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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

NAH, Accuracy kills! The fastest bow in the hands of an inaccurate person=no meat on the table. The slowest bow in expert hands= a full belly. [;D]

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I' ll Bite . . . what good is speed if you don' t have the weight to penetrate.

Light travels at 186,000 miles per second but it can' t penetrate an opaque object without some hole to get through. It is extremely powerful and potentially dangerous . . . but it has No relative MASS.

One could also have a one ton peice of rock but without a velocity acting on it, it will go nowhere and penetrate nothing.

Considering the two scenarios given X Mass and Y velocity and you achieve a force in ft-lbs that is capable of penetarting.

What I am trying to say is that you can have all the speed in the world but without mass, that' s all you have. YOU NEED A COMBINATION OF BOTH TO DO THE JOB!

BTW, I agree with Trapper Dave.

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

But with what grain arrow? To acheive that high of a speed your talking some light arrows. 3-D ok....but hunting noway is alight arrow going to make it....Sure youll have your flukes but in time you will have more crippled animals than meat in the freezer. Going out on a limb here ...your a young guy right?:D This year I went to a lighter hunting setup ( for more speed) I shoot two deer and recovered both, but....next year I am going to get more weight on my arrows because the penetration was not there like in the past.

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

You hunt with 315 grain arrow????????/ WoW I shoot 311 grain for 3-D and wouldnt think abouut using that for hunting:D And I thought I was to light at 425 grain for hunting:D BTW at 61# at 425 I am getting 270 fps....But if it works for you then what can I say???/;) I checked and only came up with 69 ke for you. Where did I goof????? My badd ...did it again and got 82 ..sorry

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

its all relative Krisken to the animal at hand.

When you get to chase that moose you have posted by your nick, you will rethink that postion, speed kills.

Look at it with 2 balls, a ping pong ball and a golf ball. What one would you want to be hit by.

All things are not created equal however and in the penetration scheme, there is a ton more then just speed or weight, KE or MOM along that will factor in the total equation of penetration.

And no the trade offs are not worth the minimal gaings.

Btw, you are the perfect candidate for the Natal Test findings.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Actually, no. Simple physics dictates that a heavier arrow will absorb more of the bow' s energy. The end result is a slightly higher Ke with a heavier arrow. The Ke difference is minimal, but by increasing your arrow mass your momentum greatly increases.

Ever wonder why in order to hunt dangerous game in Africa, by law, you have to use a heavy arrow (something like 900 grains)? It ain' t because " speed kills" . ;)

Cool. Call a PH in Mozambique and tell him you want to hunt Cape Buffalo with that set-up. Don' t take his laughing personally. :(

Speed and Ke figures are good for one thing though...they sure do sell a lot of new bows every year. :D

JRW

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I' m shooting 241 fps @ 67# and a 463 gr arrow. My KE Calculates at 60 ft-lbs and it has done the job every time for me. It is not the resultant of my mass or speed . . . the laws of physics prove that it is a product of the two. If one only considers speed he only has HALF of the equation. You simply cannot have one without the other and still be effective . . . and that is a law of physics that cannot be avoided.

Speed is not what kills! Mass is not what kills! It is and always will be the product of the two that provides penetration.

By the way Kriskin, your arrow would be ILLEGAL here in Washington State. You must have 6 grains of arrow per pound of draw weight.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

You actually hunt with a bow shooting 342 fps? Take something from this old longtime bow hunter, shooting a bow with that light of an arrow is bound to produce more noise. In fact at longer distances I have found that deer are less likely to jump the string because the noise level is less at greater distances. I also hope you have some ommph on the front end of that arrow so it can penetrate. You can use all the Kinetic energy formulas you want, thats on paper my friend, speed may kill but I would rather my arrow go " whomp" instead of " ping" when it hits. :D

One other thing, you even so much as twitch with your setup and you might as well go look for a lost arrow.[:-]

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I get tired of hearing people say that light arrows don' t penetrate or have any momentum.
Lilhunter, I unsterstand what your saying but if the ping pong ball is going so fast it' s going to pass through you, would you want to be hit by it ????

Use whatever you like but don' t tell me that a light fast arrow can' t penetrate, I' ve got 14 stories of my on that say differently(broken shoulders and all)!!!

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I think this to be a case of " extremes" . Krisken, your own bow is an extreme end of the spectrum example here.

Lets take a more realistic one in terms of speed, arrow weight and KE numbers. Take any of the 305-310 IBO rated bows on the market today and put an ultralight arrow setup on the bow...5 grains per pound. Just for argument' s sake lets say that results in a 325 grain arrow and an arrow speed of 280 fps (28 or 29 inch draw length and a fully loaded bowstring). That is " only" 56 ft. lbs of KE.

But, if you were to shoot a slightly heavier arrow...say a 100 grains more (425) then the arrow would slow down by roughly 20-25 fps (255-260 fps) and be producing anywhere from 61-64 ft lbs of KE. In all honesty I call that a substantial increase. Ofcourse, these figures vary greatly and the loss of KE/momentum in relation to an increase in arrow speed is not a bell shaped curve. There are " cut off" points at each end of the spectrum where too much arrow weight or not enough arrow weight is detrimental to the overall shooting characteristics of that particular bow and arrow combination.

The point being that though either of the setups mentioned will " do the job" provided shot placement is there, if shot placement is not perfect then a little more KE and momentum might allow you to still be more effective in putting the animal down. The key factor to all of this is to find what provides for the optimal setup for your situation.

Too light of an arrow normally does not produce enough KE, momentum or both..... can create a loud bow and can drastically increase the wear and tear on bow components. Plus the tradeoffs that a person normally has to deal with....low brace height, harsh draw cycle, etc.... can be more trouble than they are worth.

On the other hand, shooting too heavy of an arrow can result in a rainbow trajectory that makes yardage judging extremely critical. Take a bow shooting in the 225 fps range with a 600 grain arrow. That creates 67 ft. lbs of KE. Respectable in that category but then lets also look at trajectory...assuming an ICS carbon setup with 3, 4 inch plastic vanes and weight tubes installed.....and with the arrow parallel to the ground at launch.....

At 10 yards that is a 4 inch drop....at 20 yards it is a 15 inch drop....at 30 yards that is a 32 inch drop and at 40 yards it is a 58 inch drop.

Now, at the opposite end of the spectrum we take the arrow used in the first example....At 10 yards that is a 2 inch drop....at 20 yards it is a 9 inch drop....at 30 yards it is a 22 inch drop and at 40 yards it is a 41 inch drop.

That appears to be a significantly flatter trajectory especially when you get farther out into the 30 and 40 yard range. But, the arrow is probably going to be louder and carries at least 10 ft. lbs less KE.

As stated, these two examples are extreme ends of the spectrum. My point again being that I believe moderation to be the key. If we take the second arrow in the first example which weighs 425 grains and is traveling at 255-260 fps (64 ft. lbs of KE) and look at its trajectory.....

10 yards....3 inch drop....20 yards....11 inch drop.....30 yards...26 inch drop and at 40 yards a 47 inch drop ....

...then we can see that the bow still has a trajectory roughly comparable to the " speed setup" while still producing more KE/momentum and yet also offering a relative quiet, less critical setup.

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I feel strongly both ways.
I like speed for all the reasons mentioned in the opening post. For hunting a balance of KE & speed is a must, and in my opinion KE takes priority.

If you' re hunting whitetail the min KE reccommended is 40-45lbs I think. If you' re setup is giving you 45-50lbs KE at 5-6 grains a pound then I think you should consider a heavier arrow for hunting. It would increase KE and give you a little slop energy.

If on the other hand your setup is giving you 65-70lbs KE at 5-6 grains a pound then you already have some slop. I' d say KE is not a problem for you, given you hit what you aim at. Changing arrow weight to bring your KE up to 75lbs is probably not worth your time for hunting whitetails.

IF you' re shooting 80+ lbs of KE and still carrying >260fps I' d say you' ve reached a good balance of KE versus Speed Krisken. Brave of you to jump up on the stump though, these guys are good shots.

out

Cargo

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I like a faster setup. But use a middle of the road weight arrow. Frank' s example shows, to me, the heavier arrow is not detrimental within 30 yds. As far as trajectory goes. Beyond 30, the lighter arrow' s trajectory becomes a plus. Aiding in shot placement as it relates to distance estimation. At that point, what' s better? A well placed shot with a lighter arrow? Or a poorly placed shot with a heavy arrow?

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Are you saying that you are dead on at 10 yds, about 1/2" low at 20yds, 3/4" low at 30yds and one inch low at 37 yds.??

These numbers are no where close to what I or others I know have found.

Are you shooting over a thermal:)[>:]

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Your presumption is that higher Ke automatically translates into better penetration. But then you want to dismiss animals that present the toughest resistance to penetration? Sorry, but your position falls flat at that point.

Whitetails aren' t exactly the litmus test of penetration. As a matter of fact, they' re probably one of the easiest of all big game animals to get an arrow through. If you want to talk penetration, then respectfully, you need to address animals that actually pose a challenge.

Seeing as I' ve personally blown through more than a handful of whitetails with under 30# of Ke, I' d say it' s vastly overrated. Like I said...it sure sells a lot of bows every year though.

Alright, forget Africa. Call a professional guide and tell him you want to hunt Alaskan moose or Kodiaks with that set-up of yours. Again...don' t take his laughing personally. :D

Didn' t you close your first post with..." What else is there to say?.......SPEED KILLS!" ? Hmmmmmmmm..... [:o]

You can' t pretend to debate an absolute, then sluff off that which refutes your claim. [:-]

JRW

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I still have a hard time thinking your getting 342 fps out that bow:D

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

For what it' s worth, I never said that speed isn' t important because it is half of a very important and potent combination. Coupled with Mass and in the right combination with your set up you WILL get penetration due to the combination of the two.

Plug these equations into your calculator according to this basic formula
Mass (Velocity X Velocity / 450240):

Equation 1. 0 gr (342 X 342 fps / 450240) [Speed without Mass]

Equation 2. 315 gr (0 X 0 fps / 450240) [Mass without Speed]

With either of these setups, can you tell me how likely you would get measurable penetration?

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Okay, here is what i have to say, my goofy fishing buddys son shot and killed a spike buck with a 25# rascal in texas, dont ask why he went all the way to texas and shot a spike.like i said goofy:D, but the deer kicked like 30yards and flop, dead, this kid was 10 and was using an aluminum arrow with a 125grain thunderhead now i dont know the speed or KE but that cant be alot! Ohh yes and what about the diety of bowhunting himself mr. Fred Bear, he killed every game animal imaginable including elephants with his setup a recurve and cedar/whatother kind of his time..and that bow didn' t have the " speed" of he bows nowadays, but it sure had K.E.
As you say it
NEXT!;)

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Over the course of many deer...several ribs, one vertebrae, and a shoulder blade. That good enough?

When people seem to think they need 50 or 60 foot pounds of Ke to get a passthrough on whitetails...I' d say it' s overrated.

Alright, let' s examine momentum for a minute...

Ke is a measurement of how much energy a projectile will strike an object with. It' s great for bullets, because they kill by shock. But, we' re not talking guns, are we? Momentum is a measurement of not only how hard a projectile will strike an object, but how fast it will lose energy (i.e. penetration). This is more applicable to to arrows, yes?

You say your wonder bow shoots a 315 grain arrow at 342 fps. Following the formula for Ke, you' ve got 81.83 foot pounds. My new recurve shoots a 505 grain arrow at 200 fps (on the button). I' ve only got a lowly 44.86 foot pounds of Ke.

Your bow has 82.41% more Ke than mine. Your bow will hit with 82.41% more energy than mine...but, we' re not shooting blunts here. We' re trying to penetrate the animal, so we need to take into account how fast that energy get' s lost. Enter momentum...

The formula for momentum (which actually IS an accurate indicator of potential arrow penetration) is... Speed X Mass / 225,120.

Your wonder bow, with its 315 gain arrows, only gets .4785 pound-seconds of momentum. My lowly recurve gets .4486 pound-seconds. Your bow, while initially hitting with 82.41% more energy, because of your 315 grain arrows, only has 6.66% more momentum than mine.

Are you understanding why Ke is overrated for arrows yet? Thanks for giving me the chance to educate you. It' s been my pleasure. :D

JRW

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Krisken, Looks to me like you had your mind made up already and were just wanting to argue about the whole speed deal. I have a really hard time buying 342 f.p.s. with that setup, especially set up to hunt.I cant remember the specs on that bow excactly, but I know in was just a few more f.p.s than that set up I.B.O.Even if you were getting 342 ,I ran your specs through three different ballistic programs. Even with a ridiculously low f.o.c., vane height,vane length,and arrow diameter, best case scenario is 18 inches drop at fourty. One pin out to 37.Nope, not possible even at the claimed speed. If it was that would be one damn popular bow on the 3D circuit, and its not. Not calling you a liar, just miss informed.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Hi,

I' ll give it a try.

I read a article about this some years ago,but I don' t remember who wrote it or what magazine it was in.

I might not have it exactly right but I think I' ll be close.

It stated that there was a flaw in the formula of determining the KE energy from arrow weight and speed.It found that every thing being equal in which arrow penetrated the farthest.

It found that a arrow somewhere in the 400 grain range had the greatest penetration of all.

They found that arrows in this range had just the right amount of weight and speed to get maximum penetration.

I wish I could find the article,but it really blasted the light arrow-heavy poundage theory.I know from experience that once you get under 400 grains your asking for trouble.

This also goes for the real heavy arrow theory,the heavier arrow didn' t always penetrate more, because it didn' t have enough speed!

I realize that it depends on many variables,however it was stateing that if you are shooting a high poundage bow and want to get maximum perfomance in penetration to stay in the 400 grain area.

If someone out there also read this article let me know if I had it right or where I had it wrong,thanks.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I am guessing this was a sarcastic statement to some extent as I did not discuss the " smaller sight window" issue or the " less reaction time" issue....though I did discuss both KE and trajectory so I might be misinterpreting your comment. Sometimes I believe it wise to start with one issue and work from there rather than to take on several issues at once and get confused in the process....:)

To address those two issues....

I have never shot a bow that will shoot in the speed range you are suggesting. I have not found a setup that will produce that speed without sacrificing either a low brace height or a harsh draw cycle due to either the heavy draw weight or hard cam style. Both of these characteristics are detrimental to the average bowhunter. However, I will be the first to say " to each his own" . If you are comfortable shooting a bow with these shooting characteristics then more power to you.

Having said that though I have shot a few bows that would put arrows out in the high 315-320 fps range. A 0-30, one pin trajectory was definitely realistic...assuming the one pin was sighted in for around 25-27 yards. However, it has been my experience that once that 35 yard mark has been reached then trajectory begins to curve more. That extra 20 or so fps that your bow is putting out in comparison to what I have shot might realistically get you another 5-7 yards but I would be hard pressed to believe more than that. I am not calling you a liar but rather saying that I would have to see it to believe it.

After reading your listed specs I went over to bow jackson' s trajectory calculator and punched in some numbers based on your setup.....with some assumptions such as using a 3 feather setup, 30 inch typical ICS carbon shaft....and with the arrow level at launch...

10 yards...1 inch drop

20 yards....7 inch drop

30 yards...15 inch drop

40 yards...28 inch drop.

However, if you sighted your bow in at 30-33 yards then I think it would be realistic for you to get a " one pin to 40 yard" setup with the understanding that you would be an inch or so high at 20 and a few inches low at 40.

In this scenario, with your second pin sighted in at 50 yards I do not think that the gap between both pins and the relative size of the animals body at a 45 yard distance would allow you to place both pins in such a position as to allow both to cover the animals body. One pin would likely be above or below the deer or both would be marginally " touching" the top of the deer' s back and the bottom of the deer' s belly respectively. Obviously, this discussion is assuming an average sized whitetail deer not a larger animal in which case your suggestion might be plausible.

Fletch asked me about those specs you listed. My opinion would be that, yes, those specs are realistic for the bow in question gentleman...assuming there is not anything on the bowstring besides a loop or brass nockset and that he is shooting at a 30 inch draw or more. The IBO for the Black Knight 2 is 350 fps. It is the fastest production bow on the planet..bar none and he is shooting at close to IBO specs in terms of the grains per pound ratio.

As for reaction time, I do not believe there is enough of a gap in time between a relatively slow arrow in comparison to a relatively fast arrow in order prove that the faster arrow is to any real advantage in reference to having a deer jump the string. Many of us have watched videos where bows shooting over 300 fps still missed deer at relatively close ranges and it was not the fault of the shooter. Either the bow was too loud or the deer caught movement and still had time to react after the arrow was released. An arrow of more moderate speed and moderate weight is likely to be quieter which decreases the chances of the deer spooking during the shot.

Respectfully to you I disagree. Any extreme in bowhunting equipment has always proven to me to be detrimental to the overall practicality of any given setup. Good discussion though. :)

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Speed is overrated! Accuracy is the ticket. Most hunters aren' t capable of consistently getting a clean kill at lengthy distances. Trajectory is only an issue at greater distances. I see many referances to whitetails in the responses. Scientists claim a whitetail is able to jump the string of any bow regardless how fast it is. In a wooded area, how often to do you have a clear shooting lane at 40 yards? Do the weather elements favor a shot at 40 yards? Is it raining or is the wind blowing?

There is always the human factor involved. Poor technique will be magnified at longer distances causing your arrow to stray just a little more.

Speed bows are more difficult to tune. I' ll debate anyone who denies that.

Granted, on occasion you may be forced to take a long shot at that trophy you' ve been after. You may only get one chance and it may be a difficult shot. Chuck Adams often discusses this fact. But he also stresses few hunters can deal with these circumstances. Most of the time, hunters miss or wound their target.

Nah- in my opinion speed is not a big deal. It might help on a 3D course, but in a hunting scenerio there are too many other variables. It may boost your ego to shoot 342 f.p.s., but my freezer will be just as full with a " slow" bow. To each their own!

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I will admit upfront that I failed to read all the replys before responding to your post krisken, so I apologize in advance if someone else already mentioned this.

1. I think you are merely having a good time, stirring the pot with your post!:D

2. 342 fps is blazing fast, but it ain`t even close to using one pin to 40 yards without playing hi/low with your pin at either end of the spectrum.

3.Speed can buy you many things, but as in everything else in this world, it comes at a price.

4. No doubt, the light arrows work for you, and it does not surprise me. I personally prefer to slow down to a snails pace(280-290 range);) and go with an arrow in the 400gr. area.

Your way works, my way works, and so does the real heavy and slow guys. So pick what you like and practice, practice, practice!

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

So we are here to stir the pot a little......uuummmm BK2 is not the fastest bow on the planet anymore......that was proven at the ATA show... BM2 holds that honor now. krisken... thats how you stir the pot:D Penis envy? How did that come into play?[:o]

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I cant speak for all of Fred Bears elephants but he did kill atleast one with " the pod" .

There are others though who have killed elephants with archery tackle and not rely on chemicals to take them down. Howard Hill would be one.

Tree hugger,

Mass is relative to its speed, and speed is relative to how much mass its carrying therefore that 400gr theory would be blown out of the water. It only takes some time with a calculator and some numbers to figure that one out.


Krisken

You can add 200 grains to your arrow regardless how of " fast" your arrow shoots.

I have a couple questions for you.

First, how much bowhunting experience do you have in killing game? Now killing game other then whitetials, well keep in on north america just to humor your penis seeing epidemic [:-] Not trying to challenge you here, just curious and hopefully I get an honest answer back.

Second,

Do you understand the correlation between KE and Mom? It was in a previous post and pretty dang close.

Kinetic energy is the amount of energy that an object has, regardless if its lead, carbon, wood, or the front bumper of a f350, ON IMPACT. KE DOES NOT go on further then this.

Momentum is what takes over after the initial impact.

Now take into the many OTHER variables, that are coherent with each individual setups and trying to calculate just how much penetration you think you SHOULD achieve is mind bogling.

And finally,

NOw that you care to get back to your original question of
as you can see the answer is NO. There are to many variables leading up to " total penetration" that speed is only one minute factor. Even going as far as setting KE restrictions is a lesson in futility.

someday you may have the chance to leave the confines of Ny, when you do, start asking around......there is a reason the folks out west shoot what they do.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

It would be logical and mathametically accurate to assume that with each setup there would be an optimum in speed and mass that would provide the best performance ie. penetration. However it would vary with each bow setup/arrow type/archer/draw weight/arrow length/arrow weight/ambient environment when shooting and far too much more to think of. To throw yet another factor into the mixture . . . what about the amount of energy it takes to fling the arrow and nock off the string, or another term that may be negligible but always a factor . . . friction.

As someone said earlier, it is mind blowing.[&:]

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Hope you didn' t get hurt when you fell off that stump!:D

BTW , are you going to the 3rd annual northeast get together? I' ll do whatever I can to make it so I can shoot some 3d with ya.

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

You need to tell that to this feller AK. Check out his pics:

http://community.webshots.com/album/62480817RzOwnm


He must be gettin some pretty awesome speed.....

I just borrowed his link....

In my experiences:

Quiet kills.....speed thrills

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Krisken,


Upset? Not at all. I' m not sure why you addressed me about name-calling, " penis envy" , or calling you a liar. I think you may have confused my post with someone elses.

Kindly go back, reread it, and edit your response accordingly. Thank you.

JRW

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I was trying to be as diplomatic as I could Krisken when I stated my opinion. You came back with a personal slap, so I guess I failed. Now what was it you said about this turning childish. Hmmmm seeems like you did your little part there. Sure makes me want to beleive the claims your making.:)