I love the way these things fly.

That being said, I got to say huntmup that your case is convincing...

I took a spud this weekend that I would have bet was a perfect "10" ring shot. Entry was right on the money - he was quartering away. Somehow the arrow altered course and exited further back than the entry. There was massive damage to the one lung that it hit (jellied).

I think that you may be correct however regarding the angle of the blade & the shortness of the point. I think that if they lengthened the tip/point by at least 3/4 of an inch, it would greatly aid in spot-on penetration.

Hate to see a half skinned deer running by with an arrow hanging out of it because the angle of the attack was too steep for the angle on the blade.

Come to think of it - I bet that there is some type of calculation that could be made with regards to proper angle of attack vs. blade sweep angle.

Any mathematicians out there that want to tackle this??


&quot;It's not the kill, it's the adventure and challenge! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>&quot;

After my shot on the buck, I contacted the inventor of these heads and suggested making the angle of the blades less steep, because of the deflection issue. He replied that the main reason for the steep angle was for maximum cutting surface and to keep the overall length of the head short for good flight, which I can understand.

Me again. I sent the link to this thread for oldhootowl to review. He replied back to me and said I could post for him since he hasn't been able to find his password.

&quot;Thanks Eric, somebody else gave me a heads up earlier. I can't find a password or whatever to post right now so I gave the guy a readers digest version to post if he wants, and I emailed 5 shot. Suffice it to say this is the only deflection complaint I have received, and I don't believe there is a problem on a good angled shot. Any head will travel down the ribs if that is the direction of the arrow upon contact, and the deer doesn't have to move much on a quartering shot for that to happen with any head. There are good quartering shots and risky quartering shots with any head, and even on a good quartering shot a deer can easily move enough for it to become an extreme quartering shot with a grazing angle. Fred Bear once shot a doe at close range on camera and while he was aiming for one side he hit the other side. And the eye can not get close to telling if the deer moved just before the arrow hit or after. I believe if people were having a real problem I would have heard about it by now from more than one person. I have only heard of 2 guys losing animals with my heads total, this being one of them. If shops were seeing a problem they would be hollering at me, you can bet on that, but they are praising my heads. I have seen pictures where Muzzies traveled down the ribs but if that is the line of the shot at impact of course that would be where it goes, that isn't &quot;deflection&quot;. Of course now everybody who shot and missed will have a tendency to latch on to the &quot;deflection&quot; excuse. The only arrow guaranteed to kill regardless is a poison arrow. I don't know if I will find the password and post anyway but feel free to also post this if you like.

THANKS GARY&quot;

I wanted to give Gary a heads up on this but with me travelling for work & others clammering for the pictures I couldn't get it all done - I hope he doesn't take offense to what I've written & as I stated - I've never seen a fixed blade hit as accurate as these - but I've also never seen one 'slide' like this either. I haven't taken 100's of deer but what I've done this year is no differnt than what I've done in the past - and this is the first time I've had any 'slide' issues - and it happened on 3 of 4 shots. The 1 it didn't was perfectly broadside (as posted earlier), taken at 43 yards, through the heart - yes they fly darn straight!!!!

I'm glad to see dialogue on the subject - and I'm afraid I don't know what flight characteristics will change by changing the angle of the blades or length of the tip.

These things fly like darts but I just won't use them anymore.



Aim small miss small

Huntmup, The deflection tests I will use are the same as those I did in my early tests with mechanical heads. I used oil soaked 3D targets, thin 1/4&quot; luan board, and this time I will use a fresh deer hide I just happen to have. I can do the test safely as I have around 20 acres to play around on, and no one to get in the way. I will have to agree with Gary, He has sent me heads for testing, and I found the to be excellent heads. I check my records and yours is the first negitive report on the slick tricks. I would feel confident using them myslef, but I will do the tests and compare the results. I will say up front though that I did not find defletction to be a problem with most mechanical heads in my tests, provided the bow was tuned well, and the angle was what one that should be taken on game. I have seen a lot of people take angled shots that were way to steep! I am not saying thats what happend with you, but with tuned equipment and proper shot choices most heads do well.

TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS

It certainly appears that you did get enough deflection to be a problem, and the short length of the heads may be a factor. I have 3 that I didn't use because I couldn't get them sharp enough to satisfy me. FWIW, I don't aim to hit the &quot; X ring&quot; on a quartering away shot, but try to hit farther back and angle the arrow through the center of the vitals. This year's doe was hit in the last few ribs (slicing through 3 of them) and exited in front of the off side leg. This was with a Muzzy. If I had hit this deer in the place where you would get a good score on a 3D target, I would have only gotten one lung. Just my opinion.

Avoid the inevitable until it is absolutely unavoidable!

Joe I'm with you on the X-ring comment - it was intended more 'virtual' than physical (as it relates to a 3d target) The X ring (to me on a deer that is) is where I think the perfect passthru double lung & heart if I can get it shot is - not at all the actual X ring on a 3d target.

If you look at my SD buck pictures from my other post the blood loss looks a lot further back than it does in this post with the hide off - I.E. he wasn't quartering at a steep angle AT ALL.

Also of note (that I forgot to mention) was that when I shot that buck the arrow hit the deer with a huge CRACK - high pitched like slapping hands together - not the 'thwuummpp' like when I stuck the passthru at 43 yards - I thin it whacked a rib immediately & caused the commotion.

Take it for what it's worth guys - I was a big advocate until this & I still say they fly more accurately than anything else I've seen - I just won't hunt with them.



Aim small miss small

Gotta tell you hunt, I'm bummin.

Man I love the way these things fly.

I am impressed however that the owner & developer will take the time to respond on a board like this.

Hope that he can get a longer point developed for these blades so that upon impact the point is anchored & the blades have no choice but to follow.



&quot;It's not the kill, it's the adventure and challenge! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>&quot;

To Huntmup and the rest.
You are no longer the ONLY person who had this problem.
I too had almost the exact same thing happen.
My deer (8 pointer) was quartering away at 31 yards (I guessed 30...not too bad...seeing I was up about 20 feet, my pin was right on). I shot, and watched the arrow hit the deer. My first reaction was elation! It looked to be aperfect shot...but an instant later, I could still see more than 3/4 of the arrow!!! We trailed that deer for 2 days!!! Lots of blood, but he kept going. At first, I though: maybe he turned just as the arrow hit him...dumb luck. Now I'm not so sure.
As for expandibles, I shot my deer last year, it WAS broadside, but on the shot it jumped, and tuned quartering TO! The deer was at a rather sharp angle...more than a perfect quarter. The arrow went in just behind the front shoulder (Hit a touch high) and exited the deer at the very back edge of the far lung. 6 seconds, and 40 yards...it was down.
I think I will be going back to my expandibles (Shockwave...VERY long head when open, and an ENTRANCE wound you could stick 5 finger tips into). I just will NOT go through that blood trailing nightmare again if there is ANYTHING I can do about it.
BTW, They DO fly PERFECTLY. My shot at 31 yards was right on the pin! I SHOULD have an 8 point rack on the wall....not guilt in my gut.

Hello, I don't much post on these, some of them don't want you to unless you pony up some loot. Up to now I only had one guy tell me my heads didn't fly like fieldtips, and now a guy tells me my head &quot;deflects&quot;. Guess what- its the same guy! I found Shanes experience to be the exception to the rule and I hadn't deleted it from earlier. I will share a bit of the email with you. &quot;I put the SlickTricks on & they hit low & right at 4:30 about 2.5 inches. Flat and straight out to 40, but 2.5 off at 20.&quot; By the way, you read that correctly, it is quoted perfectly. As far as the first doe kill, &quot;I think they have better penetration than the Muzzys & they did the job this week. I filled one of my doe tags on Tuesday morning & the head did its job quite well. My shot was just a bit less than perfect but the head only made for a 50 yard chase. I took her 1/4'ing away at a steep angle & should have been just a bit more forward- maybe 3 inches. The head entered just in front of the hind 1/4 (nicked the front edge of the ham) and came out just behind the front shoulder taking rib bone on the way out. Total passthrough & the arrow was buried in the dirt 10 inches too.&quot; He closes with &quot;Have a good one & keep making the good heads!&quot; I will let everybody that email speak for itself, and I have sent it to 5shot so he can verify it. Sometines your imagination just gets the better of you. The last buck pic puzzles me also. Like Joe PA I see a big hole right behind the shoulder, not where the shot should be on a quartering animal. I don't see any sign of any deflection, no marks at all behind the wound. Frankly if I hit there and recovered the deer and saw the damage the head made I would have been a happy camper. And sure enough, like I said earlier through Eric, somebody who made a bad shot and saw this post now claims to have lost the animal because of &quot;deflection&quot;. Oh well, one thing you learn on these sites is that you aren't singled out, every head there is has somebody disappointed somehow somewhere. Thats just how it is, and my 2 cents, Thanks Gary