RE: The Kill
 

Hardest thing I've ever been through, Bruce.

Well put. I'm out on this one. That represents how I feel, too.

RE: The Kill
 

Good post blackfish

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Absolutely not. It is what it is to each of us. Here's what I think: I'm right. You're right. GMMAT's right. PreacherTony is right. Blackfish is right.... and on and on right on down the list. There just isn't a right or wrong answer to this question, which is why the debate could run forever.

RE: The Kill
 

Hmmm...very tough and thought provoking question. I didn't vote, because I am not sure of my real answer. I see a lot of answers, and IMO, some answers come from those that didn't really look as deep as the question requires (but I do think there are no wrong answers, only right individual thoughts). This "hunter's paradox" is certainly what keeps all anti's, and many non-hunters from understanding hunters and hunting. After all, how can it be that I would do all I can to avoid killing a buck with my truck, or would rescue that buck from a pack of stray dogs one day, and then the very next not hesitate to run my arrow thru him?

Make no mistake...I go hunting to be successful hopefully each and every time I go. Success is defined by me as an animal dying. I do hunt to kill, and do not claim to hunt for the experience, to enjoy nature, to feed my family, to help the herd, etc. Yes I love deer meat, I like to be outside, I like to see animals, I fill lots of antlerless tags...but I get up on the coldest days, at stupid early hours, and sit in most decidely unpleasent conditions in a tree in order to kill something pure and simple. If I wanted to be one with nature, I would go out when it is pleasant, and carry a camera. If I needed to feed my family, I would stop when sufficient meat has been obtained. If I wanted to be a herd manager, I would hunt with a rifle much more frequently.

I love it when I see that perfect arrow hit, see or hear the crash, and all that goes with it. No doubt, for me a good day with a deer kill is made better by multiple kills.

Do I love to kill though? Probably not, really.

Let's say a flood forced hundreds of deer into an area they couldn't escape, but would eventually drown. DNR calls on hunters to come shoot them so they can be utilized. Would I enjoy walking up to that deer and killing it? Nope, definitely not. For those that say they actually love the kill...I would have to assume you would love that killing scenario also, right? Don't cloud the issue with "fair chase" and such if you answer that though, cause killing is killing...fair chase doesn't affect the act, only the lead in.

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I see where you're going with that, and it's a good way to look at it. In this case, I wouldn't enjoy that kill. That's more along the lines of an extermination or an execution. I stand behind what I've said on here. I love the kill... as a part of the hunt. A kill during a hunt and in your scenarioare both ending the lives of something, but in your scenario there's no pursuit,... no chance involved,... no hunt,... no adrenalin rush as the prey moves into view and then into range,... no sense of elation when you see the arrow hit home and see or hear the deer pile up. There would be no enjoyment in the above situation for me at all.

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I have to admit...I LOVE THE THRILL OF THE KILL...it's the only reason that I get up that early and set out in all kinds of weather.

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I love the way you put this, LC .... That is exatly how I feel ....

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Hunting and killing other animals(species) other than human animals (species)is a natural act. When we lose that predatory nature we have become out of balance with nature andare more likely to be highly stressed and in a constant conflict with our true selves!

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I feel the same way! Hunting involves killing. It's part of it, I have No Desire to hunt without killing. That does not make me a Axe murderer waiting to break out:eek:Anything in life can be as complicated or as simple as you make it.

Lots of people Love Complexity and Drama. Maybe it's because I have hunted and killed animals as long as I can remember.

It's a natural thing to me, Hunting and Killing;)

Dan

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It is a natural thing, Dan. Always has been. Hopefully always will be.

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Proably the biggest apples to Oranges comparison I've ever seen on this site.

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Why?

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Bruce,
This isn't an inflammatory question, it's a sincere one. Are you justlooking to debate this issue, or do you really believe that the killing of a family pet because it has to be put downand killing a deer during bowseason fall into the same category? To me, that would be like saying a drive-by shooting fatalityand killing an enemy in battle are the same. While both are killing, they are two totally different things.

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Fine....we'll do it your way.....but I don't think I'd wanna be associated with any of them that ENJOY that type killing, either.;)

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Agreed, Jeff. I was simply attempting to point out thedifferences between the two examples.:)

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I would not have any bad feelings about putting a bullet in a child molersters head, does that make me bad?

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I believe that necessary killings fall into the same basic category which is why I had other references in my post and not just the pet reference. To put a pet out of any particular misery it may be in(old age, crippled, etc.)it is necessary to kill it. To eat my chickens it is necessary to kill them. To eat a deer it is necessary to kill it. Did I enjoy killing my pet? NO. Did I enjoy killing my chickens? No. Did I enjoy enjoy killing the deer? No. When killing the deer and chickens I also didn't suffer like I did when I have had to kill a pet BUT I didn't necessarily enjoy it. When I killed the fox I didn't enjoy that either but it was him or my chickens so it was a necessary killing. Killing varmints is necessary. Do I enjoy it? No.

Some folks were saying why would we hunt if we didn't enjoy the kill. I was trying to point out that you don't need to enjoy killing to enjoy hunting and, ultimately, killing something. I could have easily said to those that enjoy killing, why not buy live animals (chickens, goats, pigs, etc.) and kill them. But I am sure I would have heard about enjoying the hunt too.

We can all enjoy the hunt and eating the animals we hunt but some of us don't necessarily get that rush when we kill something. Doesn't mean we should hunt with paintballs ;).

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Gary I wont debate this with you......but I will say I don't think you've thought this through. If you have.....I'd be surprised.

Nobody said anythig about feeling bad (afterwards). Would you "enjoy" it whie you were doing it?

I don't need to know the answer to that.

RE: The Kill
 

I understand where you're coming from now, and I can relate. When I was growing up my parents had chickens and even rabbits for a while. I hated it when I had to kill them, but it had to be done. I've never had to have one of my dogs put down, but I have had to hold one of my beagles as it died from a snakebite. Just so you know, I understand and respect your views on this. They just differ from mine a little... that's all.;)

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The context of the question was, "the kill part of the bowhunt" ...... it NEVER was, "Killing" ........and the paintball analogy fits, IF you have another way of getting venison or you prefer beef over venison .... noone has yet to comment on that ...

RE: The Kill
 

I know that I'm getting ready to get flamed but here it goes.To start I didn't read all 14 pages of this but there's know way that I could get out of bed and set in 5 degree weather for hours if Ididn't enjoy the kill. As far as the pet thing goes I have no love for animals, sorry I just don't. That doesn't mean that I go around the neighborhood abducted people cats and stangling them but in my family when something needs to be put down they know who to call because I have know emotional attachement and can do what needs to be done.Does that make me some kind of backwoods weirdo I don't think. It's not that I have a fettish for killing animals but I also don't have a problem with it.

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You DO live in West Virginia ..... anyone else hear banjos?:D

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Watch it Tony....did you just read that I didn't have a problem with killin';););)

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Careful, Tony... I think you just made a "Wrong Turn".[&o]
(I'm sorry.... I just couldn't help it.)

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Looks like I'll be needin' some "Deliverance"! :D

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It comes down to extreams Gandi type and Jeff Darmer type and then you have everyone in between If someone broke in my house with a gun I would not hesatate to shoot them for extream effect would I feel bad no. I know this because of a similur incedent in my life.If I went hunting the next week and shot a buck when I walked over to it there would be mixed emotions.

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I really don't see how difficult it is for some to understand that some of us can absolutely love to hunt (and kill) but not take so much glee in the killing part of it. Yes I know it's part of the way I hunt, and I would not want to hunt any other way or I'd have a camera in my hands instead of a bow/gun. It's just that I don't see where the kill has to be so joyfully exalted for the hunt to be a success or worthy of our pursuit.

RE: The Kill
 

Agreed.

I've never based success on a kill.. if that were true no less than two dozen deer a year would fall to my bow. One or two is perfectly okay with me. Don't need any more arrogance.. I believe I have enough of it already.

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That's aconfusing sentence to me John .... I assume you meant, love to hunt but not take glee in the kill

I don't think anyone is saying it HAS to be .... for most it seems it is .......

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No problem GMMAT. You start a lot of posts about hunting "ethics" and "morals". If you don't care whether I understand you or not, why do you seek the opinion or viewpoint of others? Isn't this about understanding each other?

Thanks PreacherTony. Couldn't have said it better.

No. Nobody needs to kill a deer for food. You voluntarily kill a deer for sport. For sport Bro! Cows and chickens are killed for food, not sport. How can you get those confused?

Pets? I held my old German Shepard in my arms while they stuck the needle in him. I watched the light extinguish in his eyes. I cried like a baby. When a deer drops off, I'm thinking "GET THE GRILL READY BABY!

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The word "successful" as it applies to hunting means only one thing to me. You've succeeded in your objective. If your objective is to hold out for bucks only, 150" or better and you only take one deer on, say, 15 December but it meets that requirement, then you're successful. But what about the days you hunted before that? Were you successful? It's just my opinion here, but each day I hunt and don't take one, I didn't succeed on that particular day. I may have had a great time, and I may still be a "successful" hunter, but on that day, I didn't succeed in accomplishing what I set out to do.

I know the term is relative. A hunt for a specific buck can run weeks, months or even years, but in the end, what defines success in relation to deer hunting?

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WAX DUDE BRO any ?

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Somehow the taking of another warm-blooded mammal (deer) for our sustinenceis for a moment like living and beingthe true image and likeness of God......It is "supremely" DIVINE!!!!

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I figured it would be confusing, you see I originally wanted to just say "some of us can absolutely love to hunt but not take so much glee in the killing part of it." but I wanted everyone to know that I know full well that there is killing involved and I don't have a problem with doing it, so I stuck the (and kill) in the sentance.I just don't get that much satisfaction out of the actual kill.



Yeah, I know. I guess I just can't get into the actual joy of killing as others do. Doesn't make it wrong or right, just not my thing. Don't get me wrong, it's something I have no problem doing, it's just not the "highlight" of the hunt for me.


Oh...you spelled sentence wrong.:) Sorry...couldn't resist.;)

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Killing is part of the hunt. I don't mind it but I don't live to kill either. It is a huge rush to be that close to such a great animal and to know that I fooled it for just long enough to put a clean ethical kill shot on it is what I love!! When I walk up to an animal that I have killed I always take the time to admire and honor the great animal.

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As far as success goes in relation to "The Kill", I can't tell you how many people I have talked to in all my 42 years of life, that have told me they used to hunt, but never got anything.....so they stopped.

How long do you think anyone would keep hunting if they havenever killed anything?? Without the kill, the exclamation point of all our efforts, it loses it's luster .....

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gotcha ....... by the way .... you spelled sentence wrong as well :D two wrongs don't make a right ;)

the joy of killing as it pertains to the hunt .... I just want to make sure that is clear .....

LOL ....see above, Einstein! :D Please don't kill me ......:eek:

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Hey Tony.....

I thought about something this morning...

I used to flyfish a LOT (more than I hunt). To my knowledge....I never killed a trout. The end of a 1/2 day in a stream....in which I caught a few fish....was extremely enjoyable...."successful", even.

All that.....and (again, to my knowledge)....I never killed a fish.

I was also an avid saltwater fisherman when I lived in Charleston, SC....and I killed a bunch of fish! (no problem doing so, either)

The 8 pointer I took last year.....who now is on my wall.....I wish, somehow (in a strange way)....he was still out there. Do I regret killing him? Do I have remorse (now)? No way. But did I take "pleasure" in killing him? No. I just didn't.

I respect yours and others views on the kill aspect. I just don't have a drive to do the actual act. It's "a" part of the hunt I am fine with, internally, though. I don't think we're ever going to understand how the other is wired. I fall in lock step, it seems, with BigJ.

Have a great week.

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Honstly I don't know[&:]