RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I went to ohio & only saw one measly forkie! [:@]

Yea I know, it may have had something to do with me not getting over there mostly until after the rut was on the downside, and forgetting my treestand belt which cost me a chance at a mature buck. Otherwise I could have potentially killed a whopper my 1st night in a tree. [8D]

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I am no monster buck expert in an stretch of the imagination, but i would say that a 140 inch buck for NJ would be considered a big buck. That being said, any buck in the 110-120 inch buck is a shooter for probably 99% of the state, myself included. NJ is no different than any other state, there are big deer all over, finding them is the key. Just take a look at your states annual buck shows. I was floored when i saw what came out of NJ for the first time. Up until 2 years ago, i thought i would have had to travel to get a pope and young caliber animal. Now i know it could happen almost any hunt (unfortunately it hasnt yet, but getting closer). They are out there, maybe not alot of them, but there are more than we care to admit.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Statistical anomalies, Scott. Plain and simple.

Rybo's been hunting Allegheny County for close to 16 years - and he's taken two big bucks. 15 years in the best big-buck producing county in the entire state, and two bucks that may not have even gotten the time of day from a guy in areally hotIowa stand. And it's not that he's doing anything wrong - Ryan's as smart and resourceful of a whitetail hunter as you'll find. That's just a commentary on how rare big deer really are around here, even in areas that are statistically the cream-of-the-crop.

He'd be the first to tell you - there are some BIG deer in Allegheny County, but they're on land that is completely inaccessible. They might as well be lawn ornaments.

Matt, Kidd - no previous history of killing giant whitetails.

Statistical anomalies. I can count the number of PA bowhunters who are consistently killing 130+" whitetails year-in, year-out . . . on . . . uhh . . . zero fingers. Sure, you put 1,000,000 hunters out in the woods, and somebody, somewhere is bound to shoot something pretty nice.

And as far as my stand-hours go - that DOES include the rut. Last year, you're right - I did spend the rut in OH, but I've been keeping logs for 4 years now. I've got probably close to 500 stand-hours logged. That includes pre-rut, rut, post-rut... And that's just the stand time. I don't keep track of scouting time, because those numbers would probablymake me question my own sanity.

Sure, PA has been producing more and more each year thanks to the AR's, but there isn't a sane man in this area who wouldn't jump on the first flight to Iowa to bowhunt the first week of November, if given the opportunity. Sure, there are big deer in just about every state - but I'd bet the farm that a little "location manipulation" could bump your odds of finding one, significantly.

Ireally don't think it'sthe $100 NR license fee that keeps you inside the friendly confines of the Buckeye state. ;)

We'll have to see what happens, but I can guarantee that this year, this guy is going to be enjoying a change of scenery for the full duration of archery season. I guess I'll find out for myself whether I was being limited by my previouslocation, or if I'm just a piss-poor deer hunter.

Rybo - I still can't believe you did that.LOL I'm confident that you'll redeem yourself this fall.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

hey guys, been reading the fourm for awhile now and learnd a lot, but this is my fist post. I live just outside of Albany NY. I would say that anything over 125 would be considered a very big deer for this area. yes there have been some bigger deer killed around here, but very rare. My Dad brother and I all hunt very hard in the fall and winter and the largest we have between us is a few in the 100 inch range. But for the last two years my brother has gone to Ohio and hunted the same way.. Both years hes come home with deer that will go 140+. As stated earlier in this thread, did he become a better hunter on the drive out there???

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Yeah, but you did SEE a big buck right? Your 1st night in the tree no less.

How many that size have you seen in your home hunting grounds?

Location fellas.....location.;)

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

The solution to everyone who lives where there are no big deer (and want to shoot big deer) is to move.

Some people make it happen.
some people watch it happen.
some people don't even know it happened.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I don't think either of his big bucks were from Allegheny County...?

I agree with that...

This I do not agree with....


I scout and try to findbig bucks close to home.. The closer the better as it affords me time to hunt after work in the fall.... I only go as far as I need.... If I can't find them close I will go further until I do... Whether that takes me across the PA line or not. My goal is to kill a big buck.... I could careless from what state.

You do not have a million bowhunters in PA, 1/3 that maybe:eek:

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Technically no, I did not see it. :)I heard it snort and crash offthru the woods as I spooked it from underthe tree that I was supposed to be huntingwhen I returned to gather my gear. [:@]But a fella hunting not too far away from me,(andstarter of this thread)saw the buck and said it was big. :(

From what he tells me, it was about the same size as the last 2 bucks I killed here in PA.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Wow good post Quick!!!

I would say that a big deer here (on public land)would barely break 100" (although the record archery buck in FL came from public land and it scored206") and that is a liberal estimate.Down here in FL the deer are not know for their antlers and by no means their body size either. If its legall and I want to take it I will and what I want to take is some thing other than a spike. Im going to be honest with you and say that if a fork buck came out and presented me with a good shot I would take it no questions asked. But I would also rather hold out for a 6 or small 8 or something bigger.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

True Scott, I've never killed a buck in allegheny co.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I don't know the circumstances regarding Ryan's deer. I just know that he lives near Allegheny County. The point was, Rybo has killed as many PY-caliber deer in PA as anyone I know (2), and that feat was not accomplished overnight.

PA has approximately1,000,000 hunters, and the vast majority of them hunt deer with either gun or bow. The point is that if PA was crawling with booners, somebody would've shot a few of them by now.

It's not that everyone hunting inside the confines of the Commonwealth is a bumbling clueless idiot. They just can't shoot what isn't here.

Go back to this acquaintance of mine. This is a guy who has never killed a deer over 120 in his entire life- he goes on a pay-hunt to Illinois and shoots an absolute freakshow buck 3 days later. What happened? Did he just wake up one day and learn the inner secrets to slaying monster bucks? Should I expect him to shoot a booner back here in PA next fall, now that he has learned these new-found skills?


Yes - I did indeed bear witness to the big buck that Rybo bumped out of the scrape that he was supposed to be hunting over. [:@] I only saw it briefly, but it was a definite shooter.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

So the FIRST night you hunted, you.. (how should I put this....Hmmmm...) you didn't see, but heard, then subsequently found out, there was a decent size buck (good enough?) in your hunting area.I wonder how that happened......location??;)

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Welcome HUNTERNY! I live in Woodstock NY,about an hour south of you I am guessing.There are some area's surrounding Albany that are bow only correct?

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Quick I am going to answers this question as honest as I can.

Plain truth is many of us, me included simply just do not know what the top end deer is in our area.

My dad has lived on our farm for his entire life, how many 170+ deer has he seen alive? 0 My neighbor living room window looks right into big buck paradise here in MI. He has never seen a monster, he has seen some 125'' deer, but not any big boys.

Until a person decides to make a 110% commitment to hunting the top on deer in his area. He simply will not know what is there, and if he has a pressured area,it willjust got 100 times harder IMO.
I am not saying this is "Gospel", it's just the way it is for hunting top end deer in your area.

I can tell you how it works. First year the hunter may see one. He will see a lot of 1.5 and 2.5 bucks, at this point he realizes he is hunting the wrong spots. Second year he starts to see some bigger deer and he starts getting an understanding of what he needs to do. Third year I bet he gets a shot, and from than on one just keeps learning. The more you learn and more one applies the more shots he will get.

Putting a lot of time in a stand does not gurantee one will see a top end buck. Hunting Hard is only about 10% of the equation IMO.

What's the trade off? Time of course and this is a decsion each hunter has to make for himself.

I will not know myself these next 16 years, I have commitments to my children and wife. I may go buckless for a long time:D

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

EXACTLY!! When you see "those eyes" you know he's mature. It's just THAT LOOK of a mature buck. I don't see that where I hunt in Pa.[&o]A big buck in my area is 125" and up.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

John, you have to remember that when I first started hunting in 1967, I had never seen or heard of compound bows or treestands!

It wasn't until 1984 that I shot a 96" 8 pointer with my rifle and I thought that it was a monster! I thought woods were woods and that deer were deer. I didn't realize that over 80% of the bucks taken during that time were only 1 1/2 year olds. Then a buddy told me about the P&Y and B&C clubs. I started to wonder why I had never seen one. So I started studying about deer, scouting and making a real effort to try to find one of these beasts. I started trophy hunting in 1991 and started hunting Ill in 1994. And now I'm where I'm at because of the desire to hunt big bucks.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I don't entirely agree with this statement either. I had been hunting a "trophy-heavy" area for 8 years before I finally learned enough about mature bucks to finally lay eyes on one and tag it. I totally believe in the statement that hunting a mature buck is like hunting a different species. You have to have you're sh_t together or you won't see or get many.

In other words, you could still be hunting where they live and just not know it.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I'll say i tfor you, Germ........... it's gospel.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I agree with this and whileI believe I take decent bucks for my areas some quick research every season tells me where not only the most antlered deer are taken but the best ones as well, so mine may be "decent" but I am also postive there are more fertile huntinggrounds and probably within driving distance to boot.


VA Game & Fish magazine runs articles like these every season not to mention specific articles that focus on certain counties or public lands that produce. On average I am usually happy with 100"-120" deer but I also see deer much bigger than that being taken every season with 135" to probably145" not being too "uncommon". Now bigger than that is a whole different ball game but VA has some of those guyslurking as well, I've just yet to be photographed with one;).

Virginia's 2007 Deer Outlook -- Part 1: Where To Find Your Deer

Virginia's 2007 Deer Forecast -- Part 2: Where To Find Trophy Bucks


I guess my point is if I had more time/resources I know where I could increase my odds(by using easily accessible info onmy state)I just can't prioritize it that way at this point, probably a lot of others in that same boat I'm guessing but just because I'm not going after them doesn't mean they ain't there(within my state that is).

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

tsoc, yes we do do have some areas that are bow only. Its nice to be able to do out during gun season and not have to deal with the orange army. Not that I dontenjoy gun hunting as well....

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Most every year we spottwo or three130-140" deer on our farm. And usually every year there's one or two 160" or better deer seen in the area of our farm (within a mileor so). I won't shoot a buck unless I believe he's a Poper and 3.5 years old.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

OK

So...at this point....he DOES know what's there? That's all Quick is saying. At some point....he does know what his area holds....and he's realistic about his expectations, there.

Going after them 120 or 180% won't change that.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Ok first, almost everyone thinks my bucks come from allegheny co, because I live here & they are big[8D]
While I do hunt here, I do so only because it beats sitting at home. My spots aren't that great, so I often travel 45 minutes to hunt elsewhere. (even though if you took the P&Y bucks per square mile, I'm sure I'm headed to a statistically less productive area)


I'll recap the whole story, it's painful, but I can laugh at myself. I met quik & his buddy over "there" late sunday morning, they had hunted that morning, I didn't. We roamed around all midday looking for a good spot. We found squat. Finally late afternoon we hit an area COMPLETELY tore up with rubs & scrapes. HOT & FRESH. So we grabbed our stuff and spread out as best we could. I was using stix & a hangon, and somehow left at home the belt/strap that holds the hangon to the tree. I tried to find an alternate ground location to watch over this scrape, but nothing suitable was there. I ventured off set the rest of the night. Coming back shortly before dark to get my gear. Me & quik text back & forth to make sure I don't mess anything up for him. He tells me to hold tight as he heard crashing over my direction and saw a deer go right past where he thought I was to be. Moments later the buck goes crashing out and he gets a better view of the shooter. And my heart sinks even lower. :([:@]

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I would say he has a good idea Jeff, but unless we live 110% in an area we simply do not know. When I say live I mean live all year around.

To know all extra actvites have to stop, no varmit hunting, Hockey vacations with the wife[8D] Like i said it's 100 times harder for Fran than it is for most others.

Take last year buck 115'' 2.5 lets see 3.5 135'' 4.5 160'' How many 4.5 and 5.5 bucks are running around in fran's area. I bet not to many. Which why it is so damn hard to know, and it's ok not to know, hell I don't know:D

There is a hunter in MI who kills 150+ bucks every year. His county has 2 B & C entries, he has both. Ask hunters in that county what thetop ondeer is in that county. I bet they say 130'', he has many over 150'' mark.

If we are honest with ourselves most of will say we could be doing more. Saturday night I should be on that river glassing the fields to see what is there. I will be taking my kids to see Wall-E movie;)

Ask yourself am I doing enough to know what the top end deer are where I hunt?

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

If you're killing them....the answer's pretty easy.

If you aren't......well that's where it gets tricky.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Greg,

Fair enough, but my question really pertains to adult years of hunting. You'll notice that when speaking of my hunting career I use the last 20+ years as an example. Truth be told I started deer hunting with my dad when I was a 9 but I don't claim to have 34 years of deer hunting experience nor do I count those early years when it pertains to the scenario questioned in this thread.

So...that being said, I have a few more questions.

How many years in the last 14 (since 1994) of hunting Illinois have you gotten skunked or not seen a P&Y caliber deer?.

That "trophy-heavy" area couldn't have been Illinois because that would mean you didn't kill a mature deer in Illinois until 2002 because you started hunting Illinois in 1994. So we're to assume that the choice to hunt Illinois had NOTHING to do with the obvious spike introphy caliber deer you've seem to be seeing/killing?

I'm still finding it hard to believe you didn't see a P&Y caliberdeer in a trophy-heavy area for eight years when I've been seeing them for 20+ in not so "trophy-heavy" areas ofIllinois.

Experience while necessary is NOT the only prerequisite needed to killing P&Y caliber deer, you need to be where they are to do so as well. I'd venture to say that there are a lot of hunters in PA and VA and NC, etc...that are far more skilled and put more time and effort into pursuing Whitetail deerthan you or I, yet they don't have the antler inches that you or I do hanging on their walls.

For us to think otherwise is arrogant at the least and borderline self absorbed elitism because the bottom line is their states don't hold the number of P&Y deer as ours do thus their opportunities for killing a P&Y deer drop off drastically. EVEN if all the "best, most skilled trophy hunters" traveled and gathered in the few isolated areas where P&Y bucks were killed, they STILL wouldn't kill the numbers the average Joe kills in the big buck states so it isn't all about skill. It all boils down to location....like it or not.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

You got it, One needs to do is look at your county records to get a good idea.

My question for Fran is the 2.5 115 inch deer the top end for his area? He's never seen one bigger in the county he hunts?

Typical 168(I think someone shot a 173 in 2007)
Non Typical -186

My best 176 Non Typical
145 Typical

And I do not know;)

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

You're looking at this in too broad a sense, Gary....even narrowing it down to state/counties (as far as I'm concerned, personally.....but I won't speak for Fran). We've got river-bottom areas of my county that I know hold bigger deer than what I see. We've got less densely populated areas (deer-wise)very near me that I don't have access to). Conceded. I don't have the desire/inclination to go there and hunt them...when I have great hunting ground, right here by the house.

You've also NEVER heard me complain about my hunting grounds. Never.;)

I answered the question with the assumption of how it pertained to the grounds I can actually hunt. What the guys are doing on lands I can't/(don't have the desire to)access....or what they're hunting.....I can't speak to.

I stated what a "good deer" for where I hunt is (IMO). That would be 100"+.

I've heard it said here, before....and I believe it to be true...

If you're taking the best representative deer your woods have to offer.....on a consistent basis.......then you should be proud.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Who is killing their areas "top end" bucks on a regular basis??? No one I have ever met.... Well, I know of one some what local guy who has killed two top end bucks over the past 8 or so years.... But that is it.

I think you are misunderstanding the difference between a nice buck for their area and a top end buck..... Lot's of people shoot nice bucks for their area on a regular / semi regular basis, not so on top end whitetails.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Statistical Anomaly 9/07
R.I.P.


But if anyone thinks that the fact that me and my statistical anomaly were in the same place at the same time was also an anomaly you'd be mistaken.
What I find intersting is that I seem to get a "vibe" from here that because some of us in underprivilaged areas don't kill big bucks like that regularly we're somehow not looking hard enough?
LOL I find it almost comical sometimes to read some of it...........

You guys ever see the video "bowhunting Pressured Whitetails"? .....I just picked up a copy of this much heralded video a little while back (the pre-season scouting volume) And almost laughed out loud when I watched it. You could have taken a Sony Handicam along with me from the preseason through the first week of the season last year and simply changed the name on the cover of the video. Stuff I learned through 23 years of trial and error turns out to be the "right way" to a T and I have one statistical anomaly to show for 23 years of hunting PA>

Now fast forward to the midwest......I hunted there for the first time in 2003 (Nebraska) and saw an honest 5 bucks that would go over P&Y and 2 that would push Boone and Crockett in 6 days of hunting. I also passed 4 bucks at under 10 yards that would have been 20-40" bigger than any deer I had previously killed in PA. IN 6 DAYS.

2004 ....more of the same and first time ever in Illinois, I blew a chip shot opportunity at a 160" 10pt the very first morning of DAY ONE after never seeing the leased property before in my life other than some fuzzy airials to start a scouting search. Hung a stand the night before and bingo, (If I didn't spook the doe he was with trying to get into position for a shot :eek:)

Passed another buck that would have been 40" bigger than any I had killed in my life in PA (because of the first encounter) and saw 4 other bucks that would make P&Y without hesitation. In 7 Days of hunting.

2006,2007.......back to IL. Now hunting with Greg on some established ground he hunts. This is in the right state and we hunt some tough public land bucks. I missed a P&Y buck in the first 3 days of the 2006 season, and saw one other that would make P&Y for sure. 2007 I almost shot a solid 135" buck in the first evening of day one, passed many deer that would have been toast in PA.

So what is the common denominator herethat allowed me to see roughly 14 P&Y bucks (some going close to that magical 170" mark) in a matter of roughly 4 weeks of stand time when I hadn't seen but a single one in 23 YEARS prior in PA?
And my god these weren't even outfitter hunts! These were just a lease, and hunting with some friends on knock on door type properties in unmanaged areas. :D

You can get blood from a stone but by God you have to squeeze the ever loving crap out of it and it might take 23 years to see a drop.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

You know you answered the question right there and here

So IF you Jeff wanted to try and shoot bigger buck in your state what would you do? What would it cost you? Are you willing to pay the price?

For example I had a golden chance to hunt with Joe Brooks on a lease that is out of world. 160+ bucks is not out of the question
Money cost was not the issue, it was the time cost. I was unable to pay the price[&:]

I am going to hunt where I can, and try and take the best buck I can.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Gary, that in itself doesn't prove anything more that there was at lease ONE or TWO big bucks in his county. Now, compare that to how many are in PIKE county Illinois and you get an idea of what Fran is trying to say. You can't sit there and tell me he has the same chance to kill a P&Y deer as the dude in Pike....he doesn't and I don't care how good a hunter Fran is or how bad the hunter in Pike Co. is, the guy in Pike stands a better chance to kill a P&Y deer than Fran period.

Judging by yours (and others statements) you must be of the belief that the hunters in the big buck states ofIllinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, Ohio, etc.... are just better hunters than the hunters in Pennsylvania, Virgina, North Carolina, Florida, Louisiana or any other state that doesn't produce the number if P&Y bucks that the other states do.

Is that what you think?? If your answer is no then what do YOU attribute to low numbers of P&Y bucks killed in those states to??

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Amen!


I'm not Greg/MO so you'll have to live with my "stamp of approval":D

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I do not think anyone has said that... Heck, Gary has said quite a few times it is 100 times harder for Fran in his area.... I do not see anyone arguing thefact that it is harder in such areas.....

Just claiming that a 115 inch 2.5 year old buck as a top end whitetail is kind of hard to believe.... Another year he would easily be a P&Y animal. There is no way every 2.5 buck in his area gets killed.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I did't the paragraph before
Here also
Eberhart hunts the same area's and worst I might add in MI as does Matt and Fran I bet;)

A hunter named John Bendict shot a 180''+ double droptine buck 4 miles from my house. I drove by every morning on the way to work. I never seenthe deer.

What I have said is there is a cost and it's differnet in every state, location.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Maybe not but then you can say that a 150 inch4.5 year olddeer is not a "top end deer" here in Illinois either.Another year and he could easily be aB&C deer and there is no way every 4.5 buck in my area gets killed either. It's all relative to the area you hunt. Also your making the assumption that all 115in deer in PA are 2.5 years old, I'd lay bet their (on average) older than that.

The fact of the matter is, a 150in deer in Illinois is indeed a "top end deer" just as a 115in deer in PA is. Do both have bigger deer lurking? I'm sure they do....I'm also sure Illinois has more of their "top end deer" that PA does.;)

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

Just to warn you about Wall-E. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing....full of propaganda for the kids. It teaches that hating fat people is cool and ok, and that consuming any of the earth's natural resources is evil...

Just FYI...sorry...off topic.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

This is where we disagree! If there are a number of bigger animals in the immediate area than that is not a top end whitetail! It is a nice, good or what ever you want to call it buck for that area, not top end.

I 100% agree. No question that IL has more top end deer than PA.

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I agree 100% however, and this eludes to what I posted a few pages back. I suggest that the "cost" meaning the time and energy needed to kill a P&Y buck in PAexceeds what is needed to kill one here in Illinois. Substitute P&Y for B&C and the task in PA FAR exceeds the one in Illinois (or any other big buck state) to the point where most who decree "you need to put more time in, move, etc..." would probably give up themselves and move to a better state. As stated so eloquently by Matt / PA "You can get blood from a stone but by God you have to squeeze the ever loving crap out of it and it might take 23 years to see a drop."

RE: Big Buck Barometer
 

I laugh out loud at statements like this.....as if I don't "want it enough" (which I most certainly don't care about).(and I'm not making fun of you, Gary...at all)

I suppose....using this "logic"....we could say that anyone not willing to pack up ship and re-locate to the Alberta bow zone.....isn't "willing to pay the price".

I mean IFthey wanted to...[8D] It's REALLY (as hard as this might be to believe)....not that important to me. I want to kill the best represntative deer every year (or so) from my woods. Nothing more.

He asked what that was.....and I told him.