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sticks3 12-23-2014 05:03 AM

knight mountaineer
 
December 23rd, 2014, 6:18 am
So I'm new to the muzzleloader thing. Bought a knight mountaineer this year and put a vortex 4-16x42 on it. Here's what I'm doing then I'll go into my problem. Started off shooting 120 grains of bh209 with a Winchester 209 primer (blue box) and bloodline 250. The barrel is unbelievably dirty after each shot. Also I was having trouble grouping shots. Swabbing after each shot. Taking the breech plug out after every 3 or 4 shots. Went down to 110 grains and started grouping a little bit better but still extremely dirty barrel. I was under the impression that bh209 was cleaner burning. I mean I'm seeing little bits of powder in the barrel not just a haze. Any info or which direction to head would be much appreciated or anyone with knowledge on this gun.
Thanks

BarnesAddict 12-23-2014 05:46 AM


Originally Posted by sticks3 (Post 4176883)
December 23rd, 2014, 6:18 am
So I'm new to the muzzleloader thing. Bought a knight mountaineer this year and put a vortex 4-16x42 on it. Here's what I'm doing then I'll go into my problem. Started off shooting 120 grains of bh209 with a Winchester 209 primer (blue box) and bloodline 250. The barrel is unbelievably dirty after each shot. Also I was having trouble grouping shots. Swabbing after each shot. Taking the breech plug out after every 3 or 4 shots. Went down to 110 grains and started grouping a little bit better but still extremely dirty barrel. I was under the impression that bh209 was cleaner burning. I mean I'm seeing little bits of powder in the barrel not just a haze. Any info or which direction to head would be much appreciated or anyone with knowledge on this gun.
Thanks

Although BH IS CLEANER, it still leaves soot in the barrel. Its cleaner burning, as I doesn't create crud rings as other substitutes do. Also in many cases (not all), a maximum charge provides lessor accuracy/groups than a less than maximum charge. It appears you've somewhat proven that. Most do not swab between shots, because there's no crud rings to deal with. Although tight barrels may make the second or third round load harder.

Now here's a statement I'm going to make, that's going to get under the skin of all the EXPERTS of muzzleloading......

Change from the Win209's to one of the magnum primers, either the CCI209M or Federal 209A.

Triple Se7en 12-23-2014 06:43 AM

I would also suggest trying 100 grain loads..... then tweak it up or down.

Stay away from 110s - 120s type loads until you find a bullet and sabot that likes the combo.

But that can become an expensive project. Is it too late to ask Santa for an assortment of bullets and sabots?:wink:

Just don't ask the Santa I caught last December on my neighbor's roof?...:D

Triple Se7en 12-23-2014 06:48 AM


Originally Posted by BarnesAddict (Post 4176892)

Change from the Win209's to one of the magnum primers, either the CCI209M or Federal 209A.

I've been out-of-the-loop for several years here and noticed I have a few boxes of Remington 209-4 primers. In trying to recall from several years ago, how are the Remington 209-4 primers (410 model) rated these days?

I also have a few boxes of the Federal 209A. Seems to me I recall one of my two brands had a little loose fit and would sometimes escape my Omega when walking in the woods.

Maybe that':confused0024:s why I'm sitting here looking at two different brands of primers.

ronlaughlin 12-23-2014 07:00 AM

What i experienced with the Mountaineer, is the bits of powder, and soot in the barrel, kinda act like a lubricant i.e. the bullet/sabot went down the barrel easier, after it was fouled. Never did i ever clean the barrel, nor the breech plug, whilst at the range. Can't for sure write how many shots i put down the fouled barrel during one trip out shooting, but seems to me it may be around 30 or 20. The breech plug with it's large volume flame channel, never required cleaning until i came home.

If it were me concerned about accuracy, i guess i would start with about 90g of powder, and keep adding until there was a noticeable difference in accuracy. To really 'know' the best load may require many many trips out shooting, and many bottles of powder, boxes of primers, boxes of bullets, and containers of sabots. All the rifles i take hunting anymore, are loaded with 110 to 115g of powder, because i hunt the great plains, and desire long range capability. For short range hunting, i would probably use 80 or 90 grains of powder.

The Mountaineer should be able to safely handle 140g of powder, and no cleaning of the barrel, or the breech plug, should be required between shots.

Gm54-120 12-23-2014 07:53 AM


Change from the Win209's to one of the magnum primers, either the CCI209M or Federal 209A.
How many Knights with the Lehigh design breach plug have you owned and shot?

How clean were the CCI209M and Fed209As after you shot them with BH209?





Let me know if they looked like these Win209s


These were all max 120gr loads with 300gr-385gr bullets in my 54-120. Oddly even the WinT7 were flawless but i dont recommend them for BH209.

BarnesAddict 12-23-2014 08:13 AM


Originally Posted by Gm54-120 (Post 4176933)
How many Knights with the Lehigh design breach plug have you owned and shot?

How clean were the CCI209M and Fed209As after you shot them with BH209?





Let me know if they looked like these Win209s


These were all max 120gr loads with 300gr-385gr bullets in my 54-120. Oddly even the WinT7 were flawless but i dont recommend them for BH209.



Well that just impresses the living heck out of me. Especially the rings around the two centered right primers and the soot under the bottom left.

Gm54-120 12-23-2014 08:15 AM

I see you did not answer the questions. Is it safe to assume the answer is none?

BarnesAddict 12-23-2014 08:35 AM


Originally Posted by Gm54-120 (Post 4176945)
I see you did not answer the questions. Is it safe to assume the answer is none?

None. Simple.

But your primers just impress, especially the rings.

Is there something so special about a Knight, that it won't shoot a magnum primer and do it correctly?

sabotloader 12-23-2014 08:36 AM


Originally Posted by sticks3 (Post 4176883)
December 23rd, 2014, 6:18 am
So I'm new to the muzzleloader thing. Bought a knight mountaineer this year and put a vortex 4-16x42 on it. Here's what I'm doing then I'll go into my problem. Started off shooting 120 grains of bh209 with a Winchester 209 primer (blue box) and bloodline 250. The barrel is unbelievably dirty after each shot. Also I was having trouble grouping shots. Swabbing after each shot. Taking the breech plug out after every 3 or 4 shots. Went down to 110 grains and started grouping a little bit better but still extremely dirty barrel. I was under the impression that bh209 was cleaner burning. I mean I'm seeing little bits of powder in the barrel not just a haze. Any info or which direction to head would be much appreciated or anyone with knowledge on this gun.
Thanks

Sticks, BH does leave a lot of residue in the barrel. While it is a smokeless powder base and it is a progressive burning powder it really is not as clean as a real smokeless powder. For it to qualify as a black powder sub they do have to add a bit of sulfur and potassium + it has to meter like a BP. The added ingredients do cause fouling in the bore. Normally this fouling is really not a problem in loading the next round or continuing to shoot. And actually swabbing after each is not recommended.

One question I might ask is after you got the rifle did you really clean the bore? This could have made some difference in your results.

There is really no reason to remove the breech plug until you are done shooting. You should clean the flash channel in the breech plug every 10-15 shots by hand turning a 5/32" drill bit in the channel to loosen and remove the carbon build up. This is a common problem with all breech plugs.

I just make a gadget called a bit on a stick for this and do not have to remove the BP to do the cleaning... Just pull the bolt insert the tool and twist.



Your load of 120 grains of BH and the 250 Bloodline should work very well especially after you master the little things in shooting a ML that are so much different that shooting a center fire. I typically use the same load only with T7.

The breech plug was built using the W209 as the base primer. The way the plug is built there is not need to use Magnum primers and in fact I think it is a bit of a detriment. Of course they will work but are not necessary.

I shoot the W209 almost exclusively in all of my Knights, well shoot any of my rifles that the BP has been modified for BH.

This picture shows the spent primer from my Ultra Lite



Keep shooting and reading things will get a lot better. OH! and questions are good

mike


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