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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

You can have both. I shoot a BK II also, not quite as extreme as yours, 29 in draw, 70# 454 grain arrow at 295 fps, KE 88. Overkill for anything on this continent, moose and grizzly included.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Hawgz, that BM2 was never proven to be a production bow as no one was allowed to shoot it, only the machine. Mathews may have one fast bow, but who wants to shoot 5 1/4" brace?[:@] Send their bow over that' ll shoot with my Pat Dually at 7 3/4" brace. Or my P38 DC at 7 1/4" brace. I thought so!!!:D;)

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

pdq 5oh You wants some cheese with that whine? It was proven face it. Like the BK2 is just loaded with brace height. Even when something is proven to you...you still want admitt to it.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

hey Krisken,

I' ll humor you one more time as you seem to be a wee bit off on this hole momentum gig. WHen this video (if/when it happens) remind me and I' ll send you a copy of the natal study. So far its about the best thing out there when it comes to speed, ke, mom, penetration on many different game animals. By cranking your bow up to a weight I am sure most adult males could shoot accuratly pulling the bow straight back, not doing the dance to hit full draw and in theory staying with the same arrow just to hunt brownies lol. Heck they are going to eat ya anyways..... I am trying to keep things a little more realistic. Like I am sure you are putting in for the Ny moose tags right? That or dream of chasing elk and maybe get the chance to hunt AK or Canada for moose or caribou (which bou btw are on the average not a very hard critter to penetrate as per a whitetail). Hopefully some light will be shed and you will grasp a better understanding on this hole deal and not be directed to one aspect of it and comparing it to a hole different thing. Only time will tell!

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Can someone give me the formula your using for KE. The def. of KE is 1/2 x mass x [Velocity squared]. The bow poundage should not play a part in the equasion.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Krisken,

342 fps!! Wow, what broadhead do you use?

You' ve convinced me! I read that Hoyt has tested their bows with up to 40,000 dry fires without a blemish. I' m going to shoot 200 grain arrows - 400fps, here I come. ;)

beprepn

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

The initial premise was " SPEED IS ALL YOU NEED! ?" For this to be true mass has to have no effect on killing an animal.

I think you are knocked off the stump unless you can prove that the answer to the following equation is any number greater than 0 [ZERO]. Good Luck ;)

Equation 1. 0 gr (342 X 342 fps / 450240) [Speed without Mass]

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I wonder if somone could come up with a new formula, one that takes into consideration momentum along with KE. Kind of an " Adjusted Impact Formula."

Good Luck!!

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

i have to agree with Krisken. with that set up he should blow threw anyone of those animals.i love speed it lets you load up your bow till its quiet with just enough arrow weight and still shoot flat. as far as momentom is concerd its not even a issue. HIS BOW HAS BUILT IN OVERKILL PERIOD. as for elk and moose i would go with 420 to 450 grain arrow with as much speed as i could get. i like a flat arrow. as far as the bow is hard to shoot with all that speed it depends on how much you practice. if you shoot it all year you proably can hit with it quite well

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Kinetic Energy is indeed a function of Momentum (aka Moment of a Force-Measured in ft-lbs)

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

So what' s the video deal? What' s the subject matter of it? I must have misseed what it' s about.:eek:

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Krisken, I just minimize my posts and they stay open. I don' t know much about computers so I hope that helps !

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

They teach in the bowhunter safety class that quarting away shots on large game such as elk, moose, bear, etc. is a low percentage shot and should under no circumstances be taken. The only reccommended shot at large game is broadside. The reson is penetration can be a big problem on these animals and single lung hits are much more likely with quartering shots.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I talked with Dick_cress and we thought this info may be of some use to a few of you out there.

mass 6. Abbr. m Physics. The measure of the quantity of matter that a body or an object contains. The mass of the body is not dependent on gravity and therefore is different from but proportional to its weight.
---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc.

The above definition captures the gist of the problem. The equation for kinetic energy is correct: K.E. = ½ mV2. What is missing is the conversion factor for changing " weight" to " mass" . To do that you must divide the weight of the projectile by " g" , the value of the acceleration of gravity : 32.16 feet per second (or 32.174 fps depending on your reference). Also, to arrive at an answer in foot pounds you need to convert " grains" to " pounds" . There are 7000 grains in a pound, so you also need to divide the weight (or mass) of the projectile by 7000.
K.E. = kinetic energy (in foot pounds)
g = acceleration of gravity = 32.16
w = weight of the projectile (in grains)
m = mass of the projectile
V = velocity of the projectile (in feet per second)

K.E. = ½ m V²

or

K.E. = wV²/ 2g x 7000

or

K.E. = wV²/450240


For some strange reason I can' t seem to get the underline or division line to work. The above formula is wV² divided by 2 g x 7000 or wV² divided by 450240. Hope this helps.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Krisken,

Cool on the vid' s. I' ll get a copy of my copy to the Natal Study for you to view if you go the route up here.

Yes if you add bow weight and keep the same GPP, you will do very well, its unforutunate many do not do this or have this idea or even understand why.

We opt for quartering away or broadside with ALL big game not just Moose, but whitetails too. But as I am sure you are well aware, THINGS HAPPEN. Even for the most diligant and maticulous bowhunter, the odds of murphy' s law reaking havoc on a " perfect scenerio" is about as close to the triple digits as it can be and still be under 100% for a bowhunters career that it will happen atleast once at any given time.

You say no elk or brownies now...its just that, for now. You never did answer about the Ny Moose Draw? If you did draw, would you bowhunt them? And you never know what the future will hold. Who knows you might get a wild hair and draw a desert bighorn tag and do the hunt with the bow......but for now......

Last but not least, no you are well fine for the most hunted critter (FOAM...ha [X(]). But you also fail to see the rest of the " penetration equation" Its not as simple as 1+1= 4 [>:]. Yes they are important things, espically Momentum more so then KE. Their are however other variables that will play into how well or not so well your arrow will penetrate. And btw, there is never to much guns in momentum or penetration when your object is a complete pass through. Even on a less then desirable hit (gawd forbid), the more penetration you achieve, the higher the % of killing that animal will be. Not only a higher % of killing that animal but killing it fast. Its one thing to say we all live in a perfect world, the reality is we dont.

Look at the spine shot thread in the recent archieves. I can put over 2/3rds and arrow through a sheeps spine dead center but yet the average adult shooting as much weight with compounds against my longbow, carbon or alum arrows against my woods, on the average is not achieving (atleast on that thread) as much penetration as I did there and my longbow is set at only 60lbs with wood arras. Not to mention the animal I spine shot was on the average 150lbs heavier then some of the biggest whitetails shot body wise in the upper midwest. The difference between the thought process of of what I think and what the many others think is they feel there equipment will do well in a " perfect environment" I KNOW my equipment will do well in a less then " perfect environment" ! That not only goes for penetration. I can be up and running after breaking a string in shear minutes with very little to no retuning and/or resighting involved. For someone hunting the back 40, it might be the end of the day' s hunt followed by a couple days of down time. For someone on a fly out or even driving trip here in Ak or out west, it could mean the end of the hunt for many days or the total end to it being a hunting trip and making it a camping trip. I did have some problems with finish on arrows, that wont happen again. The sheep didnt know the difference and the arrow hit exactly where I " aimed" it. What does all this matter, not a hole heckuva lot to the average bowhunter, thats the reason they dont think of it or disregard it. And thats the same reason they miss the " less then desirable penetration" thought process of what would happen if....... I know, do you?

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Krisken,

You are going to have to shoot a bow at a bit over 800 ft/sec in order for a deer to not jump the string. That is the speed of sound. And with your lightweight arrows, the noise your bow makes when you release gets to the deer so quick they will jump the string at anything greater than 15 yards or so, and probably out to 30 yards. I too want to hear your explanation of how you are only getting one inch of drop out to 37 yards. Are you shooting in a vacuum?

Bill

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I can buy that a Quartering to shot is bad and I don' t plan to take one. However, please send me the name of the video that says the Quartering Away Shot is a bad shot.

I prefer the Quartering Away Shot and hope for it, as do most prominent bowhunters. It is a deadly shot with a large target area. However, if the Quartering Away angle is too great it must not be taken.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Bill,

Even better, the speed of sound is 1092 fps.

a neat chart I dug up

Air 1,092
Oxygen 1,040
Hydrogen 4,164
Carbonic Acid 858
River-water (Seine) 15c 4,741
Solution of Common Salt 18c 5,132
Common Alcohol 20c 4,218
Solution Chloride of calcium 23c 6,493

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

naw my longbow carries no better or no worse payload then any other bow. It is just a different device that is creating the same kind of energy. Its how one use' s that energy, that is the difference. You can seek to derive the most possible gains, or just waste it away following in suit with american traditions!

As we all know , deer have hooves and not claws.
therefore they are only able to duck by means of gravity , they are not able to grasp the ground with thier claws and pull themselves downward at a quicker rate of speed than that

so you are saying you would rather shoot faster so you dont miss if they do decide to try and " duck the string" ?

also do you understand the difference between a dry and a green shoulder? I am sure you do with one with hair, hide, meat, sinew, and finally bone...even then, shot angle, placement, and a couple other factors can and will come into play as the bone itself has variables across its sections.....shew all these variables.

As you can see just about any test where there is even the slighest amount of human element in this is seriously flawed. The problem is animals are not machines. When doing shooting tests, hopefully you can make some kind of shooting machine where the results are constant and there is no human error to have to try and factor in to the 1/4" . (your results are only as good as the shooter and I highly doubt you will find someone close to a shooting machine).

I guess I have to disagree, just because there is claws, they dont just relax all muscles and fall at the rate of gravity. That however is a different debate....... heck stand there and relax all your muscles and try and fall at gravity, straight down.

and like I said, you still havent quite or seem to ignore the other factors to penetration. its nice you atleast dont rely it soley on KE or Speed like many others. but its a shame you turn cheek

btw, get away from your whitetails, there are things that you will understand that otherwise would have never been brought to your attention! If you dont understand them you will seek to figure them out. These are just pure and simple facts

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Lamb1647, How can you say to someone you don' t know, that their bow is loud because they shoot a lightweight arrow? Have you heard mine ? It would be hard for me to imagine anyones bow being much quieter than mine. Also I only shoot 308 fps and with a 20 yrd pin , I get about 1.5" drop at 30 yrds and about 3" drop at 35 yrds shooting on the ground. So I definately can see how Krisken is getting what he says.
And I broke the entry shoulder and spine on a 3 1/2 year old buck this year as he was trying to duck my little 352 grn arrow at 30 yrds ,with a Spitfire EXPANDABLE!!

Why did he duck ..........a poor factory fletching job on my arrow......it was not bow noise.
Would I have hit him with a 250 fps arrow = NO!!
Should I have done more testing with my arrows before hunting=YES!!
Did they penetrate = I ate venison yesterday and have a head in the freezer to European mount !!:D

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

CBM SC,

I have stood in Archery Shops and been at 3-D shoots and heard the " quiet" 300+ fps bows that shooters bragged about. In reality they were far from quiet. Compare them to the quiet thud of a good longbow and they are " NOISEY" !!

Your shot at the buck was at the extreme end of the range at which deer will drop at the release of the arrow. I suspect yours tried to drop as he heard the arrow whistling as it zipped towards him. They definitely can drop to jump quicker than the arrow can get to them if they are within the 30 yard range.

And no, they don' t dig in, they drop, about 1 foot to jump when they hear a sound that they cannot identify and are within the roughly 17 to 30 yard range their first reaction is to drop. Of course, that is a general statement, but is far too often the case.

Bill

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Speed is nice. I' d take a fast bow that handles, shoots and tunes exactly the same as a slower bow any day of the week. But I have yet to see a fast bow that' s ANYWHERE near as as good at combining a smooth and easy draw, sweet shooting, braindead-easy tuning, forgiveness and consistent accuracy as a basic old round wheel bow. I gladly give up speed for those characteristics.

Speed is all you need? Outright BS, especially for a hunting rig. Forgiveness in imperfect conditions, precise accuracy and a quiet shot are what you NEED. Let speed fall where it may. It doesn' t matter if that speed winds up at 180 fps or 340 fps, you' re going to need a sharp knife after the shot.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Speed is a really great asset. I try to get all I can out of my bow. However, speed usually aquired compromising forgivness. I like a forgiving, shootable bow. The really fast bows have really short brace heights, thus making them less forgiving. So basically anyone with less than perfect form (which is most of us) will hit the wrong spot at 320-350 feet per second. But like anything, " It' s great if you like it" .

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

This is a technical term . . . but I need to make a correction. DEER DO HAVE CLAWS! Four of them to be exact withh the front being larger than the rear. They are called " Dewclaws!" [X(]

Unless you are shooting faster than the speed of sound the deer will react to your shot by ducking . . . hence the recommendation that the best aiming spot is 1/3 up from the belly. If and when they duck, they are then hit in the center of the lung area. I won' t argue with known fact.

I have shot deer that did not duck . . . but most have. It ain' t much but may be a prime reason that some arrows go over the back

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I don' t know about your test or your math wizard, but MY calculator says you' re wrong.

The speed of gravity is 32.16 fps^2. That' s right at 386 inches per second. Just relying on gravity alone, a deer could drop 20" in .052 second.

An arrow traveling 345 fps would take a solid .174 second to travel 20 yards, .261 second to travel 30 yards and .348 second to go 40 yards. And that' s assuming a constant 345 fps and not even taking air resistance into account! The actual flight time is longer. The deer can duck clean under your arrow AT LEAST 3 times faster than your 345 fps arrow can get to it.

My calculator says to get that 345 fps arrow into that deer before it can drop 3 1/4" , you' d need to be shooting from 1 yard away.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

The Acceleration of gravity is 32.16 ft/s^2 This is not a velocity it is the first derivative of the velocity equation and the second derivative of the position equation.

If we use equations from physics describing objects in free fall we need to look at the position equation (simplified for our purposes) y = (0.5)*g*t^2 that is how far the object (in feet) will fall in a given time t. The velocity component (simplified) of that is v = g*t this is how fast the object is falling (in feet/second) in given time t.
I agree with the above calcs.

Just relying on the acceleration of gravity in order for the deer to drop 3.25in or .27ft it would take 0.13 seconds.

In order for his arrow (at 345 feet/second) to get to target before the deer dropped 3.25in (just relying on gravity to drop the deer) he would have to shoot from a distance of 44.85 feet or roughly 15 yards.

All of this is assuming

- The arrow travels in a straight line.
- The arrow has no loss in velocity due to air resistance.
- The deer only falls due to the acceleration of gravity.
- Newton is correct.

Don’t even get me started on the momentum issue.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I havent bothered to figure the amount of momentum you are getting. Quite bluntly I probably wont either.

As per this ducking at gravity, I still disagree. Even after looking at Art' s info which would more closely relate to whats happening, a deer is using muscles to move. As it would be no different if you were on all fours. Hence there is more happening then just gravity. They' d have to be standing, have there legs whipped out from underneath for it to only be gravity.

as per your test, did a human shoot that arrow?

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

this is a very Interesting and educational thread

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Krisken, You are not alone on this subject. :D I love speed bows and wont have the slow ones anymore. I hate the arguement of you will only miss faster with a speed bow. [:@] Well I will say you only miss slower with a slow one:D. I shoot much much better with a faster bow than with a slower bow. I had or still have but will never shoot again a browning mirage sl hunter because it is too slow and I can' t stand it. I now have upgraded to a faster much faster bow the Darton maverick. :D I have a 32 inch draw and my arrows ( well not as fast as yours) but is moving along pretty good. I shoot an arrow that is 400 grains at just over 300fps. Smoking to me!!!! I could and did shoot a 444 gr arrow with this bow at 278fps but changed to the lighter for a faster setup. I am more accurate with it and have much more confidence with this setup lighter and faster promotes confidence TO ME GUYS. I have no problem shooting and hunting out to 45+ yards for deer NO PROBLEMS at all. I have practice tons at this range and I consider it a duck shot.

Now with regards to missing or hitting its the guy behind the bow not the bow or the speed a bow is capable so that is not a valid arguement. So one missing or hitting with a certain bow lets just say we can hit with the preverable bow be it a slow one or a fast one. I will take a faster setup any day of the week and twice on sunday. THis is me my opinion only. I feel better with it and this is what gives me confidence. And isn' t that the most important thing?

I don' t mean taking an arrow that is potentially dangerous to the bow itself and shoot it but a relative weight arrow for the bow like 5.5 - 6 lbs is great. I shoot my bow with a 29.5 inch arrow Pse carbon force compitition Pro arrows with a 100 gain head and 5 inch feathers and a nock insert and nock. total arrow weight is really 398. something so close enough to say 400 gr.

Well I have No problem slaying deer at anyrange like the one I took last year at 35 yards. I used a mechanical too shockwaves 100 and blew right through and killed the dirt on the other side.

Well kind of a tangent but I will take speed over slow any day of the week and damn proud of it.:D:D

Brian

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

It is a fact that a higher brace height will make a bow more forgiving. The reason is because the arrow comes off the string quicker and any form impurity after that point is minimized. Speed bows get their speed from having short brace heights, because the longer the arrow is on the string, the more energy is tranferred to the arrow. During that time any torque, push, drop, or pull (to name a few) that a shooter may do affects the arrow flight. I am not saying that nobody can accuratly shoot a speed bow with a short brace height, because most experienced shooters can. However, as you shoot, you tire with any bow. As you tire your form breaks down and sometimes you don' t even know it. For example, It is why you start shooting right and you can' t figure out why. When you tire and your form fails in one area or another a longer brace height bow makes it matter less. Speed bows work fine for 3-d shooting because you are only shooting 30 or 40 arrows one at each target and you have a ten or fifteen minute break between shots. however, on a field round you shoot four consecutive shots at each target with a total of 112 shots in a round. Most shooters (not all) will experience a form of tiring in a field round. It really depends on the type of shooting you will be doing.

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Krisken, I said I am here with ya. I guess you missed my post. I am in full support of ya. Go speed, I' ll take ya anyday.

Well to the arguement of shorter brace height I mentioned that assumeing We can shoot all bows equally well. Because I shoot my shorter brace height better than my longer one. But thats me. So no arguement of one is more accurate than another please its the nut behind the bow that counts. If one can' t shoot it then fine others can with no problems at all. So if we are equally effective with either a fast one or a slow one what I want is a fast one. No slow ones need apply.:D

Brian

Krisken I with ya I with ya!!!!:D:D:D:D

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

A spooked buck looking directly at the hunter... What do I think about a shot like that on a video? Frankly, that kind of crap is why I don' t watch hunting videos very much. Always some clown bending ethics (assuming they have any) to put an animal on the ground.

In this case, it' s a shot I wouldn' t even attempt because of the absolute certainty the buck would jump the string. Of course, I' M NOT GETTING PAID TO PUT KILL SHOTS ON VIDEO, nor am I in a survival situation where I must kill the animal in order to live. So, I can exercise a good bit of reason in what shot opportunities I take.

This deer in question was a guaranteed string jumper. What the ' hunter' did was pick that low aim point, sucked up his BVD' s in a major pucker, and pulled the trigger, just hoping for the best. He got lucky and the deer jumped into the arrow. Yep. That' s just what everybody needs to be doing, isn' t it. [:@]

So far, looking at all your points in favor of speed, one would get the idea that all you' ve basically said is you want to shoot at long range and at deer looking directly at you, and speed will give you a chance. I don' t think you' ll get enough speed to make it work. You need a gun.

How about just moving in closer and taking shots at relaxed animals? You know, actually BOWHUNTING.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Kristen, I' d really have to agree with Arthur on that. You have to take an aweful lot of hunting videos and programs for what they are worth. I have seen an aweful lot of shots taken in those shows and videos that I personally would not have taken. I have even seen one shot at a deer walking toward a stand at about 5 yards that a guy took that he uses as an intro to his show. I cringe when I see it. I would defineteley not recommend shooting at a fully alerted deer at 32 yards. You are really asking for trouble no matter what setup you use.


Kristen, was this a shot that you would support taking?

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Hi ya' ll I am new to the forum but not to bow hunting
I have been bow hunting for drawing on 30 years and have taken 40 some odd witetails with a bow

I myself can see all the reasons why alot of people want speed but in my opinion the super lite stuff should be left on the 3D coarses,and turkey, and antilope hunting

I know that with my experiance most deer that I have taken have come within 15yards or less so speed for hunting is something that I cannot justify to throw out pure devisating energy and raw power

We as hunters owe it to the Sport , game we hunt, and other Sportsmen to be as ehtical as we can

40-50 yard shots and over? NOT ME in hunting situations there are far to many veriables to deal with! your chances of wounding an animal starts to increase with every extra yard

Yes you may be a great shot on target but in a hunting situation there are to many things that can go wrong

Most important in bow hunting is to Have sharp broadheads, take high percentage shots, know your limitations, and have patiance

Just my 2 cents worth