From my perspective,themeaning/interpretation is still the same.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

It's not that I'm "breaking down" my bowhunting years, I'm just considering the years that I was able to hunt on my own without needing someone to drive me around or put me in a spot. Sure I learned a lot hunting with my dad but my biggest strides came when I did it my self, picked my own spots, made my own decisions completely.


So......You saw 8 mature deer in 14 season and a handful of P&Y caliber deer in the 6 seasons that you didn't see or shoot a mature deer. Without knowing the exact number of P&Y deer in those 6 seasons, I can only assume that "some" means more than one so for the sake of debate I'll just divide it in half and say 3 P&Y deer in those 6 years.
By my calculations that makes it about 11 P&Y or better deer (giveor take)in 14 seasons in Illinois......pretty good if you ask me.;)


I agree....


I disagree, They could be doing EVERYTHING that you do....and then some and have a better knack for hunting than you and still not put the inches on the wall on a consistent basis. If the deer aren't there in the numbers that they are in your neck of the woods then all things (hunter wise) being equal you will end up with more antler inches on the wall.


The key word is "some" and yes I agree there are "some" P&Y and better deer and every year there are those who kill "some" of those deer. But year in and year out there is a whole lot more "some" up here than down there.;)It would be akin to asking you why you don't kill a 190in deer every year....after all there are "some" where you hunt aren't there?


Yes it is only "part" of the equation....but it's a very big and IMO themost important part of it.Hunting skill goes a long way in killing nice deer (consistently), but I've also seen or heard first hand about literally hundreds of P&Y deer or better killed by novice and inexperienced hunters over the years. Why? because the deer were there plain and simple they were there. I told a story about a kid who killed a 198in deer out of one of my bow stands during the gun season, He had never killed a deer before in his life!You will find this scenario played out year after year and far more frequently up here in the big buck states than you ever will in the states not known for big bucks. That's why they say those states aren't "known for big bucks" it's not that they don't have them, they do.....it's that they don't have a lot of them!

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

The number of mature deer that I have seen in 14 seasons would take a lot of digging around for me to find. What I do remember is that there have been some seasons of zero sightings and some as high as 12 in a single season. I've also noticed that as I gain more experience hunting these animals, my sightings seem to go up. Weird huh? ;)

You must have been satisfied on why I hadn't seen a mature buck for my first 8 seasons?

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Do you have pictures of this buck and does this guy live in Westmoreland county?

Back to your original question, I think it all does come down to knowing your area and what it's capable of producing. I answered 110-125 because to me that's a big buck. Prior to 2004, I hunted for a buck. Anything with antlers was fair game. It wasn't until November 4, 2004 that my hunting world changed.

This guy showed up behind my house.



From this point forward, I stared paying attention and over the last few years, have found out my area can produce some extremely nice bucks and it has caused me to 'hold out' for something bigger. The more I watched, the more I realized the bigger bucks were in my area. Last year I took a 7 point that I may have passed on other years but it meant something to me. But I guess my point is, I've found a spot that produces big bucks (big bucks for my area) and that's what I am looking for.

When this piece of property turns into another industrial park or a housing development, and I stop crying, then ask me this question and it may all change.

Edited to add:
Now, let me add this as well. From 2004-2006, I was seeing any number of the bucks in that range I voted for. This was because the property was a natural funnel and the house that sat between the 2 areas was for sale and primarily vacant. Enter the summer of 2007 and a new neighbor moves in and uses the farm as her own personal stomping ground for her and her dog. The for-sale vacant house also was purchased and new people moved in. Now he is a bowhunter but he is also using the entire property and sudddenly, I'm not seeing the big bucks in my backyard like I was. Luckily they still hold up in my other property not 3/4 of a mile down the road but my point is, hunting behind my house for those first 3 years was great. Last season in 7 sits, I saw 1 deer.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

IMO a good representative deer for the area is not a "trophy". When i say that keep in mind that i hunt each year hunting for a good representative for my area, which is 110-115 inches. I shot a 100 inch 8 point this year and am thrilled that i killed him. In my mind he is a trophy. In the conversation that we are having right here on this thread though, my deer was not a trophy. The largest deer that i have killed was a 115 inch 6 point, he is the only deer on my wall and every time i look at him i get a warm feeling inside me and a huge smile comes to my face. He is a trophy for me, but IMO when compared to what is out there, he is not "trophy" status. In this thread, a trophy, top end deer, monster, whatever you want to call them are not behind every tree, hell they arent even on every property.
I agree with buckeye, a top end deer to me is one in the top 10% of the mature animals in a given area. Like i have mentioned in past posts, i never thought it was possible to shoot a P&Y deer in NJ, now i know its not only possible, but hunting the right locations and hunting smart, its a goal that can be accomplished almost yearly. That being said, i have never shot a p&Y, but have seen them and muffed up my chance last year.
Location certainly does play a large factor in killing larger deer. One property that i hunt is only a quarter of a mile from another. Both are great spots and i see and kill deer in each. The one spot simply holds more large deer. Part of hunting is finding these locations. Just cause you havent seen a p&Y caliber animal on your property doesnt mean they arent there, they might just not be using land that you have access too. Now dont get me wrong, by hunting out in the midwest, i certainly think you have a Hugeadvantage in killing a p&y than in NJ, Pa, Ny, Nc, Fl etc, but for us in these lesser known big buck states, lets not sell our states short. They are here, just look at the yearly buck contests and shows in the state.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

In regards to "trophy" status.....that's all in the eyes of the bowholder. While I agree with you that "good representative" deer isn't necessarily viewed as a "trophy" by those in your area or even woods.....I stated that the designation for a "trophy" or "top end" deer (to me) was one of the BEST 2-3 representative deer for the area being hunted.

I'm not disagreeing with your opinion, AT ALL.....just clarifying why I said what I did. You're opinion on this can't be wrong.

Kudos. Congratulations.;)

No qualms with that assessment, either....as I just narrwoed down that area to be the woods an individual is hunting.

Agreed! Duke even eluded to this when he cited that "top end" could (and often DOES) be determined by a factor as seemingly insignificant as "property lines". What's a "top end" buck on one property....might be simply a "good" representative buck on the adjacent one. Not one of the "best".....but "good".

More we agree on.

Good post.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Maybe I'm mistaken, but the original intent of this post wasn't to say that there are NO big deer in a given area, but to say that if someone was stating that they are holding out for a 150+ class deer in certain areas it is likely that they are kidding themselves.

I believe that statement is true. Also, what Duke said a few pages back is very true as well. You can't say, "Well your state does have big bucks, just look at the record books. You just have to look harder." It gets down to the land available to hunt. All the way down to property lines. Last year I had been glassing a bean field where I was seeing bucks ranging from 120" all the way up to pushing 150". The problem was the area was completely inaccessible to legal hunting. I can go to the Philly zoo and see a lion, but that doesn't mean I can hunt it. I know where a number of big bucks (none in the 150's, but some pushing 140")bed and travel very close to a property I hunt. The problem is there is no hunting allowed in their core area. Believe me, I have tried every conceivable way of ethically and legally trying to get access to the land and been denied. My only hope is that a doe will get hot and come onto the property I hunt and come by my stand while I am in it.

Point is, that sometimes even if they are there, that doesn't mean you can get them.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I agree with your post 1000%. That being said though, just cause it is true doesnt mean that a 100 inch deer is a top end representative for the area. Just cause one doesnt have access to where the top end bucks are living doesnt mean that the top end bucks from their area are smaller. Gaining access to the right land is the most important aspect of shooting a monster.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

nj.....I can take you to a spot within 5 mi. of my house .....and if we don't see a P&Y caliber deer in the evening, feeding.....I'd be disappointed.

NO ONE can hunt this area......and what a lot of us is saying is.....they shouldn't be considered a "legitimate" "top end" barometer for our area. That's all.

Bry's lion analogy was spot-on.;)

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Bry,
I think you may have made the most concise and all encompassing post of this entire thread. Excellent way of putting it.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

This is kind of off from where the conversation is now headed but...

My father is quite honestly the absolute best hunter I know or have ever met. I could qualify that statement all day, but to save time I won't. I consider myself a darn good hunter. The last 5 years we have both hunted our farms (neighbors) with severe intensity. We take bucks from here that other guys don't believe are around...

With that said, I know there are bucks here bigger than what we see consistently. How do I know this? We found a buck skull (antlers dropped and we never found those). The buck has apparently died from an infection in his jaw as the bone was almost completely eaten away from the inside out. The teeth were all SMOOTH and warn down to almost nothing. I have never seen a buck this old on hoof or on a camera, yet he lived here, bred here, died here.

I don't care how good any of us are... they are better at survival than we are at hunting.