Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
04-11-2005, 11:19 PM
#11
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,052
RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
50 it werent no butt chewin and you shouldnt feel embarrassed. You just fell for EXACTLY the kind of boosheut that Toby is hoping alot of others will fall for and dismiss the Savage ML10 as a fluke or "rocket science". I'm just glad you could see the real "TRUTH" and now know to take everything you hear/read or know about Toby and throw it in the garbage pile.
If you get a ML10 you WONT be sorry. Welcome aboard and you will quickly grow to LOVE the rifle. They are everything you hear (good that is, lol) and more. We have sold them like hotcakes for two seasons now and the enthusiasm for them is spreading like wildfire. A solid 90% of them are sold to folks who witnessed their buddies use them on the range or in the woods. Its not a matter of, "What do you think about them, or I am considering buying one". Most of the customers come in and say, "I WANT ONE!" Their minds are made up with only a shot or twos experience. The guns are that good. And too the man, they love them more with each trigger pull.
The only thing I don't understand about the naysayers are the ones who think its perfectly fine to shoot a T/C with 150grn charges atop magnum sabots with quality bullets. Yet somehow think those guns are anyless of a sporting weapon than the Savage. I just don't understand it. BOTH guns are capable of 300yd kills on deer with proper loads and a little time on the range. The allure of the Savage anyway is that you don't have a rusting, stinking mess to deal with afterwards. It doesn't appear as lazy too me as much as it appears SMART!
Afterall the metallic cartridge was concieved as a much cleaner and safer alternative too the then typical smokepole. Does that make centerfires only for lazies likewise?
They simply are AWESOME weapons that are very affordable!
RA
If you get a ML10 you WONT be sorry. Welcome aboard and you will quickly grow to LOVE the rifle. They are everything you hear (good that is, lol) and more. We have sold them like hotcakes for two seasons now and the enthusiasm for them is spreading like wildfire. A solid 90% of them are sold to folks who witnessed their buddies use them on the range or in the woods. Its not a matter of, "What do you think about them, or I am considering buying one". Most of the customers come in and say, "I WANT ONE!" Their minds are made up with only a shot or twos experience. The guns are that good. And too the man, they love them more with each trigger pull.
The only thing I don't understand about the naysayers are the ones who think its perfectly fine to shoot a T/C with 150grn charges atop magnum sabots with quality bullets. Yet somehow think those guns are anyless of a sporting weapon than the Savage. I just don't understand it. BOTH guns are capable of 300yd kills on deer with proper loads and a little time on the range. The allure of the Savage anyway is that you don't have a rusting, stinking mess to deal with afterwards. It doesn't appear as lazy too me as much as it appears SMART!
Afterall the metallic cartridge was concieved as a much cleaner and safer alternative too the then typical smokepole. Does that make centerfires only for lazies likewise?They simply are AWESOME weapons that are very affordable!
RA
04-12-2005, 05:37 AM
#12
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 714
RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
ORIGINAL: Encore50
Wolfhound76,
Please forgive me, but I do not know anything about 'Toby Bridges' other than what he presented in these two articles. Obviously you know more about this person than you care to mention. I merely read the articles and was fascinated by his test results.
Are you saying this is not true? If so, could you possibly shed more light on the subject. This could be very confusing to those of us who appreciate a person that will take a stand and expose hidden dangers to the general public.
I try to read all I can about things that I feel important to me. This happened to be one of those things. Now I am confused as to what this is all about! I definitely don't care to dig up old bones, just want the real truth of it all!
You'll forgive me if I take those claims with a ton of salt. If it came from anyone but Toby Bridges I would give it far more weight.
Please forgive me, but I do not know anything about 'Toby Bridges' other than what he presented in these two articles. Obviously you know more about this person than you care to mention. I merely read the articles and was fascinated by his test results.
Are you saying this is not true? If so, could you possibly shed more light on the subject. This could be very confusing to those of us who appreciate a person that will take a stand and expose hidden dangers to the general public.
I try to read all I can about things that I feel important to me. This happened to be one of those things. Now I am confused as to what this is all about! I definitely don't care to dig up old bones, just want the real truth of it all!
Also an online buddy of mine named Larry ordered a signed copy of Toby's recent book (not sure if it was ever published) and canceled his order after Toby's "revelation". That was back in September and Toby has yet to send him his 28 bucks or so. He recieved promises that he would recieve his refund and yet never has.
04-12-2005, 08:05 AM
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
WOW.....I guess that put the last nail in the "Toby Bridges" coffin for me! I don't know if I should feel embarrassed or feel like I just received a good ol' butt chewing. Regardless I appreciate the clarification on that subject.
Sorry if I struck a nerve. And yes I am new to all of this. We all have to start sometime. Took me 54 years to get my first ML so I will be on the learning path for a while. Thanks for the info and forgive my stupidity
Sorry if I struck a nerve. And yes I am new to all of this. We all have to start sometime. Took me 54 years to get my first ML so I will be on the learning path for a while. Thanks for the info and forgive my stupidity
And if this is true, and he know about a problem and didn't inform his close followers cause he was wanting money, thats even worse.
04-12-2005, 03:05 PM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,922
RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
Toby knows double the muzzleloading over Randy Wakeman... especially dealing with non-inlines... an area that Randy smartly ignores/fails to respond to.
Nobody but the Balls, Savage Inc & Toby know what truly happened in their dispute. Toby's words in his letters/emails/phone calls can be twisted - turned upside-down & inside out by anyone who reads the findings. It's all speculation on our part until the lawsuit is finally settled.
Sometimes under contract to rifle manufacturers and/or aftermarket suppliers, these outfits will mandate that no public discussion or exposure to problems with the product can be made public until all testing has been accomplished & forwarded.... ESPECIALLY in an isolated ruptured barrel case like the one Toby was involved with.
Nobody in their right mind would tell the world that their employer's barrel, action or breechplug was JUNK until it was proven to be junk. Some techs need six months for research... some longer - some shorter intervals. I won't condemn a ML tech for life based on circumstantial evidence ON A SINGLE ISOLATED INCIDENT.
One thing I forgot to mention. Toby also knows the Savage ML double-that of Randy. I think there are four or five regular posters here that know inlines & sidelocks almost as much as the video & novel providers. Just because these 4-5 regular posters here have emptier wallets & cannot produce videos or novels - does not lessen their knowledge.
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Do not stop posting here Toby! Some of us want to continue to learn - continue to ask you questions - continue to see you here providing us with your latest findings. That invitation also applies to Randy Wakeman. Hope both of you continue to click-on and take part in discussions here. All opinions & advice are welcome here
I'm done on this thread... offered my two cents... will not respond to any replies here... just personal PMs.
Nobody but the Balls, Savage Inc & Toby know what truly happened in their dispute. Toby's words in his letters/emails/phone calls can be twisted - turned upside-down & inside out by anyone who reads the findings. It's all speculation on our part until the lawsuit is finally settled.
Sometimes under contract to rifle manufacturers and/or aftermarket suppliers, these outfits will mandate that no public discussion or exposure to problems with the product can be made public until all testing has been accomplished & forwarded.... ESPECIALLY in an isolated ruptured barrel case like the one Toby was involved with.
Nobody in their right mind would tell the world that their employer's barrel, action or breechplug was JUNK until it was proven to be junk. Some techs need six months for research... some longer - some shorter intervals. I won't condemn a ML tech for life based on circumstantial evidence ON A SINGLE ISOLATED INCIDENT.
One thing I forgot to mention. Toby also knows the Savage ML double-that of Randy. I think there are four or five regular posters here that know inlines & sidelocks almost as much as the video & novel providers. Just because these 4-5 regular posters here have emptier wallets & cannot produce videos or novels - does not lessen their knowledge.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not stop posting here Toby! Some of us want to continue to learn - continue to ask you questions - continue to see you here providing us with your latest findings. That invitation also applies to Randy Wakeman. Hope both of you continue to click-on and take part in discussions here. All opinions & advice are welcome here
I'm done on this thread... offered my two cents... will not respond to any replies here... just personal PMs.
04-12-2005, 04:19 PM
#15
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 17
RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
Triple Seven,
Don't worry, I won't stop posting here.
If those ostriches want to stick their heads in the sand and ignore the evidence that has clearly been presented, that's their choice.
If Savage is so darn innocent in all of this...why doesn't someone post something in regard to the company's public opposition to what I've been saying since last August. Better yet, why doesn't Savage take legal action against me to shut me up? I'll tell you why...that would mean all of this would have to go to court...and believe me, Savage Arms does not want that. Why? Because they are quilty as charged...and that would come out in court.
Why don't all of those with an opinion just hold onto that opinion. This whole thing has been turned over to the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Let's see what they have to say about all of this.
Toby
Don't worry, I won't stop posting here.
If those ostriches want to stick their heads in the sand and ignore the evidence that has clearly been presented, that's their choice.
If Savage is so darn innocent in all of this...why doesn't someone post something in regard to the company's public opposition to what I've been saying since last August. Better yet, why doesn't Savage take legal action against me to shut me up? I'll tell you why...that would mean all of this would have to go to court...and believe me, Savage Arms does not want that. Why? Because they are quilty as charged...and that would come out in court.
Why don't all of those with an opinion just hold onto that opinion. This whole thing has been turned over to the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Let's see what they have to say about all of this.
Toby
04-12-2005, 05:43 PM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Coralville, IA. USA
Posts: 3,802
RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
If you're so right about all of this, what do you have to say about the fact that you got fired by both Henry Ball and Savage right before your gun mysteriously blew up?
What do you have to say about the blackmail letter that you wrote to Henry Ball demanding money for your silence?
What do you have to say for your previously admitted use of powders and loads that far exceed those loads tested safe by Savage Arms?
What do you have to say about your admitted and repeated unauthorized testing of unpredictable duplex and triplex loads against the express wishes of Savage Arms, without any pressure testing equipment?
How did you manage to blow that gun up so thouroughly without suffering serious injury to yourself (lanyard line maybe?)?
How do you justify your current assertion that a 10ML-II is somehow unsafe after just 500 shots, when the 10ML-II you managed to blow up had thousands of shots through it, often with loads that you admitted were well beyond those sanctioned for use by Savage?
Why, if 10ML's are so patently unsafe, is your case the only documented case with a supposedly safe recommended load (and we are left to take your not so trustworthy word that it really was a recommended load at all, but based on your predilection for using loads well beyond Savages published MAX loads, it's difficult to believe that you actually stepped down the load at just the moment that your gun blew up)?
If Savage is so quilty of all the things you claim they are guilty of, why aren't you suing them for breach of contract or for endangering your life with a product you claim they know to be unsafe?
What are your engineering credentials that qualify you to conclude that the design is unsafe, when your extensive testing beyond the Savage intended load limits with a meer one failure in 30K+ rounds seems to indicate otherwise. Try loading up any CF cartridge 4-6 grains beyond the max loads and see how many shots it takes before you blow something up. If the blow-up was not premeditated and intentional, the fact that your guns survived as long as it did is a testament to the strenght of the design.
Maybe the reason Savage hasn't sued you is because they know that you just aren't worth the money and effort it'd take to squash you like the bug you are. No sense in wasting legal fees to prove you a liar and blackmailer when you've already done a good enough job of that on your own. I think that your inflated ego as an "expert" makes you think that you are a bigger threat to Savage than you really are, and just can't accept the fact that they not only canned you and left you high and dry, but that they continue to blow you off despite your best efforts to make them look bad. You've submitted your claim to the CPSC, huh. Well, we'll see how that turns out, but somehow I think that the engineers at Savage and the expert gunsmithing knowledge and experience of Henry Ball trump your "expertise" on the subject of design. Like I said, we'll see. Let us know how that turns out. I have a feeling that even a ruling that's not in your favor won't silence your quest for revenge in this case. Sour grapes make a bitter wine.
Mike
What do you have to say about the blackmail letter that you wrote to Henry Ball demanding money for your silence?
What do you have to say for your previously admitted use of powders and loads that far exceed those loads tested safe by Savage Arms?
What do you have to say about your admitted and repeated unauthorized testing of unpredictable duplex and triplex loads against the express wishes of Savage Arms, without any pressure testing equipment?
How did you manage to blow that gun up so thouroughly without suffering serious injury to yourself (lanyard line maybe?)?
How do you justify your current assertion that a 10ML-II is somehow unsafe after just 500 shots, when the 10ML-II you managed to blow up had thousands of shots through it, often with loads that you admitted were well beyond those sanctioned for use by Savage?
Why, if 10ML's are so patently unsafe, is your case the only documented case with a supposedly safe recommended load (and we are left to take your not so trustworthy word that it really was a recommended load at all, but based on your predilection for using loads well beyond Savages published MAX loads, it's difficult to believe that you actually stepped down the load at just the moment that your gun blew up)?
If Savage is so quilty of all the things you claim they are guilty of, why aren't you suing them for breach of contract or for endangering your life with a product you claim they know to be unsafe?
What are your engineering credentials that qualify you to conclude that the design is unsafe, when your extensive testing beyond the Savage intended load limits with a meer one failure in 30K+ rounds seems to indicate otherwise. Try loading up any CF cartridge 4-6 grains beyond the max loads and see how many shots it takes before you blow something up. If the blow-up was not premeditated and intentional, the fact that your guns survived as long as it did is a testament to the strenght of the design.
Maybe the reason Savage hasn't sued you is because they know that you just aren't worth the money and effort it'd take to squash you like the bug you are. No sense in wasting legal fees to prove you a liar and blackmailer when you've already done a good enough job of that on your own. I think that your inflated ego as an "expert" makes you think that you are a bigger threat to Savage than you really are, and just can't accept the fact that they not only canned you and left you high and dry, but that they continue to blow you off despite your best efforts to make them look bad. You've submitted your claim to the CPSC, huh. Well, we'll see how that turns out, but somehow I think that the engineers at Savage and the expert gunsmithing knowledge and experience of Henry Ball trump your "expertise" on the subject of design. Like I said, we'll see. Let us know how that turns out. I have a feeling that even a ruling that's not in your favor won't silence your quest for revenge in this case. Sour grapes make a bitter wine.
Mike
04-12-2005, 05:50 PM
#17
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 714
RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
Nice try Toby but the CPSC does not have jurisdiction over firearms. A muzzleloader is still a firearm just not a 4473 firearm.
By the way, when did you plan on paying Larry? Larry posted this and gave me permision to repost hoping he might get his money back.
Jurisdiction
Q. Does CPSC have jurisdiction over all consumer products?
A. No. We have jurisdiction over more than 15,000 kinds of consumer products used in and around the home, in sports, recreation and schools. But we don't have jurisdiction over some categories of products. They include automobiles and other on-road vehicles, tires, boats, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, food, drugs, cosmetics, pesticides, and medical devices. Our web site has links to the sites of the federal agencies that do.
Q. Does CPSC have jurisdiction over all consumer products?
A. No. We have jurisdiction over more than 15,000 kinds of consumer products used in and around the home, in sports, recreation and schools. But we don't have jurisdiction over some categories of products. They include automobiles and other on-road vehicles, tires, boats, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, food, drugs, cosmetics, pesticides, and medical devices. Our web site has links to the sites of the federal agencies that do.
By the way, when did you plan on paying Larry? Larry posted this and gave me permision to repost hoping he might get his money back.
TB is a total discredit and embarrassment to our beloved ML Sport and others should be duly put on notice publically just as he publically solicited money for his Book from myself. Here's copies of emails supporting my unfortunate experience with him. His Book Deal was advertised publically so my experience & others with TB should also be publically displayed now and as many times as i or others appropriately see fit to keep forewarning all other good folks so they dont get screwed just as I did.
Its only 28 bucks but would hate to see any other honest folks get sucked into any other TB Deals or follow any TB false reporting.
My most recent email sent 3/26/05 and READ by TB same date with NO REPLY offered:
"Toby,
I know you went through a move etc. I still have not received my book refund from you. Hopefully, you can send my refund as soon as possible. This may have been an overlooked by you due to your move and getting settled in.
My Address is still the same:
Larry Smeltzer
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Copy of my last email received from you on 10/20/2004 and your REPLY:
There is no problem...you'll just have to wait a
little longer...until I complete my move. About
October 25th...and a check will be on its way.
Toby Bridges
--- Larry Smeltzer <[email protected]> wrote:
> Toby,
>
> Still waiting on my refund. Thought there was no
> problem ??
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Toby Bridges"
> <[email protected]>
> To: "Larry Smeltzer" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 8:57 AM
> Subject: Re: Book
>
>
> > No problem...refund will be on its way within 30
> days.
> >
> > Toby
> >
> > --- Larry Smeltzer <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Toby,
> > >
> > > Per my read on your site the smokeless info and
> pics
> > > have been removed from your book. The book is
> not
> > > as advertised when I placed my order and sent
> you my
> > > $28.45 back on 6/4 in full payment of book as
> > > advertised.
> > >
> > > I respectfully request a refund.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Larry Smeltzer
> > > xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
Its only 28 bucks but would hate to see any other honest folks get sucked into any other TB Deals or follow any TB false reporting.
My most recent email sent 3/26/05 and READ by TB same date with NO REPLY offered:
"Toby,
I know you went through a move etc. I still have not received my book refund from you. Hopefully, you can send my refund as soon as possible. This may have been an overlooked by you due to your move and getting settled in.
My Address is still the same:
Larry Smeltzer
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Copy of my last email received from you on 10/20/2004 and your REPLY:
There is no problem...you'll just have to wait a
little longer...until I complete my move. About
October 25th...and a check will be on its way.
Toby Bridges
--- Larry Smeltzer <[email protected]> wrote:
> Toby,
>
> Still waiting on my refund. Thought there was no
> problem ??
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Toby Bridges"
> <[email protected]>
> To: "Larry Smeltzer" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 8:57 AM
> Subject: Re: Book
>
>
> > No problem...refund will be on its way within 30
> days.
> >
> > Toby
> >
> > --- Larry Smeltzer <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Toby,
> > >
> > > Per my read on your site the smokeless info and
> pics
> > > have been removed from your book. The book is
> not
> > > as advertised when I placed my order and sent
> you my
> > > $28.45 back on 6/4 in full payment of book as
> > > advertised.
> > >
> > > I respectfully request a refund.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Larry Smeltzer
> > > xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
04-12-2005, 07:01 PM
#20
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 17
RE: Savage 10ML-II may have a big problem!!!
For driftrider...
Hey, I had about a dozen game wardens on hand to witness the rifle failure...but then you probably wouldn't believe them either.
That's your problem...not mine.
As for the "unauthorized" loads...the load that blew that rifle was well within the poorly established guidelines in the Savage manual, which was thoroughly screwed up by Savage engineers. As for the "authorized" Savage loads...who the heck do you think established that data in the first place? Savage? If you do, you had better think again.
Toby
Hey, I had about a dozen game wardens on hand to witness the rifle failure...but then you probably wouldn't believe them either.
That's your problem...not mine.
As for the "unauthorized" loads...the load that blew that rifle was well within the poorly established guidelines in the Savage manual, which was thoroughly screwed up by Savage engineers. As for the "authorized" Savage loads...who the heck do you think established that data in the first place? Savage? If you do, you had better think again.
Toby