Well, I'm probably going to hear how wrong I am from some people for posting this, but here it goes:

It seems like a good number of recent posts have been on how to get BH209 to ignite reliably. All sorts of fixes - from custom breech plugs, to drilling out breech plugs, etc, etc. So I got to thinking about the advantages vs. disadvantages of BH.

From my point of view, there aren't many advantages, and several disadvantages to BH 209. Before I go into them, keep in mind that I never use more than 110 grains of powder, and tend to shoot lighter bullets.

I normally shoot Triple Seven FFFG, so I am going to compare BH 209 to it.

Advantages of BH:
-No swabbing between shots
-Non-corrosive

Disadvantages of BH:
-Much more expensive - $30 for 10oz compared to $22-25 for 16 oz T7

-Problems igniting- need tight fitting sabot

-Problems igniting- need proper breech plug. From what I understand, there aren't that many ML's that will shoot BH reliably right out of the box with no modifications. I understand that there are a few models that do, but some of those require you to carry around a drill bit to clean out the breech plug every few shots. Sounds like a pain to me. Almost as much of a pain as swabbing between shots

-Hard to find in some areas


Sabotloader has done a fair amount of chrono work with T7 and BH209, and from what I gather, T7 3f is equal to, or even FASTER than BH209 with loads up to 110 grains. I understand that some of you use 120 - 140 grains of BH209 to achieve some near-smokeless velocities, but the vast majority of people do not use that much powder.

So I guess maybe I don't get it. I can see how the non-corrosive nature of BH is attractive, but T7 isn't all that corrosive either. I've left a rifle dirty after shooting T7 for up to 48 hours before cleaning, and have never had a speck of rust. So unless you are the kind of person that only likes to clean your guns once a year..... again, don't see much of an advantage.

I'm not bashing anyone's choice, I'm just sort of interested in why BH209 has become such a craze it seems. Maybe someone can enlighten me?

I have come to the same conclusions. I am going to do some more experimenting with the bh though. First I am going to get the lehigh conversion for my disc elite.
Some people get a really bad crud ring with the triple 7, it has not been a big problem for me. The main thing with me is my budget.

Here is my 4 cents;

One: With 777, I must swab between every shot. I cannot even get two shots off using my t/c omega with 240g xtp's unless I put my entire 300lbs behind it. As long as I swab all is well. Nothing like needing to use a swab puller because the cleaning jag lossses the patch.

Two: No matter what I do my plug locks up. Teflon tape, grease and re-grease till the cows come home and yet, when it comes time to clean the gun after a day of shooting, I will need Jeff Gordon's pit crew to air wrench the breech plug off. It was only 5 weeks ago that I almost failed to remove the plug and was ready to head to the gun smith. This erks me because my gun is cleaned immaculately after each shooting session.

With Blackhorn 209, I made 25 shots in a row, with no swabbing. The 25th load was as easy as the first.

10 days of sitting in my Omega during gun week did not hurt it either. No rust after letting it sit after shooting and the plug came out like butter.

Three: Easy to clean. At first it was a pain to use gun solvents to clean when I was used to using water. But my last cleaning of my muzzy from 209 took 15 minutes and that included the plug.



D

oldsmellhound

One point... Western Powders has backed away from the non-corrosive statement. Chemical testing indicates the BH does has a small of Potassium Nitrate and Sulpher. So it's residue can work on your barrel also.

It is a lot safer than other subs and I believe it is less corrosive than T7 which is also as you say...but T7 isn't all that corrosive either. I've left a rifle dirty after shooting T7 for up to 48 hours before cleaning, and have never had a speck of rust.

Shoot! I leave my bores uncleaned all hunting season after shooting at the beginning of the season. I call the bore semi-clean as I run a windex patch after shooting a dry patch and then a very lightly oiled Montana X-treme BC patch - reload and go huinting again...

I believe that i would be in the same life boat as you cast adrift by the BH shooters, even though I have a case of it here that I got on sale at Cabelas for $20 per jug... But I still shoot T7...

I guess I never realized people had that many problems with T7 freezing breech plugs up. I always just put some anti-seize goop (same I use for spark plugs) on the threads before each shooting session, and I've never had issues.

Maybe I'm also blessed with the swabbing issue as well. I usually can load and shoot 3 times before I need to swab (though for best accuracy I swab between every shot).

But if you are having that much trouble with T7, then BH makes more sense....

To each their own is why we live in such a great country. If you like 777 or pyrodex or real BP that is what you shoudl shoot but for me BH 209 has been the best thing that has come along since penicillin. BH 209 has made me want to shoot a ML again. I shoot 30 + shots and never swab between shots and accuracy stays exactly the same through each shot. You do not have to run a drill bit in your BP after every few shots that's just not true, I do not run a drill but through mine until I have shot 30 or more shots or when I clean it if I haven't shot that many times. I clean it after I am through for the day with a couple of patches in Hoppes, my BP slides right out with absolutely no hassle and the gun ends up clean as new and I am done. It shoots absolutely great out of my TC Pro Hunter both @ firing every time and grouping @ around 1" at 100 yds. I would love to see just how many more people would shoot BH 209 if it was cheaper? In the future I am expecting more of the ML companies to be producing their ML to shoot BH 209 right out of the box. If they have any sense that is.

To each his own. I despise 777, I had to scrub my guns for what seemed like forever to get the crud-ring out, I go out to shoot and my time often limits how much I get to shoot With Blackhorn that's what I do.
On price, I have seen some of those ridiculous prices like at Bass Pro but have been able to get it at the same price as 777 or less by buying on sale and by the case over the Internet from Powder Valley.
You are pretty close to right on the velocity my own checking finds a slight advantage with Blackhorn when a tight sabot and enough wad pressure is use but at 110 gr and below there is not much difference; however I use up to 140 in one of my guns and I do find a big difference there.
I also find a difference in pressure the 120 gr load of777 shows the same pressure as a 135 gr load of Blackhorn with a 250 or 300 gr bullet and a bigger difference with a lighter bullet. If you did not know it Blackhorn is a progressive burning powder which means that with lighter bullets you have to put in enough powder to reach the efficient burning pressure before it becomes efficient and generates its full energy potential.
So what it boils down to is everybody needs to use what they like best, that's what keeps all of our suppliers in business and that helps the sport.

Been reading all the stuff about BH on this and other sites. Talked with several hunters who missed out on old mossy horns when their BH fizzled. It ain't for me.

777 is a good consistent powder and i still have some of it on hand. 777 also has some characteristics that i do not like: The crud ring, the tendency to seize the breechplug and swabbing after every shot.

Been using Goex Pinnacle for awhile and i'll stick with it. Somewhere i have a target with a 10 shot group that was fired at 100 meters without swabbing. It measures just over 2.25". Bought several cases of Pinnacle at bargain prices. Its all in Army 20mm ammo cans along with lots of military dessicant.

To each his own of course. I shoot BH out of my Genesis and 700ML (which has a non-approved BP by the way) without any modifications. I have probably shot my last load of 777. BH for my inlines and Goex for my sidelocks.

• I have no problem getting it to ignite. Never have.
• My breech plugs never get stuck anymore like they used to with 777.
• No more crud rings (though, I didn't get a lot of anyway)
• I enjoy shooting a lot more.
• I can get it locally for about $28 out the door.
• I don't fear rust if I can't get it cleaned immediatly.
• More accurate and consistant than 777 for me.
• It smells better too

I shot BlackHorn 209.

I really liked the way it shot.
It was accurate, powerful, and all the other things so often talked about.
But

It clogged my breech plug. At the time I did not even know that was a problem. I was unable to clean the thing. I never thought of drilling it out. So I threw it away. I never experienced another problem because I had shot off all the blackhorn 209..

I had to use solvent to clean the rifle. Solvent is much more expensive then soap and water or even Windex. And the rifle really did not clean any faster then any other powder. Although that might be my fault. Because if you ever saw the detail I take when I clean a rifle, you would understand.

It is more expensive. And cost can be a big factor to me. I like to catch my powders on sale and then buy them by the case. That way I save money.

As for powerful.. I never thought Pyrodex RS or Triple Seven, even Goex did not have enough power to get the job done. Were I hunt, I am not shooting 200 yards so maybe that little extra boost BH gives don't mean nothing. Triple Seven I always considered the powerful powder.

With Pyrodex RS I can always get off more then one shot. I have shot as many as five out of an inline before the fouling concerned me. And out of a Traditional rifle, I have shot a lot of times with just about any of the powders.

Blackhorn is not a local powder. So if I run out, I am out. Unless I want to suddenly get a large amount to off set the hazmat fee. With the other powders I can got to the sporting goods store and get a pound.

I am not saying that BlackHorn 209 does not have its place in this market, because it does. Too many of you are showing just what a good powder it is. Granted it has some quirks, but then all powders have quirks. The best thing is we use what is best suited for our needs. That might be BlackHorn or then it might be Goex or some other brand.

Enjoy shooting and shoot what you like.