Encore50

I AM TOTALLY FLABBERGASTED BY THIS!!!

I know the rule of thumb on "OPINIONS" and I am now well aware it definitely applies here. As I stated in a previous post, I am new to muzzleloading. As with anything "NEW" that I have attempted in the past, I first research the subject as much as possible to avoid making over-eager and costly decisions.

When I stumbled onto this site looking for any useful muzzleloading information, I thought I had discovered a gold mine of information. I have been very pleased with the information offered thus far and continue to enjoy the diverse subject matter.

Now in just the few days of reading all the replies to this POST which I initially started, I am becoming very regretful to have ever brought this particular subject to the table. It was never my intention to spawn enemies or offend anyone. From this point foward I will be very reluctent to be involved with any future POST that become a personal matter.

This site has provided me with a lot of information already which I am very appreciative. BUT I refuse to take a role in a personal "Range War". I was caught off guard on a subject which I knew nothing about and then was actually convinced on what I was being told until reading these last couple replies. I will take the advice given to me in an ealier reply; "Don't believe everything you read".

Since there does appear to be issues that remain unsettled regarding this POST subject, my apologies to those I may have caused any anguish or ill feelings. I only hope for a peaceful resolution and that the respect of those individuals involved remain untarnished!

Wolfhound76

No idea why they sent you the forms. They make it pretty clear on their site that firearms are under the jurisdiction of the ATF. Now if you told them it wasn't a firearm they probably would be willing to take your complaint.

As to Larry's refund, if he'd recieved it he wouldn't still be pissed about it.

Pittsburghunter

Pigbuster why was there a dozen of F&G wardens around when that thing blew up? I have never seen that many of the gathered anywhere including ranges I shoot at although I live in a small state.

I looked at the pictures and the only time I have ever seen that type of damage was when there was a bore obstruction or an over pressure. Can you tell me how a breach plug failure causes a barrel to burst? Did the bolt blow off? It makes no sense to me but I do not have any agenda except finding out all the facts here.

That barrel looks identical to a muzzleloader that Skip's gun shop in Bristol NH had hanging on the wall to warn people not to overcharge or use smokeless powders in guns not designed for them. The person who shot that gun was severely injured.

To be honest I don't know you from Adam but I did read some of one of your books on modern muzzleloading at a Borders store and it was well written.

This questions are not ment to be confrontational but informative.

driftrider

So you're saying that you staged the whole even for the benefit of the game wardens? Or did you just call them out after you blew it up to unduely influence their position on smokeless muzzleloading to further your campaign of revenge and blackmail against Savage.

If you are so concerned about the safety of all of us Savage shooters, then this is your chance to address these questions and set the record straight.

Mike

PigBuster

Wolf...

It is simple...maybe too simple for you to understand...muzzleloaders are NOT firearms as defined by the Federal government. REAL firearms come under the jurisdiction of the BATF...and they do not govern muzzleloaders.

Encore50...Don't worry...all of this will pass. These "bad boys" like to travel in packs. They just got tired of building up each other's egoes over on Wolf's message board (Modern Muzzleloading) and had to go out and try stirring things up.

I would personally like to thank them for bringing all of this to everyone's attention on this board. Savage has a serious safety problem...one that the company refuses to address. Because if they address it...they acknowledge it...and the quicker it ends up in court.

There was a time when I thought the Model 10ML II was the end all of muzzleloader development. But when one of the rifles finally let go on me...shooting a load well within the confines of the rifle's manual...I had the opportunity to look down inside of this rifle. And what I saw was far less than what's needed to contain the pressures of smokeless powder loads. And at that point, I began what Savage should have done...and that's to determine why that rifle failed. And I've presented my evidence...and I've waited for Savage's public rebuttal to my assessment of the problem...and ??????

Now, I'm hearing from Model 10ML II owners who have identified gas cuting and erosion to the sealing shoulder of their breech plug...and when they approached Savage Arms' customer service department, these rifle owners have been flat lied to by the company. These rifle owners have been told that the marks are nothing more than machining marks...and pose no problem. That is a bunch of baloney. The marks evident on these breech plugs are the result of severe pressure erosion due to the inability of the breech plug to fully contain the high pressures in the bore.

Still, no one alive has fired the Model 10ML II as much as I have. But I have absolutley no intention of ever shooting another smokeless powder round out of this rifle...not until Savage builds it correctly. With the loads Savage recommends...I now consider the 10ML II the most dangerous muzzleloader on the market.

My recommendation to anyone who owns one of these rifles is to NOT SHOOT this rifle until Savage recalls the muzzleloader and installs a fully threaded breech plug that properly seals at the front, as it should, to contain the high pressures of smokeless powder loads in the bore...not inside the breech plug recess.

This is the last post I'll make on this thread. If you own a 10ML II, just keep in mind the information I just shared each and every time you pull the trigger. And ask yourself, is endangering your safety and possibly your life worth a few f.p.s. more and a little less cleaning?

Toby Bridges

RandyWakeman

Mr Bridges,

Are you now asserting that the following public, well-documented statements made by you in August, 2004, by you were knowingly false? Or, are you pleading that you did not have the requisite technical competence to understand this gun, despite your claim as a "muzzleloading expert," and your claimed extensive study of this gun for the last 6 years?

Can you possibly explain your public, written words?


Randy Wakeman






Re: Should You Buy ML From Bass Pro/Cabela's on: 08/16/2004 at 06:34:31
Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan
Thanks guys,

I appreciate the support. I imagine that I'll most likely catch a little flack today...from somewhere or another over all this. But, it is way past time to set the record straight about the Savage Model 10ML II, and getting two giants in the retailing business to stop spreading false information about the safety of the rifle is paramount.

Thanks again,
Toby

BassPro and Cabela's were also taken to task just a day earlier by Bridges:


Re: Should You Buy ML From Bass Pro/Cabela's on: 08/15/2004 at 17:23:32
Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan


<SNIP>

And maybe the fourth major growth spurt will be with the chain sporting goods stores, like Gander Mountain (with 60 to 65 stores) bringing the latest and the best into locals across the country. Maybe, just maybe, with Gander handling the 10ML II, Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's will pull their heads out of the sand and see where muzzleloading is headed, educate themselves on shooting such a modern in-line rifle, and get back to selling the latest and the best instead of the cheapest and crudest like the CVA Optima Pro. The only thing "optimum" about that rifle is that it is optimum crap. But both Bass Pro and Cabela's push the heck out of them.

Toby

Re: Should You Buy ML From Bass Pro/Cabela's on: 08/15/2004 at 16:04:08
Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan

As I said in the write up...whether these two giant catalogers offer the 10ML II or not won't make or break Savage. <SNIP>

What bothers me, is that the sales people at BPS and Cabela's are "authoritatively" telling folks that the 10ML II rifles are dangerous.

Toby






Savage Muzzleloading Message Board / Re: Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's on: 08/03/2004 at 14:37:34
Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan
<SNIP>

Believe me, the folks at Knight, T/C, CVA, Traditions simply relish the thought that they've been able to control the buyers at BPS and Cabela's well enough that the 10ML II rifle is still not offered by these companies.

They feel that they own this market...and they are not about to let any of it slip away from them. And, like I said, Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's are the two top muzzleloader retailing operations in the country...in the world. Getting the rifle into one or both of those catalogs would let the other companies know that they don't control anything. And millions of muzzleloading shooters who still have no idea that the rifle exists (due to poor promotional efforts) will suddenly know that there is a Model 10ML II smokeless muzzleloader that shoots fast, flat and clean.

On the other hand, as long as the buyers/sales people at BPS and Cabela's talk bad about this superb muzzleloader, the longer the fear factor will be in control.

It's simply time to squash the b.s. that's being spread about the dangers of shooting smokeless in this rifle. It's time to bring smokeless muzzleloading out of the closet and into mainstream muzzleloading America.

<SNIP>

Toby


Savage Muzzleloading Message Board / Re: Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's on: 08/03/2004 at 13:08:41
Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan
<SNIP>

I hear from shooters all the time who complain about the lame excuses they get about why BPS or Cabela's don't handle the 10ML II...or how the "experts" behind the counters at the super stores these two companies now operate are totally ignorant about the fact that such a great muzzleloader exists. But when I talk with folks in management, they claim that they hardly ever get any inquiries about the Savage. Talk about being in the dark.

So...to get back on track slightly...if any of you have ever inquired with anyone at Bass Pro Shops or Cabela's about why they don't offer the Savage muzzleloader...I would love to hear the answer you got or response you got to anything you tried to share with them about the 10ML II.

Toby

Savage Muzzleloading Message Board / Re: Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's on: 08/03/2004 at 08:36:49
Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan
<SNIP>

That was then, and this is now. In fact, that was more than 35,000 smokeless rounds ago. Now I fully know how well the power, efficiency and cleanliness of these powders can be harnessed...in a MUZZLELOADER.

And I fully understand why Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's (today's two major muzzleloading retailers) stuck their heads in the sand to "wait and see" what kind of catastrophies lay ahead. But, there haven't been any. And it is way past due for these companies to pull their heads out of the sand and finally take a look around. Five years of blindness is long enough.

Toby


Savage Muzzleloading Message Board / Re: Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's on: 08/03/2004 at 06:17:27
Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan
<SNIP>

Someone in one of the posts here mentioned how these companies "cater to the big ML makers". And that's exactly the problem here. For the most part, the folks who put together the offering of ML products in these catalogs know just enough about muzzleloading to be dangerous. And when the Model 10ML II was introduced, these big catalogers simply swallowed the "dangerous rhetoric" that Knight...T/C...CVA...and others were feeding them. No one at Bass Pro Shops or Cabela's was technically inclined or experienced enough with muzzleloading to come to such a decision entirely on their own.

The Savage 10ML/ML II rifles have been produced since 2000, and in the five years since I shot the first prototypes for Savage, there have been just over 20,000 produced. And in that time, to my knowledge, no one has been injured due to a gun failing. And neither has there been a sharp rise in the number of one-handed muzzleloading shooters/hunters who were tempted to load smokeless powders into "other" in-line frontloaders - as the other companies all swore would happen.

Hopefully, there are some decision makers at Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's with the intelligence to now realize what a crock of B.S. the other muzzleloader companies have been feeding them.

Please keep posting your input on this thread...if you guys don't tell them, they sure as heck won't ever know.

Toby

Savage Muzzleloading Message Board / Re: Why would anyone want to buy the Savage ML? on: 07/22/2004 at 11:31:04
Started by rdtimmjr | Post by Savagefan
Why would anyone want to buy the Savage ML?

I guess some folks just want to own the best!

When I first showed up in one deer camp where I've been hunting for most of 20 years, the other 7 hunters in that camp were all shooting Knight's or T/C's. They kind of looked down their noses at the Savage.

But, that quickly changed...

During every mid-day break, I'd challenge the others to do some shooting. Of course, none of them wanted to shoot "their" rifles, because they didn't want to be faced with a cleaning job. So...I would pull out an extra 10ML II...and we would shoot "both" of my rifles 20 or 30 times before it was time to head back to the deer woods.

Today, the entire group owns, shoots and hunts with a Savage muzzleloader.

Why, because they can shoot them when they want without worrying about the follow up cleaning. And if the rifle didn't shoot any faster...any flatter...or any harder, the extremely low maintenance of this rifle (compared to ANY other in-line loaded with a black powder sub) would still make it a far superior design.

Just my 2-cents worth.

Toby

bigcountry

You might have experience, but don't kid yourself, you lost all creditability. If they do have a potential flaw, you ruined any chance of helping people with your bull, I have seen posted everwhere. I watched your stupid replys back and forth on many other pages with the Balls and others. You were a whore for money and pushed items on people for it. And now you expect people to believe you!! Cause now your serious. Yea, right. You could have left the money part out of it. And kept your credibility. And kept testing for Knight, TC or White.

I have seen where you posted yourself, that you knew about this problem, but delayed posting it for months on months. If you really cared, and was a man of respect and integrity, you would have posted all that info without the money, and without deals.

Pittsburghunter

I guess I will take that as a no-comment.

I would still like to know how a breech plug causes a barrel to blow up 6-8" down the bore. Guess I will never know.

BTW I do not own and do not intend to own any smokeless muzzleloaders. I bought one of the first available inlines (Scout Carbine) and bought an Encore the first full season they were available. That is about as far as I will take m/l speed I have plenty of fun centerfire rifle to fill the bill. I do consider this a Savage slam though and your website content seems to prove it.

This dosn't take away from your other experiences and I'm glad you are out there although I do not believe your story on the Savage arms.

RandyWakeman

Hello Toby,

Being "right" is unimportant, a listing of my personal faults would fill several pages. Of course learning is what it is all about.

That said, it is difficult to draw a distinction between Howard Hughes, the Space Shuttle, and the 10ML-II. The 10ML-II has flown far more often, and does not leave the ground as quickly.

It is self-evident, at least to me, that there never was any claim that the 10ML-II breechplug's front portion was designed to be a "perfect seal." If it was, there would be scant reason to lubricate the breechplug at all.

It is difficult to understand how erosion could be construed as a safety issue-- just what specific wall thickness do you think is required for a 100% safety factor?

It is also difficult to understand how, through your claimed 36,000 shots fired-- an "obvious" erosion would go un-noticed by you. With your claim of "all breechplugs eroding" by 500 shots or less, well-- you must have gone through at least 72 of them, and have all these eroded breechplugs on hand by now. Do you?

Are all revolvers made today time-bombs due to the cylinder air gap? What attempted seal is there?

I have three reasonably high-mileage factory breechplugs here. One has 14 pounds of 5744 fired through it, some 2100 shots, with additional Alliant 2400, RL-7, N110, N120, and AA 2015 loads shot through it. It appears as new. The two other plugs have well over 750 rounds through them, but you cannot tell one from the other. I'll happily send along as many pictures as you would like to view of them together. Perhaps the atmosphere in northern Illinois does not allow erosion?

750 shots is more than the average muzzleloader shoots in a lifetime in a single gun, much less 2100 shots. Both Thompson and Knight currently have breechplugs with unthreaded portions to protect the threads. 120 grain loose Triple 7 loads can produce as much pressure as the middling 10ML-II loads. Have you warned Knight and Thompson about the lack of a "seal" at the front of their breechplugs? Not even a partial seal exists.

Why, O why, would "shooters" send an ex-Savage consultant breechplugs? Do you not think that Savage examines and screws on more barrels in a month than anyone else on the planet?

As far as your statement, "there have been many, many very qualified folks come forth who totally agree with my assesment of the problem."-- do any of these people have names?

Accurate Arms 5744 burns progressively, and cannot detonate-- what gas velocity do designate as "detonate?"

The CPSC has no authority over firearms. To say that they approached you leaves you open for tremendous embarrassment. Do these public servants of the CPSC have names, either?[:-]

To admonish all-comers dull enough to not understand the integrity of the 10ML-II in August, 2004, then to immediately do a 180 turn in a few days seems quite a quick revelation.

Is it all completely coincidental, or is your dismissal by Savage Arms and Henry Ball at the exact same time remotely related to this?

As for the theory of 5744, detonation, and the 3 hole vent-liner-- you are well aware that I was shooting the same stuff at the same time. The first 3-hole vent-liner I shot was mailed to me by you. Should I consider this reckless endangerment by your hand?

Please find me ANY reputable entity, and one at all, that can refute the following:

The Savage breech plug design is stronger than alternatives of threading to the front due to the following considerations: Threading to the front would reduce the cross sectional wall (root to root diameter of inner and outer threads) and place stress risers at the area of greatest strain. The area of elongation under stress would be very short compared to the length of the non threaded portion that absorbs the stress repeatedly over its length without exceeding the yield strength of the steel.

I have not been able to.

As a Savage 10ML-II dealer, are you accusing me personally with endangering lives? My own? My father's?

Looking forward to your reply,

Randy

PigBuster

One last comment...

Anyone having any questions...e-mail me.

I see the boss "RW" is taking over where his cronies failed...

Toby