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Old 03-21-2017, 08:55 AM
  #21  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Originally Posted by Gm54-120 View Post
Its a local (state) event and as far as i know its not a NMLRA event. I dont see any reference to the NMLRA at all actually on their website. http://www.michrpa.org/
Crazy!!! Im not sure why BarnesAddict didnt title the thread new ML shoot, or a name something to relate to what hes talking about. Not sure why things are deleted and nothing really references what hes talking about. I just assumed its the NMLRA. Perfect reason why you should never assume. I really thought the NMLRA was changing more rules. But obviously not the case. GM54 cleared this all up for me in his last few posts.

If this is a new ML shoot, i think the rules are fine. If you dont like the rules dont shoot in it. Pretty simple in my eyes. Like i said before, i thought this was the NMLRA changing more rules like before.

I think rule number 1 said all production ML'S aloud. That rule needs to be a little more specific in my eyes. I dont consider Cooper, NULA, Ultimate, Knight 500 production ML'S. To me all of those are basicaly custom rifles and should not be included in the shoot under production rifles. A custom rifle division is were they belong. I also think Friendship should be the same way. Here again, just my opinion.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:46 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Grouse45 View Post
..............If this is a new ML shoot, i think the rules are fine. If you dont like the rules dont shoot in it. Pretty simple in my eyes. Like i said before, i thought this was the NMLRA changing more rules like before.

I think rule number 1 said all production ML'S aloud. That rule needs to be a little more specific in my eyes. I dont consider Cooper, NULA, Ultimate, Knight 500 production ML'S. To me all of those are basicaly custom rifles and should not be included in the shoot under production rifles. A custom rifle division is were they belong. I also think Friendship should be the same way. Here again, just my opinion.
Grouse, I'd like you to know that a separate organization started and created the shoot. It has nothing to do with the NMLRA.

I'd also like you know, and you can easily verify, I had NOTHING in any way or part in creating it or it's rules. Also, UF Inc. had NOTHING, in any way or part creating it, or it's rules, nor does it sponsor it. I'm not really sure if UF Inc. even knows this shoot exists.

Someone shot the messenger, again. All I can say is that it is pathetic when an organization wants to start something for the very first time, and others have to tear it apart. THAT, is the main reason more people aren't willing to learn.

I'm pretty sure of this though, people on the internet and their feelings about what is, or is not a custom built muzzleloader, DO NOT run the shoot, nor do they involve themselves in any shoots. They DO NOT get to decide an organizations rules, no matter how much they whine and cry about it. It would be like someone inviting you to dinner, then you tear them apart for serving pork instead of chicken. Its their house, their rules. You can have chicken when they come to YOUR house.

There is always some kind of conflict in any shooting sport. However those who have a passion for shooting and learning, abide by the rules of others or, they make a case for themselves for a change. If they can't get changed what they'd like to change, they still shoot anyway.

What EVERYONE should be doing is to support ANY person, place, or thing that wants to gather shooters together. Nothing starts out perfect for anyone starting something new, and things always end up changing for future events. Its something learned. No reason to tear something apart just because it doesn't fit someone's criteria.

Here's something I think we should all be able to agree on, and that's that some Organization, rather it be the NMLRA or the NRA, needs to come up with a defined definition of what is a Custom rifle and what is a Production rifle. It'll be argued over the internet like liberals on FB, Twitter, or any of the other social media sites, including sporting forums. Its going to take an organization like the NMLRA or NRA to make new rules concerning modern inline rifles.

My take and only my opinion..........

Please leave marketing out.......

Custom rifles IMO are rifles that are built to the purchaser/owner's individual specifications. The can include any number of different actions, different barrel manufacturers, barrel lengths, numerous stock configurations and trigger types. If a person removes a .50cal barrel from an action and installs a .45cal barrel, its customized. They are basically a "one of a kind" type build. Manufacturers of these rifles may or may not have a manufacturers FFL.

As far as production rifles, I think there's actually two different kinds.

First IMO, mass produced rifles. Mass produced rifles include but are not limited to, CVA, T/C, Traditions, Knight etc. Yes they have different models, but they are still mass produced. The manufacturers of these rifles HAVE a manufacturing FFL.

Second, there are limited production rifles. Limited production rifles are rifles that are built on a single action, use a single barrel manufacturer, have a set barrel length, a standard trigger and limited stock choice (per model). These manufacturers also have a manufacturing FFL. Examples of these rifles could be NULA, Ultimate, Knight 500 and Cooper, etc.

Now please understand... I'm not saying anything I posted concerning custom or production rifles is right or wrong. Its only my opinion. Again, some organization needs to make the rules, then everyone can understand the rules and abides by them.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:57 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by BarnesAddict View Post
Grouse, I'd like you to know that a separate organization started and created the shoot. It has nothing to do with the NMLRA.

I'd also like you know, and you can easily verify, I had NOTHING in any way or part in creating it or it's rules. Also, UF Inc. had NOTHING, in any way or part creating it, or it's rules, nor does it sponsor it. I'm not really sure if UF Inc. even knows this shoot exists.

Someone shot the messenger, again. All I can say is that it is pathetic when an organization wants to start something for the very first time, and others have to tear it apart. THAT, is the main reason more people aren't willing to learn.

I'm pretty sure of this though, people on the internet and their feelings about what is, or is not a custom built muzzleloader, DO NOT run the shoot, nor do they involve themselves in any shoots. They DO NOT get to decide an organizations rules, no matter how much they whine and cry about it. It would be like someone inviting you to dinner, then you tear them apart for serving pork instead of chicken. Its their house, their rules. You can have chicken when they come to YOUR house.

There is always some kind of conflict in any shooting sport. However those who have a passion for shooting and learning, abide by the rules of others or, they make a case for themselves for a change. If they can't get changed what they'd like to change, they still shoot anyway.

What EVERYONE should be doing is to support ANY person, place, or thing that wants to gather shooters together. Nothing starts out perfect for anyone starting something new, and things always end up changing for future events. Its something learned. No reason to tear something apart just because it doesn't fit someone's criteria.

Here's something I think we should all be able to agree on, and that's that some Organization, rather it be the NMLRA or the NRA, needs to come up with a defined definition of what is a Custom rifle and what is a Production rifle. It'll be argued over the internet like liberals on FB, Twitter, or any of the other social media sites, including sporting forums. Its going to take an organization like the NMLRA or NRA to make new rules concerning modern inline rifles.

My take and only my opinion..........

Please leave marketing out.......

Custom rifles IMO are rifles that are built to the purchaser/owner's individual specifications. The can include any number of different actions, different barrel manufacturers, barrel lengths, numerous stock configurations and trigger types. If a person removes a .50cal barrel from an action and installs a .45cal barrel, its customized. They are basically a "one of a kind" type build. Manufacturers of these rifles may or may not have a manufacturers FFL.

As far as production rifles, I think there's actually two different kinds.

First IMO, mass produced rifles. Mass produced rifles include but are not limited to, CVA, T/C, Traditions, Knight etc. Yes they have different models, but they are still mass produced. The manufacturers of these rifles HAVE a manufacturing FFL.

Second, there are limited production rifles. Limited production rifles are rifles that are built on a single action, use a single barrel manufacturer, have a set barrel length, a standard trigger and limited stock choice (per model). These manufacturers also have a manufacturing FFL. Examples of these rifles could be NULA, Ultimate, Knight 500 and Cooper, etc.

Now please understand... I'm not saying anything I posted concerning custom or production rifles is right or wrong. Its only my opinion. Again, some organization needs to make the rules, then everyone can understand the rules and abides by them.
Like i said the rules need tweaked in my opinion. I had Bestil take a Knight barrel off a Knight Elite and add a brux barrel. To me thats not a production ML now.

As far as a group of guys getting together and having a contest/shoot is awesome. But threads like this dont help at all. Im not sure who deleted what, but actually it should of all been deleted. Theres no reference at all were the shoot is or whos running it. None of that was clear until GM54 started posting information after i asked for some. And theres a big difference between a bunch of guys getting together and having fun and shooting, versus a competition in which you take seriously yourself.
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:07 PM
  #24  
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Debating over what is custom is subjective at best. IMO it would be much simpler to either go by the rules or don't participate. If your not a competetive shooter what's it too you? Just my .02 cents.
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:04 PM
  #25  
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I can't believe so many long paragraphs were written addressing this "issue". You guys must either be bored or have an overactive confrontation gene.
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:13 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Slowburn View Post
Debating over what is custom is subjective at best. IMO it would be much simpler to either go by the rules or don't participate. If your not a competetive shooter what's it too you? Just my .02 cents.
Not subjective at all.

Look at it like this. Hankins takes a Rem 700 action and adds a Brux barrel, your choice of stock, beds it and a HIS LRMP ignition system.

Certainly that is a custom build.

UF does the exact same thing with a different brand of barrel and a little different LRMP ignition system.

Both rifles are made when you order them. Just like a NULA or even a Knight 500.

If this is a custom


So is this.

Last edited by Gm54-120; 03-21-2017 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:16 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Semisane View Post
I can't believe so many long paragraphs were written addressing this "issue". You guys must either be bored or have an overactive confrontation gene.
I was thinking the exact same thing but was biting my tongue. Seemed to me like someone wanted to open up a can of worms just to see what came out of it.
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:12 PM
  #28  
Nontypical Buck
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Originally Posted by Gm54-120 View Post
Not subjective at all.

Look at it like this. Hankins takes a Rem 700 action and adds a Brux barrel, your choice of stock, beds it and a HIS LRMP ignition system.
Certainly that is a custom build.
UF does the exact same thing with a different brand of barrel and a little different LRMP ignition system.
Both rifles are made when you order them. Just like a NULA or even a Knight 500.
Well you're not providing all the information. A Hankins' rifle can be ordered with any number of barrels from different manufacturers, not just Brux.

With the UF, you get one choice of barrel from one manufacturer, rather you want it coated (BW) or not, its from one manufacturer and only one, all the same barrels setting in a shipping container. You DO NOT get a bedded rifle from UF, regardless rather it is one of either of the TWO models now offered. If any part malfunctions or breaks on a UF rifle, it can be repaired/replaced the same day, including the breech plug, without prolonged fitting and the barrel. All parts are readily available and nothing must be ordered.

Hankins may, I don't know, have an inventory of parts on hand, to which if someone rings a barrel, he can screw a new barrel on it, screw a breech plug into it and send you out the door?
Each and every rifle Hankins builds is different than others he produces. He also installs the (any) trigger of the purchaser's choice, along with many other options. Hankins build TO THE PURCHASER'S REQUEST (to a limit). Each rifle is a "one of a kind".

With UF if you order a BP Xpress, that rifle, short of two different stocks if still available, is identical to the rifles he built 3 years ago, or the rifles he builds in the future. If you purchase a BP Xpress today, it'll be exact to the one I have owned for three years, unless the stock is ordered.
UF builds the same rifle for anyone who orders. Yes he builds them once they are ordered. He's a 78 year young builder, who doesn't over stock his shelves with complete rifles.

So you're comparing a builder who builds "One of a Kind" rifles, to a builder who builds the same rifle for anyone who orders.

There are differences.........
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:01 PM
  #29  
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Actually Hankins has a base SML using a Boyds stock. Pillar bedding is pretty much mandatory with that stock. Stocks like McMillain it isn't required since they come with ether bedding blocks or pillars already.

He stocks barrels and actions as far as i know. How many really isn't relevant in defining custom vs production. He appears to have settled on Brux for the most part now and uses Rem700 actions for his standard rifle.

Does UF still stock Howa 1500 actions and the barrels for them?

NULA has used a Douglas barrel for as long as im aware. They have used the same action for the model 20 aka M209 since day 1.

So by your definition its a production rifle if bought in the standard configuration. You would need to include the Gunwerks rifle too with that broad of a definition.

Only available in 50cal and the options are very limited. Fluting, stock pattern, finish and scopes

Calling this $7000 ML a production rifle is without a doubt a sever stretch of the term.

Last edited by Gm54-120; 03-21-2017 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:32 PM
  #30  
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$7000 some have more money than brains. Just makes me shake my head.
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