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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I' m not sure what point you' re trying to make with that one example. I recall a Realtree video showing a buck ducking an arrow at < 20 yards. The hunter appears to shoot high, but in slow motion replay and the help of a telestrator, the aiming point was fine. The deer simply jumped the string. I don' t understand your reasoning here.

On a side note, I remember reading an article several years ago where the author stated if you believe the deer is going to jump the string you should aim at the very very bottom of its chest. Obviously, the question comes to mind- what if the deer doesn' t drop? At best you gave him a haircut, but you probably missed. That article always made me laugh.

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Well I guess I am going to have to add some sanity to this thread.

My position on this is...........
that if two diff. weight arrows are shot out of the same bow
the lighter one will shoot faster..

Now that should put me in the firing lane:D:D;)

Bring it on!!!!!!!!![:o][>:]

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Kirsken,

Here is a video you need to watch,

Tracking before and after with Mike Lapinski made by Stone Wolf Productions.
1-800-237-0060

Not only does it show a good number of " jumping the string" it also shows where the arrow would have impacted if the deer didnt move and/or outlines of the vitals.
Not to mention many poor penetration shots by some folks, kinda makes me wonder.....good vid bar none for what you are looking for.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

and btw, just about any test done with even minimal human involvement is skewed atleast to some degree.

and 4 1/2 inches, watch that vid, you' ll be amazed at how far they drop even at the famed 20 yards!



Btw, this is the third time I have asked you about your Ny Moose hunt? Whats the deal here, you just refuse to look at the possibility you might get pass hunting something more the size of a big dog then a truely big game animal? [X(]

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Man, I cant believe this ones still going. Ive forgot what Kirskens original point was.Arthur, Like always I appreciate your no nonsense aproach and how you wade through the b.s.Never an opinion, just the facts maam. Once again, well stated. Supermag, a higher brace ht. will always average out for the masses as being more accurate. It doesnt matter which you shoot better personally. Everyones different, but were talking percentages. Take a hundred people, or a thousand, or a million, or all them little yellow guys in China, and the higher percentage will shoot the higher brace more accurately overall. Its not a fact. Its physics. How longs the pointy thing, on the string. Higher brace, less time to flinch and gag. Nuff said.:D

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

The original topic was: " Speed is all you need! (?)

One thing should be abundantly clear; Speed without MASS achieves nothing. [&:]

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

This is where I need to jump in again.....

If with this statement you mean that momentum is important but also that a certain level of speed is necessary in order to maintain a relatively flat trajectory then I agree with you.

However, if you are implying that a 650 grain arrow traveling at 200 fps is in some way " better" in terms of a total practical hunting setup in comparison with a 425 grain arrow traveling at 270 fps then I really have to disagree.

Again, it takes a moderate amount of speed, kinetic energy and momentum to work in tandem in order to create more of an ideal combination for a variety of bowhunting situations. As I made mention of in another post...what good is alot of speed without the mass behind it to provide penetration?...what good is a ton of mass if the arrow arcs like a rainbow and the archer cannot judge distance?

You need a good combination of all three of these characteristics in order to have a good all-around setup.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

For me, yes. The 650 grain arrow at 200 fps or so is better, because that is what I like. A 425 grain arrow at 270 fps is fine and I know it will do the job on most anything in North America, as will mine. But I guarantee if I had the chance to vote on making a 400 grain minimum arrow weight for hunting, I' d be checking the YES box. Yes, even for light draw weight bows. Arrow mass comes into play for light draw bows because they lack energy.

Some well seasoned shooters are capable of tuning and controlling broadheads with those sub-400 grain toothpicks out of high poundage rigs and are capable of using them in the woods. From what I' ve seen over the past 6-7 years of conducting proficiency tests for a local WMA, the guys that can handle that speed would number less than one in 500, maybe less than one in a thousand. What expert shooters ' need' and what the average shooter can get away with are way different things. The below average shooter would be a danger to everyone and everything in the woods with a 345 fps setup!

Like I said before, speed is fine as long as you can control it. But there are far more people who would be far better off shooting 250 fps and under than there are that can shoot 300 fps and over.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I cannot argue with that Arthur but then there are also those folks that would probably do just fine shooting in the 250 to 300 fps range if they just practiced a bit more...:)

Exactly. I have heard you make mention of this on several occasions...but I have also heard that you are good at judging distance. Though the gain may be only slightly more than marginal I still believe it offers enough of an advantage without having to trade off other important concerns such as a quiet bow, penetration, etc....

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Frank, that word ' IF' is a tiny little thing, but it' s got a lot of meaning to it.

It' s true that " IF" many people practiced more, they could handle faster equipment. Only problem is, most don' t (or won' t) make time for practice. Dedicated bowhunters and archers shoot because they enjoy it, but the vast majority of people in the woods these days are NOT dedicated bowhunters. Most are absolutely NOT dedicated archers. To them, it' s nothing more than a way to get out in the woods before gun season. Shooting for practice sounds like work to them rather than something to get out and enjoy just for it' s own sake.

High speed is fine for those that enjoy it and are good enough to handle it. Problem is, they are a small fraction of all those that hit the woods. For those of you that are good enough, congratulations. Us mere mortals stand in awe of your prowess.:D

I' ll make a deal with whoever thinks everyone needs speed. I' ll shoot your high speed bow if you' ll take a 10 mile hike wearing my size 15 AA boots. Then we can sit back and discuss how certain things fit certain people and not fit others at all.

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Sometimes Arthur..your sense of humor really gets me going....:D . You should be the last person trying to throw yourself in with " mere mortals" with your 7 foot frame and gargantuan arms.....:D

I cannot argue with the suggestion that a majority of the bowhunters out there are seasonal shooters at best but your comments bring something else to mind. With the relatively consistant increases in speed over the years that speed range that you are quoting as " too fast" might eventually be considered " slow" by comparison to what could potentially be obtained with new designs in limbs, strings, cams, etc.... Then a person will be able to shoot a 600 grain arrow at 270 fps and get the best of both of our worlds. What would you say to them then? Is 270 fps still too fast if there is a heavy arrow to back it up?

Finally,

I think I almost fit your criteria in terms of speed and shoe size. I will take you up on that....:D

Krisken,

Even though my own favorite hunting weight arrows fall close to that 400 grain mark I cannot honestly say that they will work for every setup out there. Sure the 400 grain minimum might help with those folks who are shooting arrows that are not generating enough KE or momentum but, on the other hand saying that a 400 grain arrow is the heaviest that one should shoot really puts too much emphasis on the trajectory differences for the various arrow weights that are currently used.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

400 grain standard??? For who??? I' ll stick with my 700 grain standard with 14%FOC. It is something that I always seem to come back to. Granted, I get the itch to try other stuff like the light carbons. A few years back I used a 400 grain arrow for a year. And guess what? I got a cracked limb, I couldn' t get the fixed broadheads to fly very straight, and I couldn' t pull them out of a target for beans. Granted the trajectory was real nice on them compared to the heavy arrows and they flew very fast. But the trade off was just not there, since I couldn' t get the accuracy that I wanted. Judging distance is not a problem for me, and as long as you are farily accurate in judging distance, everything works out fine with a heavy arrow. If you can' t judge within about 4 yards, then you may have a problem. Just to be sure, I always take my range finder in the woods with me and take readings on stationary objects. Not really a problem at all. And I think that the judging didtance thing gets way overdone as an arguement not to use heavier arrows traveling at lower speeds.

I will ackowledge though that the light weight arrows do work for certain individuals. My advice though is to be honest with yourself as to your ability. You will be much happier if you do. I have been at this for 23 years now, and still don' t feel confortable shooting light speedy arrows while hunting.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I have tried to keep up reading all the posts since this began, AND tried to keep them sorted in my pea brain (tough task at times). What I have come to the conclusion of is this.

1. That to each his own.:D That in the proper hands (properly set up) the faster/lighter setup will gain the shooter certain advantages and be a leathal weapon, BUT in the less skilled hands(i.e. poor shooting mechanics), the same set up can be a dangerous weapon which is more likely to maim or wound an animal than kill it[:' (]. Conversly, a slower/heavier set up (properly set up) will gain the shooter certain (albeit different) advantages and be a leathal weapon, BUT in the less skilled hands (i.e. poor distance judge), the same setup can be a dangerous weapon which is more likely to maim or wound an animal than kill it[:' (]. There for, use the setup you can consistantly shoot good and achieve proper arrow placement with and when you are done practicing go out and practice some more.

2. That we as a bowhunting community have failed to reach a concensus on the optimal measurement for effectivly doing the work we ask our bows and arrows to do. :( You have all discussed many valid points, each with its merits, each with its flaws (whether admitted or not), but none of which are able to accuratly measure a standard which will apply in the mass majority of the cases. Speed, KE, momentum all factor in and PA said it well, BUT in what combination do they achieve the optimum? (Thats what the debates about isn' t it) Until we do achieve the measurement, we will have to fall back to #1 and use what we are best capable with. I have yet to see someone address the issues as we progress down range (maybe I missed it) knowing we lose speed and energy as we go. I guess that gets back into the momentum issue, but how are we measuring it at the point of impact where it matters? And does this accuratly relfect what we need to know?

3. I know that a well place rock from a sling shot is capable of killing, but will it do the job in an ethical and quick manner with a relatively high degree of success? In hunting, each of us has our own beliefs and dergees of ethics and each of us will defend our position as the right one. All of us, if admitted, have seen shots (distance, angles, obscured, etc.) in the hunting community (either vidio, tv, or in person) that we believe never should have been attempted (in our ethical view) while also seeing shots passed up on that we believe we could have easily acchomplished. Should we allow our capabilities to override or change our views on the ethicallity of a particualr shot (i.e the fast/light thinking " I can out shoot the deers reactions if it were to jump the string" or the slower/heavier thinking " I can only see the back edge of the shoulder, but I can drive right through should the deer move and I hit the shoulder blade" ). I don' t believe out ethics should be changed with or by our equipment. Skill may change our ability, but should not change our ethical view of a particular shot.

My biggest fear in the whole debate is that a person will try to shoot a setup that they are not proficient at because they side with someones elses beliefs.

After 15 years of bowhunting, I know what works for me.:DBut, it has taken that long to know what works within my capabilities. Confidence in a set up goes a long way, confidence in your set up.

If it' s sharp, and it' s placed right, does it matter if it goes through by a foot of by 10 yards...oops...there I go again...that' s what we' re debating... but how do we accurately measure what and arrow will actually do upon impact?

Stay with it though, I' m up for learning even more! ;)

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I totally agree with ya on the BH issue but I am just saying that if for a moment we agree that we shoot both bows equally well I would want a faster one over a slow one.


AS stated before but I will reverse because we can

" mass without speed means NOTHING either" :D:D

I guess it all comes down to what we all prefer and will justify what we use. I just like the speed and the confidence in what I use gives me in the field.

Brian

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I am not sure what you mean by that???

If you would like me to derive some equations I would be more than happy to.(I have a pretty good math background.) Let me know what would be helpful.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

We' ve already got ' em, don' t we, Frank? I was getting 250 fps with 580 grain 2315' s from my old Hoyt Raider at 70 pounds with the old style Command Cams, Intruder limbs and 32" draw, using an extra long string loop. Got about the same speed with an old Darton Lightning. Hand me a brand new hotrod BowTech and I bet I could beat the devil out of that speed....

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

This is recopied from page three of this thread . . . and it derives the 4502400 and presents the logic to do so . . . it was originally derived by Lrac.

Talked with Dick_cress and we thought this info may be of some use to a few of you out there.

mass 6. Abbr. m Physics. The measure of the quantity of matter that a body or an object contains. The mass of the body is not dependent on gravity and therefore is different from but proportional to its weight.
---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc.

The above definition captures the gist of the problem. The equation for kinetic energy is correct: K.E. = ½ mV2. What is missing is the conversion factor for changing " weight" to " mass" . To do that you must divide the weight of the projectile by " g" , the value of the acceleration of gravity : 32.16 feet per second (or 32.174 fps depending on your reference). Also, to arrive at an answer in foot pounds you need to convert " grains" to " pounds" . There are 7000 grains in a pound, so you also need to divide the weight (or mass) of the projectile by 7000.
K.E. = kinetic energy (in foot pounds)
g = acceleration of gravity = 32.16
w = weight of the projectile (in grains)
m = mass of the projectile
V = velocity of the projectile (in feet per second)

K.E. = ½ m V²

or

K.E. = wV²/ 2g x 7000

or

K.E. = wV²/450240


For some strange reason I can' t seem to get the underline or division line to work. The above formula is wV² divided by 2 g x 7000 or wV² divided by 450240. Hope this helps.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I guess my only stink with that Pa, is I would wouldnt be suprised at all to say almost or slightly over 70% of the speed bow folks to be using range finders. That figure could and probably is quite higher.

That said, if the only loss is pre determining distances and or marking them out prior to a hunt in some way shape or form for a slower heavier, higher momentum arrow and even some arc to it, heck for that matter, what you all would consider low KE 30-40foot poounds, And achieve almost total penetration on something oh, say the size of a average bull moose

VS

The guy shooting screaming super light arrows arrows for the sake of his/her lack of ability of judging yardage in which case he more likely owns and uses a range finder to help him/her aid in pin point accuracy, shoot and wound a moose in only hitting a rib bone.

(Woody, you can go ahead an pipe in here on knuckleheads moose experience before he left)

Now does it really matter, you aint hunting moose.....probably not. But it does when a situation like Krisken states, in shooting a shoulder and getting no penetration. I think I preached that gig back from post one......a worst case scenario.

The problem with the two equations is one factors in both speed and weight un biasedly. The other is speed biased.

One is also measured only till impact where the other is what is going to help carry the object of concern through, be it a bullet, arrow, slugs. (the only difference is in how they kill).

There is also some good reading on Bob Robb' s elk hunting book. Col. Ret Bodington has a great article in there. You would be amazed to see some of the same things when it relates to the thought process and reasonings to penetration from rifles to bows. Just something else to get a good foundation of knowledge from even if its from the dark side .....[&:]

Alaska is one of the few states I know of (actually the only but I know if I say only I' ll be wrong), to have an arrow weight standard.

There is a slight flaw to even this. Espically when they are trying to madate a 900 grain arrow for critters like moose and bison, and a 750 grain arrow for caribou and blacktails sized critters. Its a point of dimishing returns. I dont think many folks push the to heavy issue to much as they really feel to heavy isnt an issue. I however feel differently. I also feel this is where I agree with Pa a slight bit albeit for different reasons.

I also was helping out the state in its bowhunter ed classes. I think what bothered me the didnt have anything to do with light speed folks. It was the amount of archers and " bowhunters" out there that just couldnt hit the broad side of a barn from the inside out! 5 of 8 arrows in the kill zone, with 2 arrows in the high 20 yards, everything else 22 yards or less on deer sized animals, and they manage to fail time and time again, thats with the use of range finders, sights, optics, let offs, release, gizmo this gadget that. It has nothing to do with them not handling speed up here, they cant figure out what end is up! :(

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Which Knucklehead Dan? There are so many. [:' (]

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Where to begin? Ahhh, my eyes are killing me as I just spent the last half hour typing up a post for a thread regarding single/dual cams and split/solid limbs over an Edersbow. My fingers are tired and my mind is about fried but here it goes....

Arthur,

Yes, you and I come close to that measurement but it takes a long draw length and a relatively heavy draw weight to achieve it. I am referring to the time when the average archery can get away with those speeds at an average draw length and a medium draw weight (60 lbs). Ofcourse, I have a feeling I know what your answer is going to be...." ..then I would switch to an 800 grain arrow for even more momentum while still sticking to my 220-250 fps speed range..." ...or at least that is how I would approach it from your standpoint. :)

Lilhunter,

Yes, I would bet you are correct. I use a laser rangefinder and my bow speed is usually in the mid 270' s range with a 430 grain arrow. I would not call that smokin' fast but a little better than what I have seen from the average bowhunter' s setup. My view of this situation and in defense of my setup is " better safe than sorry" . Assuming " left to right" accuracy is a given then only vertical accuracy needs to be considered. Using a laser rangefinder and a relatively fast setup greatly reduces the chance of a vertical miss or wounding shot.

Now, given the two scenarios you illustrated I believe the former to be the most efficient and potentially the most ethical since it results in either a miss or a complete pass through. However, given unlimited options I would choose neither and that is a direct result of my continuing perspective of moderation. I do not want a 330 fps arrow that only weighs 330 grains and has plenty of KE and relatively low momentum....but on the other hand I do not want a 200 fps arrow that weighs 650 grains and has relatively good KE and plenty of momentum but also has an arching trajectory.

I want the best of both worlds and regularly suggest something in between both extremes. Shoot a 260 or 270 fps bow with a 425-450 grain arrow that will not only have plenty of KE and momentum but also a relatively flat enough trajectory to help with errors in judging distance.

Ok, I think it is time for me to call it quits for the night....my eyes are starting to loose focus....:)

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

I shoot a bow with 241 fps and a KE of 60 ft-lbs . . . and I carry and use when I can a laser rangefinder. [X(]

Washington State does have legal requirements for our arrows. Expandable are prohibited. We must shoot an arrow of 20 or more inches in length (including broadhead) and it must weigh 6 gr per pound of draw weight.

Kinetic Energy is a law of physics but not an instrument used to measure penetration. It is a product of and is dependent upon mass and speed. It is logical . . . to me at least that the greater the KE the more penetration we can expect. Each of us must develop, with our equipment the combination of two that works for us and develops a KE factor that will allow us to harvest the game we are after.

So far all of my shots are passthroughs so my combo works great for me.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

well said Pa!

Dick, you contradicted yourself. No worries, I see where you are are going.


Woody,

I cant remember his name, drove the lil purple car, shot for John (I believe), and it wasnt Butch. Army guy, had a daughter...sure that helps lol.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Frank, maybe someday they' ll get to the point where Joe Average can shoot a 600 grain arrow from a 60 pound bow at 29" draw. I just hope they can figure out a way to do it and still keep bows shootable for newcomers and the couch potato bowhunter wannabes that Lilhunter spoke of.

I' ve overseen several proficiency tests that our club conducts for a nearby WMA and I' ve seen exactly the same thing he has. Guys coming in, registering and wiping cobwebs off their rest as they walk down to the course. The rules call for 14 deer sized 3D targets, 30 yards max, 10-8-5 scoring and 80% of the maximum possible score to qualify. Basically an 8-ring on each target. Binoculars and rangefinders are allowed. Slam dunk for someone who regularly shoots 3D, no matter what weight arrows they shoot or what speed they' re getting, even without a rangefinder. You' d be amazed at how many people carrying state of the art bows and carbon arrows can' t break 100 points on the round.

A miss is a miss, no matter how fast the arrow is flying.

But that' s not really the point. If bows get to the point where only experienced and skilled shooters can be proficient with them, then it' s going to be awful tough for newcomers to get into the sport. As those experience and skilled shooters grow old and drop out, where are the newbies going to come from to replace them? You reckon they' ll have to start out with traditional to learn how to shoot and then work their way up to compouds? Or will they just blow it off altogether? I' m thinking that when your scenario comes to pass, it will be the beginning of the end for hunting with compounds and traditional will reign supreme again.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

How?

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

The serious answer is, whichever one gets within his effective range, makes a good shot selection and properly places a well executed shot.

Just to clarify things: Are we talking about BOWHUNTING or strictly about KILLING? If all I was concerned about was killing a deer, then I wouldn' t shoot a bow at all. A gun is much more efficient beyond 30 yards and I haven' t seen a deer yet that can jump the string on a bullet. I bowhunt especially so I HAVE to get within 30 yards of a deer. 20 yards is even better.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Krisken:
In the formula: KE is the unknown

Mass- weight of the arrow in grains (weight in grams/7000) (I have a scale and I weigh my arrows with broadheads) Therefore this is a GIVEN.
Velocity- Speed of the arrow in fps (As shot through a chronograph in fps-this also is GIVEN).

The 450240 is a constant that is derived from the basic trajectory formula 1/2 of the Mass times velocity squared. The derivation becomes 2 X the speed of gravity (32.16) times 7000 (the weight conversion)

Plug the given values into the formula KE=Mass (VelocityXVelocity/450240) and you have only one unknown . . . the Kinetic Energy.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

and the very next half of the paragraph...........


I think people are failing to see the jist of KE.....its IMPACT oriented. KE does not drive an arrow through, Momentum is what keeps the arrow penetrating. Granted there is other factors then just these two but you are only looking at these two subjects at hand. Not to mention one takes one factor in account twice as much as the other and the fact these KE and Mom are both relating to different factors of the total penetration scheme but yet still KE seems to be the big factor. Why? Hype, market sales, a simplier understanding maybe?

Granted you need BOTH, but whats more important when your hole goal is penetrating an animal, a high KE or high Mom? ON whitetails, it really shouldnt matter, even with my longbow I can drive through shoulders on whitetails.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

....now it is my turn to say " Well said" Lilhunter. :)


Arthur,

I do not doubt your personal experiences with those proficiency tests and believe that I would find the same thing if they were conducted at some of the clubs that I belong to.

I think you might have read too much into my reference about bows that shoot 600 grain arrows at 270 fps. :D I was not implying that they needed to have a short brace height or a stiff draw force curve to achieve this but rather an advancement in the materials we use, etc... would allow these type of numbers to be achieved relatively easily without having to resort to factors that would make it difficult for the newcomer to participate in our sport.

Ahh, the age-old quote of the fast miss. :) Just for the sake of playing devil' s advocate the opposite could also be a true....

A miss is a miss no matter how much momentum or kinetic energy the arrow is carrying. [:-]:D

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

And there are plenty of knuckleheads that can miss with a rifle just as easy.

If you haven' t guessed already... I question the motives of those who feel speed is the end all, be all for a hunting bow. I want to know WHY they bowhunt in the first place. Is it for the challenge and thrill of the hunt or simply to kill an animal? I want to know WHY they seem to feel obligated to shoot 35, 40 yards and further.

Even out west where they say they have to shoot longer distances, I don' t believe it. You shoot longer distances because it' s -easier- to lob one out there than it is to get closer. It' s also easier to shoot ' em with a gun, so if easy is what someone wants, then they need to be gun hunting instead of trying to make bowhunting easier.

Okay, there' s the cue for someone to start hollering ' elitist.' My honest opinion though.

RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

ArthurP, First of all I resemble that remark about using a fast bow and shooting at animals at 30 or 40 yards or whatever you said. I shot my first deer with a bow at 35 yards and double lunged him and He only went 40 yards. My second deer that year that was last year not this past one was shot at 17 yards. I have no problem with shooting at 45 yards and don' t think I am wrong and am totally thrilled with taking an animal (deer) at that range. Now don' t think that I would pass on a buck because he was too close and I want to shoot at him farther away. Not even close. I really am enjoying bowhunting since I started in fall of 2001. But don' t think that I have been only shoot a bow since then NOPE I have shot for years and have been taking lessons from professional and shot some competition also Albeit I did this years ago. BUt I have no doubts about me hitting the mark on a deer at 45 yards ITS a DUCK SHOT. I don' t consider a long shot till after 45 yards. And no I hear you saying why do you hunt with a bow then! I enjoy the challenge to it. I enjoy the practice involved and all the preparation involved in finding that perfect place that will bring a deer to within 45 yards. Not like muzzelloader or rifle season where you just have to be in an area that can look over a couple 100 yards to be able to harvest him.

I hope you are not saying or questioning me for my beliefs as to my ethics and joy of bowhunting because I would take a 45 yard shot. I guess if it is then I would say to me a 45 yarder to me would be like a 15-20 yarder for most.

I am enjoying bowhunting more and more as time goes by and I do like a fast bow. I also wont shoot a needle at the speen of light. Moderation moderation moderation. If I can shoot a bow that shoots an arrow of 550 grains at 250 or a 400 gr arrow at 325 I want the 400 at 325 Its just me I like the feeling of being able to having a flatter trajectory with the faster bow. Now another reason I have is to my first buck I took that was at 35 yards. I didn' t expect to see him come from that direction totally not where I thought he would of came from but it does happen as we all know. Well he came in a direction that I didn' t know and I didn' t have any shooting lanes in which to shoot. So I just watched and looked ahead to see where he might go and where I can take a shot at. So I find one and see that I have to be able to put my shot through 2 trees then under a branch and over a branch If you can see this in your mind it makes up a little square for me to get the arrow there. Now this little area I had to shoot from was about 15 yards before the deer So I needed the speed of the arrow to have a flat enough trajectory to make it through the space and stay flat enought to make a good hit. Well As stated before I double lunged him and he only went 40 yards.

So I guess with this case speed helped me out. ANd No range finder was used at all. If I had a slower bow I couldn' t of shot at this deer. But as it is he was my first with a bow and is PROUDLY displayed on my wall. He is not the biggest buck but a nice 8 pointer and am as proud as hell.

I can still remember every detail from that hunt and I am smiling now as I type this.

And just incase you think I am nuts or not a consciencous hunter or non ethical hunter I had this past year the biggest buck I have seen in the woods for me that is. He was a beauty of an 8 pointer. I had him come in to about 5 yards of my stand and I didn' t shoot do to not the right angle. He was only straight at me and then went straight way no good shooting angle. I was crushed but I felt good to be able to see him and not make a mistake of shooting at the back of an animal and having the chance of wounding him.
I just hope to get a crack at him this year. Well that is about as good as I can put it for me liking a faster bow than a slower bow providing I can shoot them equally as well.

Brian

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RE: Speed is all you need! (?)
 

Krisken there are too many variables to come to an equation that would determine a specific penetration on a specific animal. Somewhere in the vastness of my multi-gig hard drive, I have a table that identifies a range of Kinetic Energies recommended to take a specific animal. But that is as close as one could come.

They do not say that these are the only KE factors that would work, only that they are recommended values. I try to stay within these values and I' d confidently tackle a griz with my 60 ft-lbs of KE in a heartbeat.

In my mind, I think the only way to be sure is to test each setup in a hunting situation which in itself is full of incalculable variables.