Bergara or TC barrels for the Encore?
09-02-2010, 09:28 PM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rivesville, WV
Posts: 3,192
If you are considering a rifle barrel then look here:
http://www.encoreclassifieds.com/
There are a bunch of barrels on there.
Mike Bellm likes the Bergera barrels. But he also sells them. Some for decent price. I am not knocking them, but just be aware that he has "skin in the game".
Personally Bellm did a trigger for me and his work is impeccable. And I trust in his word, but just be careful.
If you take your time you should be able to find a good used custom barrel for about the same money. Or a little more.
Personally I will not buy a Bergera barrel because the TC warranty service is just too good. If you have any problems at all, TC will listen, and make it right. With their $50 rebate you can get a pretty good deal right now. I hae heard that Bergera has straightened up their problems with their barrels, but at one time they were very problematic.
I have also bought from EABCO. And I also consider them good people to deal with. The lady that answers the phone is very friendly. And will do what she says she will do. I really like my Encore rifles(not MZ), and find TC, EABCO, MGM, and Bellm to all be first class people to deal with. Tom.
http://www.encoreclassifieds.com/
There are a bunch of barrels on there.
Mike Bellm likes the Bergera barrels. But he also sells them. Some for decent price. I am not knocking them, but just be aware that he has "skin in the game".
Personally Bellm did a trigger for me and his work is impeccable. And I trust in his word, but just be careful.
If you take your time you should be able to find a good used custom barrel for about the same money. Or a little more.
Personally I will not buy a Bergera barrel because the TC warranty service is just too good. If you have any problems at all, TC will listen, and make it right. With their $50 rebate you can get a pretty good deal right now. I hae heard that Bergera has straightened up their problems with their barrels, but at one time they were very problematic.
I have also bought from EABCO. And I also consider them good people to deal with. The lady that answers the phone is very friendly. And will do what she says she will do. I really like my Encore rifles(not MZ), and find TC, EABCO, MGM, and Bellm to all be first class people to deal with. Tom.
09-04-2010, 10:07 AM
#13
Spike
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SC
Posts: 8
T/C vs Bergara Barrels.
I've been ask to make a comment on this post and would be glad to do so. I have been dealing with Thompson Center products for over 30 years. They always have and always will provide us all with high quality rifles.
However, in the past few years, CVA has become very focused on producing products to compete with the upper end TC rifles, and are doing just that. In fact, they have surpassed them in some way's: accuracy, right out of the box is only one.
Let me get one thing out of the way right off the bat, NO company has ever paid MAX not one red cent for anything I've written or any video I've produced. As of the past 30 days, we have stopped all retail sales of any product other than our own, other than the trigger job kits we sell, because we want to keep this exact type of comment from being said about MAX. So, we do not make any profit from selling Bergara barrels or any other prouduct as far as that goes at this time. But, after all of our testing, we do highly recommend them as a better choice over the TC barrels.
MAX will always maintain an indepindant research status, always. As far as choosing TC or Bergara for you Encore, here is what we have found. Bore scopes are not around every corner, but I have had use of one for the purpose of comparing TC to Bergara. As far as the inside of the barrels being tool mark free and smooth, which is what your looking for, the Bergara by far surpasses the TC barrel. This is what allows Bergara equiped rifles, of any brand to out perform other barrels. Don't just take my word for it, look who helped Bergara design these barrels, yes THE Ed Shiling. That should say it all. While shooting professionly in the Marine Corps, we shot Douglas barrels. When we got beat, it was most always by someone shooting Shiling barreled rifles, that's a fact.
Looking further down this thread, I saw someone saying "this guy is full of ...." about the groups we are getting from our testing, I belive they were talking about this "guy" as being me, maybe not. Well, there are a combination of things that make sub-one inch groups possible, it's not just the bullets. For every load we publish that will shoot or provide sub-one inch grops, we're not able to publish 10 that will not. So I guess you could say' give or take a few, we publish 1 out of every 10 loads we test and they are sub-one inch group capable.
In closing this post I will leave you all with this: you will get better out-of-the-box accuracy with a Bergara barrel than a TC. The TC needs more break-in time or lapping before being able to provide sub one groups right out of the box, in most cases. This is what my extinsive testing has proven.
Russell Lynch
Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts
www.maxmuzzleloader.com
However, in the past few years, CVA has become very focused on producing products to compete with the upper end TC rifles, and are doing just that. In fact, they have surpassed them in some way's: accuracy, right out of the box is only one.
Let me get one thing out of the way right off the bat, NO company has ever paid MAX not one red cent for anything I've written or any video I've produced. As of the past 30 days, we have stopped all retail sales of any product other than our own, other than the trigger job kits we sell, because we want to keep this exact type of comment from being said about MAX. So, we do not make any profit from selling Bergara barrels or any other prouduct as far as that goes at this time. But, after all of our testing, we do highly recommend them as a better choice over the TC barrels.
MAX will always maintain an indepindant research status, always. As far as choosing TC or Bergara for you Encore, here is what we have found. Bore scopes are not around every corner, but I have had use of one for the purpose of comparing TC to Bergara. As far as the inside of the barrels being tool mark free and smooth, which is what your looking for, the Bergara by far surpasses the TC barrel. This is what allows Bergara equiped rifles, of any brand to out perform other barrels. Don't just take my word for it, look who helped Bergara design these barrels, yes THE Ed Shiling. That should say it all. While shooting professionly in the Marine Corps, we shot Douglas barrels. When we got beat, it was most always by someone shooting Shiling barreled rifles, that's a fact.
Looking further down this thread, I saw someone saying "this guy is full of ...." about the groups we are getting from our testing, I belive they were talking about this "guy" as being me, maybe not. Well, there are a combination of things that make sub-one inch groups possible, it's not just the bullets. For every load we publish that will shoot or provide sub-one inch grops, we're not able to publish 10 that will not. So I guess you could say' give or take a few, we publish 1 out of every 10 loads we test and they are sub-one inch group capable.
In closing this post I will leave you all with this: you will get better out-of-the-box accuracy with a Bergara barrel than a TC. The TC needs more break-in time or lapping before being able to provide sub one groups right out of the box, in most cases. This is what my extinsive testing has proven.
Russell Lynch
Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts
www.maxmuzzleloader.com
09-04-2010, 12:45 PM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Saxonburg Pa
Posts: 3,925
maxmuzzleloader,
I'm sure you lead more people to believe then not. Most ML writers are very good at that. Let's bring out some facts for all to determine if they need to replace there T/C barrels with Bergara.
1- Bergara barrels come polished right from the factory. T/C barrels do not. So for obvious reasons right out of the box the Bergara barrel will be smoother. Actually smoother then most barrels. The solution to this is shooting your muzzleloader to break in the barrel.
Now you will probably say, i dont want to break in my barrel. I hope you would agree all ML'S need a good thorough cleaning before shooting. In this process, two patches of JB bore paste would smooth the bore just fine and maybe better.
Another easy way to polish/smooth the bore is shooting some lead connicals thru your T/C barrel. Or even some Thors/sabotless bullets. Either way will get your bore smooth and in accuracy condition pretty fast.
Now another point to mention is alot/most are using saboted bullets. The sabot will protect the bullet from any deficiencies in the barrel. This meaning you will not need to be overly concerned if your barrel is not in competition shooting condition. Actually the game you are shooting wont no the difference.
After owning Two Encore's, One ProHunter, Three Triumph's, and shooting several Omega's i would highly suggest all T/C owners to stick with the proven T/C barrels. Maybe a little work to get them nice and polished but you will be alot happier in the end.
And as far as the ML barrels, alot safer and way more reliable breech plug then what CVA has to offer. I also want to note, the Encore really has been the least accurate of the T/C guns i have owned. That break action design i was never fond of.
Now the Triumph on the other hand is different. CVA is along way away from competing with the Triumph in all aspects. The Triumph will out shoot most Bergara CVA'S day in and out. And yes, right out of the box.
I will mention that CVA has come along way. Better barrels no doubt, but they still got along way to go to compete with T/C,Knight and Savage.
BTW- I'm the one that said you were full of **** shooting sub 1" groups at 100yds with different loads and bullets right out of the box. And yes, i'm still sticking with that.
I'm sure you lead more people to believe then not. Most ML writers are very good at that. Let's bring out some facts for all to determine if they need to replace there T/C barrels with Bergara.
1- Bergara barrels come polished right from the factory. T/C barrels do not. So for obvious reasons right out of the box the Bergara barrel will be smoother. Actually smoother then most barrels. The solution to this is shooting your muzzleloader to break in the barrel.
Now you will probably say, i dont want to break in my barrel. I hope you would agree all ML'S need a good thorough cleaning before shooting. In this process, two patches of JB bore paste would smooth the bore just fine and maybe better.
Another easy way to polish/smooth the bore is shooting some lead connicals thru your T/C barrel. Or even some Thors/sabotless bullets. Either way will get your bore smooth and in accuracy condition pretty fast.
Now another point to mention is alot/most are using saboted bullets. The sabot will protect the bullet from any deficiencies in the barrel. This meaning you will not need to be overly concerned if your barrel is not in competition shooting condition. Actually the game you are shooting wont no the difference.
After owning Two Encore's, One ProHunter, Three Triumph's, and shooting several Omega's i would highly suggest all T/C owners to stick with the proven T/C barrels. Maybe a little work to get them nice and polished but you will be alot happier in the end.
And as far as the ML barrels, alot safer and way more reliable breech plug then what CVA has to offer. I also want to note, the Encore really has been the least accurate of the T/C guns i have owned. That break action design i was never fond of.
Now the Triumph on the other hand is different. CVA is along way away from competing with the Triumph in all aspects. The Triumph will out shoot most Bergara CVA'S day in and out. And yes, right out of the box.
I will mention that CVA has come along way. Better barrels no doubt, but they still got along way to go to compete with T/C,Knight and Savage.
BTW- I'm the one that said you were full of **** shooting sub 1" groups at 100yds with different loads and bullets right out of the box. And yes, i'm still sticking with that.
09-04-2010, 03:24 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rivesville, WV
Posts: 3,192
Mr. Lynch I am not familiar with your work, but I respect what you say.
I guess I only have a couple of questions. First you said in the past few years Bergera has come around to producing a better product. So that implies that their product prior to this "few years" might have been inferior?? So in your opinion does this denote a track record?? Or not??
Secondly you say the bore on the TC needs a good lapping?? That may be true. However I lap every barrel I buy(except one Krieger). But wouldn't shooting the barrel for a couple hundred shots do the same thing??
I am a big fan of the Encore. But not the Encore MZ. And I will admit that most of my Encore rifle barrels are MGM. But I have a few TC factory barrels.
My question is this. Do you honestly believe the Bergera barrel shoots so much better than a TC barrel that it is worth ignoring the Bergera track record?? And it out shoots the TC barrel so much that it replaces the customer service of TC?? Tom.
I guess I only have a couple of questions. First you said in the past few years Bergera has come around to producing a better product. So that implies that their product prior to this "few years" might have been inferior?? So in your opinion does this denote a track record?? Or not??
Secondly you say the bore on the TC needs a good lapping?? That may be true. However I lap every barrel I buy(except one Krieger). But wouldn't shooting the barrel for a couple hundred shots do the same thing??
I am a big fan of the Encore. But not the Encore MZ. And I will admit that most of my Encore rifle barrels are MGM. But I have a few TC factory barrels.
My question is this. Do you honestly believe the Bergera barrel shoots so much better than a TC barrel that it is worth ignoring the Bergera track record?? And it out shoots the TC barrel so much that it replaces the customer service of TC?? Tom.
09-04-2010, 05:32 PM
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
I've been ask to make a comment on this post and would be glad to do so. I have been dealing with Thompson Center products for over 30 years. They always have and always will provide us all with high quality rifles.
However, in the past few years, CVA has become very focused on producing products to compete with the upper end TC rifles, and are doing just that. In fact, they have surpassed them in some way's: accuracy, right out of the box is only one.
Let me get one thing out of the way right off the bat, NO company has ever paid MAX not one red cent for anything I've written or any video I've produced. As of the past 30 days, we have stopped all retail sales of any product other than our own, other than the trigger job kits we sell, because we want to keep this exact type of comment from being said about MAX. So, we do not make any profit from selling Bergara barrels or any other prouduct as far as that goes at this time. But, after all of our testing, we do highly recommend them as a better choice over the TC barrels.
MAX will always maintain an indepindant research status, always. As far as choosing TC or Bergara for you Encore, here is what we have found. Bore scopes are not around every corner, but I have had use of one for the purpose of comparing TC to Bergara. As far as the inside of the barrels being tool mark free and smooth, which is what your looking for, the Bergara by far surpasses the TC barrel. This is what allows Bergara equiped rifles, of any brand to out perform other barrels. Don't just take my word for it, look who helped Bergara design these barrels, yes THE Ed Shiling. That should say it all. While shooting professionly in the Marine Corps, we shot Douglas barrels. When we got beat, it was most always by someone shooting Shiling barreled rifles, that's a fact.
Looking further down this thread, I saw someone saying "this guy is full of ...." about the groups we are getting from our testing, I belive they were talking about this "guy" as being me, maybe not. Well, there are a combination of things that make sub-one inch groups possible, it's not just the bullets. For every load we publish that will shoot or provide sub-one inch grops, we're not able to publish 10 that will not. So I guess you could say' give or take a few, we publish 1 out of every 10 loads we test and they are sub-one inch group capable.
In closing this post I will leave you all with this: you will get better out-of-the-box accuracy with a Bergara barrel than a TC. The TC needs more break-in time or lapping before being able to provide sub one groups right out of the box, in most cases. This is what my extinsive testing has proven.
Russell Lynch
Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts
www.maxmuzzleloader.com
However, in the past few years, CVA has become very focused on producing products to compete with the upper end TC rifles, and are doing just that. In fact, they have surpassed them in some way's: accuracy, right out of the box is only one.
Let me get one thing out of the way right off the bat, NO company has ever paid MAX not one red cent for anything I've written or any video I've produced. As of the past 30 days, we have stopped all retail sales of any product other than our own, other than the trigger job kits we sell, because we want to keep this exact type of comment from being said about MAX. So, we do not make any profit from selling Bergara barrels or any other prouduct as far as that goes at this time. But, after all of our testing, we do highly recommend them as a better choice over the TC barrels.
MAX will always maintain an indepindant research status, always. As far as choosing TC or Bergara for you Encore, here is what we have found. Bore scopes are not around every corner, but I have had use of one for the purpose of comparing TC to Bergara. As far as the inside of the barrels being tool mark free and smooth, which is what your looking for, the Bergara by far surpasses the TC barrel. This is what allows Bergara equiped rifles, of any brand to out perform other barrels. Don't just take my word for it, look who helped Bergara design these barrels, yes THE Ed Shiling. That should say it all. While shooting professionly in the Marine Corps, we shot Douglas barrels. When we got beat, it was most always by someone shooting Shiling barreled rifles, that's a fact.
Looking further down this thread, I saw someone saying "this guy is full of ...." about the groups we are getting from our testing, I belive they were talking about this "guy" as being me, maybe not. Well, there are a combination of things that make sub-one inch groups possible, it's not just the bullets. For every load we publish that will shoot or provide sub-one inch grops, we're not able to publish 10 that will not. So I guess you could say' give or take a few, we publish 1 out of every 10 loads we test and they are sub-one inch group capable.
In closing this post I will leave you all with this: you will get better out-of-the-box accuracy with a Bergara barrel than a TC. The TC needs more break-in time or lapping before being able to provide sub one groups right out of the box, in most cases. This is what my extinsive testing has proven.
Russell Lynch
Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts
www.maxmuzzleloader.com
As long as you have a product you will have an agenda just like any other marketer. And the bottom line will always be money.
09-04-2010, 05:33 PM
#17
Spike
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SC
Posts: 8
Sir,
I'm sure that you have been on this forum for a long time and may be one of the go-to leader's here as well. I can tell you have been shooting and owning TC muzzleloaders for quite some time, and I will respect that. More so than you have respected me.
I was specifically asked by one of my MANY satisfied customers to respond to this thread to help give a little professional input, and right off the bat, this is what I get. My advice, sir, comes from ten's of thousands of dollars of research, and hundreds and more hundreds of hours of range time. I don't know how much time, money and experience your advice comes from, but that's my hand, and I play it very well.
With that said, I will say that it is obvious you have very limited knowledge of the muzzleloading industry as a whole.
1. You said: “I'm sure you lead more people to believe then not. Most ML writers are very good at that.” I lead people to achieve better accuracy and big game performance from research and testing through my professional experience. I am very good at helping them achieve this through unbiased facts.
2. You said: “Bergara barrels come polished right from the factory. T/C barrels do not. So for obvious reasons right out of the box the Bergara barrel will be smoother.” This is the reason that Bergara barrels are more prone to produce tighter shot-groups right out-of-the-box. You yourself have agreed with this statement. If you had watched either one of my first two videos (one on the Encore, the other on the Omega) you be aware that I advise that one way to get TC rifles to shoot better is to shoot it many multiple times to get the barrel to settle down.
3. You said: “Now you will probably say, I don’t want to break in my barrel.” I never said this, but highly recommend it with a TC barrel.
4. You said: “I hope you would agree all ML'S need a good thorough cleaning before shooting. In this process, two patches of JB bore paste would smooth the bore just fine and maybe better.” I do agree that cleaning is necessary before a new rifle is fired, and all manufacturers recommend the same thing. However, two patches of JB bore paste WILL NOT smooth a bore to any noticeable difference in accuracy. I don’t know where you get your information, but that is absolutely not true.
5. You said: “Another easy way to polish/smooth the bore is shooting some lead conicals thru your T/C barrel. Or even some Thors/sabotless bullets. Either way will get your bore smooth and in accuracy condition pretty fast.” There is no easy way to smooth the tool marks from a barrel. Lead conicals is something I do recommend to someone who wants to shoot a TC Encore barrel, but it is not an easy or quick fix to the tool mark issue. That is also a fact.
6. You said: “Now another point to mention is alot/most are using saboted bullets. The sabot will protect the bullet from any deficiencies in the barrel. This meaning you will not need to be overly concerned if your barrel is not in competition shooting condition. Actually the game you are shooting wont no the difference.” No matter if the sabot surrounds the bullet going down the barrel, the tool marks left in the barrel still have an effect. In other words, sir, you cannot omit the tool marks just because you are shooting a saboted bullet. And tool mark will most certainly affect a plastic sabot. This is another fact. And by the way, if you MISS your target, the game will certainly not know the difference, but YOU will.
7. You said: “After owning Two Encore's, One ProHunter, Three Triumph's, and shooting several Omega's i would highly suggest all T/C owners to stick with the proven T/C barrels. Maybe a little work to get them nice and polished but you will be alot happier in the end.” Sir, you obviously admit in this paragraph that you agree with me that TC barrels need some work to get them nice and polished. You also seem to admit that you have no experience with CVA or any other muzzleloading brands. And again, there is NO EASY PROCESS to smoothing a barrel.
8. You said: “And as far as the ML barrels, alot safer and way more reliable breech plug then what CVA has to offer.” Other than whatever old articles you may have read on the internet that were most likely published by Randy Wakeman, do you know anything at all about CVA’s safety record? Past or present? If you can find a current article on the CVA breach plug not being reliable or safe, I would appreciate you proving that by sending it to me.
9. You said: “I also want to note, the Encore really has been the least accurate of the T/C guns i have owned. That break action design i was never fond of.” Here sir, you openly admit that Encore’s are not accurate and according to you, this is due to the break action design.
10. You said: “Now the Triumph on the other hand is different.” I want to point out that the Triumph is also a break action design. But your above statement says the Encore is inaccurate due to the break action design. So, what makes your Triumph different from the Encore in this regard. ??
11. You said: “The Triumph will out shoot most Bergara CVA'S day in and out. And yes, right out of the box.” First of all, Bergara does not own CVA. Even though both companies are owned by BPI, Inc. Bergara simply supplies the barrels for CVA rifles. You cannot possibly have a qualified opinion about whether a Triumph can or cannot out shoot a CVA as you don’t appear to own a CVA or have stated you have any experience with one at all.
12. You said: “I will mention that CVA has come along way. Better barrels no doubt, but they still got along way to go to compete with T/C,Knight and Savage.” In this statement, you agree that CVA has come a long way and without doubt have better barrels. But you also make the comparison, not only to TC, but to Knight & Savage. Are you aware that Knight has been closed and reopened but is selling leftovers and parts and it is unknown whether they will ever manufacture another rifle? And also, are you aware that this is the last year that Savage will be producing their muzzleloader? If they can out compete CVA, why are they both going out of business?
13. You say: “BTW- I'm the one that said you were full of **** shooting sub 1" groups at 100yds with different loads and bullets right out of the box. And yes, i'm still sticking with that.” When you said such derogatory remarks about me in your first post, I was an unknown person/company and maybe that sort of thing is allowed or even welcomed on this forum. But once I responded, the fact that you attacked me again personally with such a statement seems extremely rude and shows your level of class.
Just for more information on me, I own more than a dozen TC rifle's that will all shoot less than 1" groups at 100 yards, but none right out-of-the-box. Most all of them have TC factory barrels on them. You seemed to have assumed, wrongly, that I don’t like TC, which I never said. So who's the opened minded person here now?
I have not got a clue as to how much real, professional experience you have in the topic of which you find yourself in the position to be giving this type of advice, nor will I ever truly know. But I will tell you this, I have the professional background to back up what I am saying. I also have a 30 plus years of history as a very well-respected public servant in Law Enforcement and in the United States Marine Corps. My level of character, loyalty and truthfulness, as far as I can tell, is far greater that yours, I will assure you of that.
I am an un-sponsored professional in the ballistic, accuracy and marksmanship industry. All of these things are set in stone, I have earned all of my credentials the hard way, I've worked for them, and they cannot be disputed. See my website for a list of my qualifications.
Now sir, I'm respecting that you have the right to say whatever you want to, in fact I have been personally involved in defending the very Constitution of the United States in order for you to be able do so, for over 30 years. Have you done the same for me or anyone else? If not, that's ok, I did it for us all, and have never asked anything in return.
I would extend to you this: if you truly want to have a good look at who I am and what my company does and what I’m about, send me your mailing address and I will supply you with free copies of every How To DVD that I have produced to date. This may give you some insight so you can be more qualified to give advise about muzzleloading to other people in the future.
Finally, I will now monitor this forum for inaccuracies that you might post concerning the muzzleloading industry. I owe this to the muzzleloader consumers, whom I directly work for.
Sincerely,
Russell Lynch
Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts
www.maxmuzzleloader.com
I'm sure that you have been on this forum for a long time and may be one of the go-to leader's here as well. I can tell you have been shooting and owning TC muzzleloaders for quite some time, and I will respect that. More so than you have respected me.
I was specifically asked by one of my MANY satisfied customers to respond to this thread to help give a little professional input, and right off the bat, this is what I get. My advice, sir, comes from ten's of thousands of dollars of research, and hundreds and more hundreds of hours of range time. I don't know how much time, money and experience your advice comes from, but that's my hand, and I play it very well.
With that said, I will say that it is obvious you have very limited knowledge of the muzzleloading industry as a whole.
1. You said: “I'm sure you lead more people to believe then not. Most ML writers are very good at that.” I lead people to achieve better accuracy and big game performance from research and testing through my professional experience. I am very good at helping them achieve this through unbiased facts.
2. You said: “Bergara barrels come polished right from the factory. T/C barrels do not. So for obvious reasons right out of the box the Bergara barrel will be smoother.” This is the reason that Bergara barrels are more prone to produce tighter shot-groups right out-of-the-box. You yourself have agreed with this statement. If you had watched either one of my first two videos (one on the Encore, the other on the Omega) you be aware that I advise that one way to get TC rifles to shoot better is to shoot it many multiple times to get the barrel to settle down.
3. You said: “Now you will probably say, I don’t want to break in my barrel.” I never said this, but highly recommend it with a TC barrel.
4. You said: “I hope you would agree all ML'S need a good thorough cleaning before shooting. In this process, two patches of JB bore paste would smooth the bore just fine and maybe better.” I do agree that cleaning is necessary before a new rifle is fired, and all manufacturers recommend the same thing. However, two patches of JB bore paste WILL NOT smooth a bore to any noticeable difference in accuracy. I don’t know where you get your information, but that is absolutely not true.
5. You said: “Another easy way to polish/smooth the bore is shooting some lead conicals thru your T/C barrel. Or even some Thors/sabotless bullets. Either way will get your bore smooth and in accuracy condition pretty fast.” There is no easy way to smooth the tool marks from a barrel. Lead conicals is something I do recommend to someone who wants to shoot a TC Encore barrel, but it is not an easy or quick fix to the tool mark issue. That is also a fact.
6. You said: “Now another point to mention is alot/most are using saboted bullets. The sabot will protect the bullet from any deficiencies in the barrel. This meaning you will not need to be overly concerned if your barrel is not in competition shooting condition. Actually the game you are shooting wont no the difference.” No matter if the sabot surrounds the bullet going down the barrel, the tool marks left in the barrel still have an effect. In other words, sir, you cannot omit the tool marks just because you are shooting a saboted bullet. And tool mark will most certainly affect a plastic sabot. This is another fact. And by the way, if you MISS your target, the game will certainly not know the difference, but YOU will.
7. You said: “After owning Two Encore's, One ProHunter, Three Triumph's, and shooting several Omega's i would highly suggest all T/C owners to stick with the proven T/C barrels. Maybe a little work to get them nice and polished but you will be alot happier in the end.” Sir, you obviously admit in this paragraph that you agree with me that TC barrels need some work to get them nice and polished. You also seem to admit that you have no experience with CVA or any other muzzleloading brands. And again, there is NO EASY PROCESS to smoothing a barrel.
8. You said: “And as far as the ML barrels, alot safer and way more reliable breech plug then what CVA has to offer.” Other than whatever old articles you may have read on the internet that were most likely published by Randy Wakeman, do you know anything at all about CVA’s safety record? Past or present? If you can find a current article on the CVA breach plug not being reliable or safe, I would appreciate you proving that by sending it to me.
9. You said: “I also want to note, the Encore really has been the least accurate of the T/C guns i have owned. That break action design i was never fond of.” Here sir, you openly admit that Encore’s are not accurate and according to you, this is due to the break action design.
10. You said: “Now the Triumph on the other hand is different.” I want to point out that the Triumph is also a break action design. But your above statement says the Encore is inaccurate due to the break action design. So, what makes your Triumph different from the Encore in this regard. ??
11. You said: “The Triumph will out shoot most Bergara CVA'S day in and out. And yes, right out of the box.” First of all, Bergara does not own CVA. Even though both companies are owned by BPI, Inc. Bergara simply supplies the barrels for CVA rifles. You cannot possibly have a qualified opinion about whether a Triumph can or cannot out shoot a CVA as you don’t appear to own a CVA or have stated you have any experience with one at all.
12. You said: “I will mention that CVA has come along way. Better barrels no doubt, but they still got along way to go to compete with T/C,Knight and Savage.” In this statement, you agree that CVA has come a long way and without doubt have better barrels. But you also make the comparison, not only to TC, but to Knight & Savage. Are you aware that Knight has been closed and reopened but is selling leftovers and parts and it is unknown whether they will ever manufacture another rifle? And also, are you aware that this is the last year that Savage will be producing their muzzleloader? If they can out compete CVA, why are they both going out of business?
13. You say: “BTW- I'm the one that said you were full of **** shooting sub 1" groups at 100yds with different loads and bullets right out of the box. And yes, i'm still sticking with that.” When you said such derogatory remarks about me in your first post, I was an unknown person/company and maybe that sort of thing is allowed or even welcomed on this forum. But once I responded, the fact that you attacked me again personally with such a statement seems extremely rude and shows your level of class.
Just for more information on me, I own more than a dozen TC rifle's that will all shoot less than 1" groups at 100 yards, but none right out-of-the-box. Most all of them have TC factory barrels on them. You seemed to have assumed, wrongly, that I don’t like TC, which I never said. So who's the opened minded person here now?
I have not got a clue as to how much real, professional experience you have in the topic of which you find yourself in the position to be giving this type of advice, nor will I ever truly know. But I will tell you this, I have the professional background to back up what I am saying. I also have a 30 plus years of history as a very well-respected public servant in Law Enforcement and in the United States Marine Corps. My level of character, loyalty and truthfulness, as far as I can tell, is far greater that yours, I will assure you of that.
I am an un-sponsored professional in the ballistic, accuracy and marksmanship industry. All of these things are set in stone, I have earned all of my credentials the hard way, I've worked for them, and they cannot be disputed. See my website for a list of my qualifications.
Now sir, I'm respecting that you have the right to say whatever you want to, in fact I have been personally involved in defending the very Constitution of the United States in order for you to be able do so, for over 30 years. Have you done the same for me or anyone else? If not, that's ok, I did it for us all, and have never asked anything in return.
I would extend to you this: if you truly want to have a good look at who I am and what my company does and what I’m about, send me your mailing address and I will supply you with free copies of every How To DVD that I have produced to date. This may give you some insight so you can be more qualified to give advise about muzzleloading to other people in the future.
Finally, I will now monitor this forum for inaccuracies that you might post concerning the muzzleloading industry. I owe this to the muzzleloader consumers, whom I directly work for.
Sincerely,
Russell Lynch
Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts
www.maxmuzzleloader.com
09-04-2010, 05:40 PM
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sir,
I will now monitor this forum for inaccuracies that you might post concerning the muzzleloading industry. I owe this to the muzzleloader consumers, whom I directly work for.
Sincerely,
Russell Lynch
Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts
www.maxmuzzleloader.com
I will now monitor this forum for inaccuracies that you might post concerning the muzzleloading industry. I owe this to the muzzleloader consumers, whom I directly work for.
Sincerely,
Russell Lynch
Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts
www.maxmuzzleloader.com
Just what we need
09-04-2010, 06:13 PM
#19
Spike
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SC
Posts: 8
Tom,
I appreciate your respect of me and my knowlege and I am happy to answer your questions. Since you are not familar with my work, I hope you will go to my website and I think it will be clear as to who I am and what my intentions are.
1. You said: “First you said in the past few years Bergara has come around to producing a better product. So that implies that their product prior to this "few years" might have been inferior?? So in your opinion does this denote a track record?? Or not??” What I said was: “However, in the past few years, CVA has become very focused on producing products to compete with the upper end TC rifles, and are doing just that.” Bergara is owned by BPI (Black Powder Incorporated) as is CVA. Bergara simply supplies the barrels for CVA rifles. What I’m implying is that in the past CVA has been viewed as a value brand muzzleloader, not as a premium brand muzzleloader. By producing the Accura and Apex, CVA is now doing a very good job at providing the muzzleloading consumer with a rifle that competes with or surpasses their competitors (whoever that might be).
2. You said: “Secondly you say the bore on the TC needs a good lapping?? That may be true. However I lap every barrel I buy(except one Krieger). But wouldn't shooting the barrel for a couple hundred shots do the same thing??” Yes, it most certainly would. I say that in my videos on the TC products. Truth be known, any rifle barrel, muzzleloader or centerfire, by any manufacturer will get better with age by being shot. But it costs us between $2 - $2.75 each and every time we pull the trigger on a muzzleloader. The TC rifles are already pretty pricey compared to the other options, don’t you think they should perform accordingly? So, should consumers be expected pay another $200 plus dollars just to get their TC, or any other rifle, to perform? If you look at all muzzleloader manufacturers marketing, they will lead you to believe that you can expect minute-of-angle accuracy out-of-the-box. All I’m saying is that the CVA rifles I have tested perform better than TC rifles I’ve tested off-the-shelf.
3. You said: “My question is this. Do you honestly believe the Bergara barrel shoots so much better than a TC barrel that it is worth ignoring the Bergera track record??” To start with, I would like to point out that I know of no negative track record with Bergara at all. The only negative track record that anyone might have could be with CVA, not Bergara. It is no secret, and CVA will tell you, that in 1995 and 1996 CVA voluntarily recalled a certain model of rifle. That was an isolated incident that to my knowledge has been corrected and was back when they were under different ownership. I want to go on record as saying: There are no current safety issues or any other quality issues that I’m aware of with CVA, Bergara or any other BPI product.
4. You said: “And it out shoots the TC barrel so much that it replaces the customer service of TC??” The lack of proper customer service from Thompson Center is what has put me in the business of what I am doing right now in the muzzleloader industry. When I purchased my first TC Encore 9 years ago, I was appalled at the lack of accuracy that the rifle would produce. After numerous calls to TC attempting to get the accuracy problem fixed, I ended up pulling from my past experience in ballistics, accuracy and marksmanship and ended up solving the problem myself. Read the quote below from my website (and a book that will be released to the public in the next few weeks).
“M.A.X. was created when Russell had a poor experience with an upper-end, inline muzzleloader around 2003. Despite repeated phone calls, the manufacturer of the rifle was not a lot of help on fixing the accuracy problem, so Russell took matters into his own hands. Utilizing his past professional experience with shooting, ballistics, rifles and marksmanship to achieve precision, long-range accuracy, Russell took his knowledge and resolved that situation. Realizing that everyone did not have the extensive background he had, Russell began to share his experience with others so that they might get the same results from their muzzleloaders. And M.A.X. was born.”
I appreciate your respect of me and my post in this forum and I hope that I have answered all your questions.
Thanks,
Russell
MAX Muzzleloader
www.maxmuzzleloader.com
I appreciate your respect of me and my knowlege and I am happy to answer your questions. Since you are not familar with my work, I hope you will go to my website and I think it will be clear as to who I am and what my intentions are.
1. You said: “First you said in the past few years Bergara has come around to producing a better product. So that implies that their product prior to this "few years" might have been inferior?? So in your opinion does this denote a track record?? Or not??” What I said was: “However, in the past few years, CVA has become very focused on producing products to compete with the upper end TC rifles, and are doing just that.” Bergara is owned by BPI (Black Powder Incorporated) as is CVA. Bergara simply supplies the barrels for CVA rifles. What I’m implying is that in the past CVA has been viewed as a value brand muzzleloader, not as a premium brand muzzleloader. By producing the Accura and Apex, CVA is now doing a very good job at providing the muzzleloading consumer with a rifle that competes with or surpasses their competitors (whoever that might be).
2. You said: “Secondly you say the bore on the TC needs a good lapping?? That may be true. However I lap every barrel I buy(except one Krieger). But wouldn't shooting the barrel for a couple hundred shots do the same thing??” Yes, it most certainly would. I say that in my videos on the TC products. Truth be known, any rifle barrel, muzzleloader or centerfire, by any manufacturer will get better with age by being shot. But it costs us between $2 - $2.75 each and every time we pull the trigger on a muzzleloader. The TC rifles are already pretty pricey compared to the other options, don’t you think they should perform accordingly? So, should consumers be expected pay another $200 plus dollars just to get their TC, or any other rifle, to perform? If you look at all muzzleloader manufacturers marketing, they will lead you to believe that you can expect minute-of-angle accuracy out-of-the-box. All I’m saying is that the CVA rifles I have tested perform better than TC rifles I’ve tested off-the-shelf.
3. You said: “My question is this. Do you honestly believe the Bergara barrel shoots so much better than a TC barrel that it is worth ignoring the Bergera track record??” To start with, I would like to point out that I know of no negative track record with Bergara at all. The only negative track record that anyone might have could be with CVA, not Bergara. It is no secret, and CVA will tell you, that in 1995 and 1996 CVA voluntarily recalled a certain model of rifle. That was an isolated incident that to my knowledge has been corrected and was back when they were under different ownership. I want to go on record as saying: There are no current safety issues or any other quality issues that I’m aware of with CVA, Bergara or any other BPI product.
4. You said: “And it out shoots the TC barrel so much that it replaces the customer service of TC??” The lack of proper customer service from Thompson Center is what has put me in the business of what I am doing right now in the muzzleloader industry. When I purchased my first TC Encore 9 years ago, I was appalled at the lack of accuracy that the rifle would produce. After numerous calls to TC attempting to get the accuracy problem fixed, I ended up pulling from my past experience in ballistics, accuracy and marksmanship and ended up solving the problem myself. Read the quote below from my website (and a book that will be released to the public in the next few weeks).
“M.A.X. was created when Russell had a poor experience with an upper-end, inline muzzleloader around 2003. Despite repeated phone calls, the manufacturer of the rifle was not a lot of help on fixing the accuracy problem, so Russell took matters into his own hands. Utilizing his past professional experience with shooting, ballistics, rifles and marksmanship to achieve precision, long-range accuracy, Russell took his knowledge and resolved that situation. Realizing that everyone did not have the extensive background he had, Russell began to share his experience with others so that they might get the same results from their muzzleloaders. And M.A.X. was born.”
I appreciate your respect of me and my post in this forum and I hope that I have answered all your questions.
Thanks,
Russell
MAX Muzzleloader
www.maxmuzzleloader.com
09-04-2010, 06:38 PM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rivesville, WV
Posts: 3,192
I guess I was mistaken. I thought that CVA always wore the Bergera barrels(in the last ten years or so). I realize CVA is a trade name, and not a mfr. So it would be appropriate that Bergera and CVA are different companies. I do understand that. Personally I do not own any of the current Bergera barrels so it would be inappropriate for me to comment on their accuracy. I really was talking about my prior opinions of CVA products. And I may have inappropriately connected the two at the hip.
I did personally sell TC products on the wholesale level for many years. I also sold CVA products on the wholesale level. My company carried by both products. So my actual experience was with the amount ofv CVA product I had to return vs. the amount of TC product I had to return. This time period was in the 80's thru early 90's. And honestly I returned 10 to 1 CVA over TC. But in fairness I also sold considerably more CVA product because of the price. So that is where I developed the prior track record opinion.
Also the fact that I could call TC CS and they would replace a product on my word. At times I did not even need to send a product back. Whereas with CVA it was more troublesome. And also the fact that I sold alot of Charles Daly which was supplied to us through CVA, but produced overseas.
In my honest opinion if TC products shot just over 1 MOA and Bergera shot just under 1 MOA. I would still go with the TC products. First because personally I do believe TC CS is better. And second it is an American made product.
However in the past I have not had a problem attaining 1MOA with my TC factory barrels. Albeit with a little work, but none the less.
I also guess it is alot cheaper for me to shoot an MZ because I cast all my own bullets. So for me cost of projectiles is not important. But I do respect what you say about people who have to buy them. But then 1-1/2 hours of elbow grease and a few brushes and a jar of JB will solve most problems. Tom.
I did personally sell TC products on the wholesale level for many years. I also sold CVA products on the wholesale level. My company carried by both products. So my actual experience was with the amount ofv CVA product I had to return vs. the amount of TC product I had to return. This time period was in the 80's thru early 90's. And honestly I returned 10 to 1 CVA over TC. But in fairness I also sold considerably more CVA product because of the price. So that is where I developed the prior track record opinion.
Also the fact that I could call TC CS and they would replace a product on my word. At times I did not even need to send a product back. Whereas with CVA it was more troublesome. And also the fact that I sold alot of Charles Daly which was supplied to us through CVA, but produced overseas.
In my honest opinion if TC products shot just over 1 MOA and Bergera shot just under 1 MOA. I would still go with the TC products. First because personally I do believe TC CS is better. And second it is an American made product.
However in the past I have not had a problem attaining 1MOA with my TC factory barrels. Albeit with a little work, but none the less.
I also guess it is alot cheaper for me to shoot an MZ because I cast all my own bullets. So for me cost of projectiles is not important. But I do respect what you say about people who have to buy them. But then 1-1/2 hours of elbow grease and a few brushes and a jar of JB will solve most problems. Tom.