Do Shockwaves expand?
12-06-2008 | 09:06 AM
#21
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Nov 2005
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RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
I have had excellant results with the SW myself, but I believe that there is one thing some people dont take into account; every bullet is designed to work at certain velocities, these people that are trying to shoot SW or SST bullets with less than 100 gr of BH or 777 or 110gr of RS need to use someting else.
When you use to light a load they wont work right, I shoot them at 2200fps and they do real well at that speed.
Maybe we shopd make up a list of bullets and those of us that actually do testing might put in the approx amate min and max.
When you use to light a load they wont work right, I shoot them at 2200fps and they do real well at that speed.
Maybe we shopd make up a list of bullets and those of us that actually do testing might put in the approx amate min and max.
12-06-2008 | 09:49 AM
#22
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,282
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From: North Carolina
RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
The thingI like about the Barnes Expander bullets is they work well over a very wide range of velocities. They will expand down to 1100 fps and will do the same at high velocity and not fragment. Here is a picture ofa bullet I shot a doe with at 100 yards. 100 grain 777 pellets, 250 grain Barnes TEZ. The mushroom is textbook. Blood trail was super easy to follow. Wound channel was enormous.
12-06-2008 | 10:05 AM
#23
Typical Buck
Joined: Aug 2005
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RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
don't want to ruffle any feathers ...but ...the HORNADY SST .250gr. and the T/C SHOCKWAVE .250 gr. are made by HORNADY ..both are fantastic shooters in my T/C ENCORE ..i shot 1 spike and 1 female this fall and both were hit through the heart ,both were complete pass-throughs ,both ran over 50 to 75 yards ..here comes the good part NO BLOOD TRAIL on both deer ...we had snow on the ground so tracking was easy [recovered both deer ] my parteners were not as lucky they lost 4 deers [NO BLOOD TRAIL] the snow had all melted ..we searched for 2 hours and never found them ...after doing some research on different forums i found what i was looking for ,something that will not waste good meat ..i know shot placement is of the utmost importance ..we all have scopes on our ML. ers ..from now on [BARNES SPIT-FIRE TMZ .250gr.]
12-06-2008 | 03:02 PM
#24
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Nontypical Buck
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RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman
Spaniel, I agree with you assessment of the reviews. I also agree that SW is good bullet, but I would claim it is designed for long range shooting, not close back east in the wood 50 to 80 yard shots. Most guys have problems when the see the BDC scope, get a 250 sw and shoot it 50 yards at a deer and then because of smoke, not a poor hit can't find a blood trail. I just wanted to point out that there is a downside to SW, as evidenced by the reviews and some testimony of fellow members on this board.
Chap
ORIGINAL: spaniel
This is what I will say about some of those reviews. I read Cabelas reviews a lot and sometime they are good and sometimes they amuse me.
1) One guy says the deer traveled 50 yards but he was not impressed with the damage. The deer traveled 50 YARDS. That is hardly a far run and perfectly acceptable. If you want them DRT every time, use artillery!!!
2) Another claims they don't expand, entrance and exit same size but good damage in between. #1, no bullet recovered so you can't say for sure it didn't expand (see my pic of XTP). #2, if there is good damage in between and the deer drops in short order, what's the problem??
3) Another claims they don't expand, pencil through, and they let SEVERAL deer go 2 hours before finishing off with another load (STILL ON FEET). Buddy, if your deer is still on its feet after 2 hours, YOU STINK, not the bullet. You did NOT shoot it in the heart or lungs. You gut shot it and expect an exploding bullet of some sort to make up for your p!$$ poor shooting ability. No deer shot through the lungs with ANYTHING will be alive after 2 hours. I can buy poor blood trails, but this is evidence of just bad shooting and I cannot blame the bullet. Fifty or so deer I've shot with this bullet, maybe 10-15 of them shoulder shots, the rest though the ribs/lungs and none made it more than 100 yards. If this 2 hour stuff was the norm with a lung shot I'd have seen it!
I posted 2 pics of bullets I was able to recover because I shot them through the shoulder. This is not reflective of the majority of the deer I shoot with the 200SW, which are shot lower through the ribs/lungs and exit every time yet drop DRT or within a short distance. Hard to recover such bullets downrange. No, I cannot post pictures showing them expanded but I have a lot of dead deer that couldn't tell the difference!
The wife is out of town unexpectedly so she can't stop me from trying to fill my last 2 doe tags tomorrow morning!! I'll see if I can gather some more evidence...I just loaded the long-range Omega with a 200SW and the X7 with a 300 bonded SW.
This is what I will say about some of those reviews. I read Cabelas reviews a lot and sometime they are good and sometimes they amuse me.
1) One guy says the deer traveled 50 yards but he was not impressed with the damage. The deer traveled 50 YARDS. That is hardly a far run and perfectly acceptable. If you want them DRT every time, use artillery!!!
2) Another claims they don't expand, entrance and exit same size but good damage in between. #1, no bullet recovered so you can't say for sure it didn't expand (see my pic of XTP). #2, if there is good damage in between and the deer drops in short order, what's the problem??
3) Another claims they don't expand, pencil through, and they let SEVERAL deer go 2 hours before finishing off with another load (STILL ON FEET). Buddy, if your deer is still on its feet after 2 hours, YOU STINK, not the bullet. You did NOT shoot it in the heart or lungs. You gut shot it and expect an exploding bullet of some sort to make up for your p!$$ poor shooting ability. No deer shot through the lungs with ANYTHING will be alive after 2 hours. I can buy poor blood trails, but this is evidence of just bad shooting and I cannot blame the bullet. Fifty or so deer I've shot with this bullet, maybe 10-15 of them shoulder shots, the rest though the ribs/lungs and none made it more than 100 yards. If this 2 hour stuff was the norm with a lung shot I'd have seen it!
I posted 2 pics of bullets I was able to recover because I shot them through the shoulder. This is not reflective of the majority of the deer I shoot with the 200SW, which are shot lower through the ribs/lungs and exit every time yet drop DRT or within a short distance. Hard to recover such bullets downrange. No, I cannot post pictures showing them expanded but I have a lot of dead deer that couldn't tell the difference!
The wife is out of town unexpectedly so she can't stop me from trying to fill my last 2 doe tags tomorrow morning!! I'll see if I can gather some more evidence...I just loaded the long-range Omega with a 200SW and the X7 with a 300 bonded SW.
Chap
Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you that the SW is probably not the best bullet out there if you know your shots are going to be under 100 yds. I'm sure a true hollowpoint design will, on average, lead to better blood trails (I'm not an XTP fan though, but a Barnes or Precision Rifle HP or Nosler).
12-06-2008 | 03:25 PM
#25
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Nontypical Buck
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RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
As luck would have it I got more test results today:
Omega X7 launching a 300gr BONDED Shockwave with 120gr FFg 777; purposely avoided the shoulder blade for this test, shot behind it for a high lung hit at 81 yards:
The bullet hit no bone and very little tissue -- being high in the lungs there was minimal width to traverse, maybe 6-8 inches of hide, thin ribcage muscle and lung. That was it. Did the bullet expand? Well, I honestly doubt a huge amount as this is really a TOUGH bullet to be shooting at a deer (this gun was set up for elk) and it didn't have to go through much. You can see the holes in both lungs, one right in the center of the picture and the other off to the right.
Honestly this is about the least damage I have ever seen from a Shockwave. This does not surprise me as this bullet is a lot stouter than the 200gr version, which I'm sure opens much easier. Another reason I am comfortable with 200-250gr bullets on deer.
No massive trauma, no foot-wide wound channel. Damage was restricted to a 2-inch circle around the bullet's path. Typically with the 200gr there'd be 2-3 times as much damage. So I think this shows the 200gr opens better than the 300gr bonded on deer-sized game.
This is my point though. I purposely shot a hard bullet through an area unlikely to encourage massive bullet expansion -- but I poked both lungs, and she was DRT. If your deer are running off where you can't find time, I question the impact location. I could have seen this deer running 50-70 yds if it's been spooked when I shot but lung-shot deer don't go far in my experience.
I certainly agree there are better bullets for close-range-only shooting or situations where a good blood trail is a must. For example if I were hunting a field of goldenrod where they are impossible to follow/find without excellent blood. I don't think there's that big of a trade-off as one might think though.
I am always leery of over-expansion, I want an exit. I have a buddy who swears by the Barnes Expander too, and while I have never tried them in a ML I did try them in a shotgun and was turned off -- the 12ga bullets are bigger, so if you hit the shoulders you ruined half the deer and they rarely exited, which concerned me. This concern was borne out when I shot a small doe with one and the bullet exploded on the surface of the shoulder blade without penetrating. I've never heard of this in a ML but with so many options I could never get myself to try them.
Overall I think I'm a little cynical about the touted differences between different bullets and bullet designs. I've had good luck with SWs. I've tried soft lead hollowpoints when I needed the deer to go down DRT, and they actually ran further than a SW shot in the same place. I have not tried some of the newer designs but HTPs, XTPs, SWs, Keith Nose hollowpoints, QT, DCs, I could not tell the difference. Shoot them in both lungs, down they go. Shoot only one lung or the heart, they could go 150-200 yds. Shoot them anywhere else, anything from DRT to off to the races. I can see a pattern in the result by where I hit the deer, but not by the bullet.
Omega X7 launching a 300gr BONDED Shockwave with 120gr FFg 777; purposely avoided the shoulder blade for this test, shot behind it for a high lung hit at 81 yards:
The bullet hit no bone and very little tissue -- being high in the lungs there was minimal width to traverse, maybe 6-8 inches of hide, thin ribcage muscle and lung. That was it. Did the bullet expand? Well, I honestly doubt a huge amount as this is really a TOUGH bullet to be shooting at a deer (this gun was set up for elk) and it didn't have to go through much. You can see the holes in both lungs, one right in the center of the picture and the other off to the right.
Honestly this is about the least damage I have ever seen from a Shockwave. This does not surprise me as this bullet is a lot stouter than the 200gr version, which I'm sure opens much easier. Another reason I am comfortable with 200-250gr bullets on deer.
No massive trauma, no foot-wide wound channel. Damage was restricted to a 2-inch circle around the bullet's path. Typically with the 200gr there'd be 2-3 times as much damage. So I think this shows the 200gr opens better than the 300gr bonded on deer-sized game.
This is my point though. I purposely shot a hard bullet through an area unlikely to encourage massive bullet expansion -- but I poked both lungs, and she was DRT. If your deer are running off where you can't find time, I question the impact location. I could have seen this deer running 50-70 yds if it's been spooked when I shot but lung-shot deer don't go far in my experience.
I certainly agree there are better bullets for close-range-only shooting or situations where a good blood trail is a must. For example if I were hunting a field of goldenrod where they are impossible to follow/find without excellent blood. I don't think there's that big of a trade-off as one might think though.
I am always leery of over-expansion, I want an exit. I have a buddy who swears by the Barnes Expander too, and while I have never tried them in a ML I did try them in a shotgun and was turned off -- the 12ga bullets are bigger, so if you hit the shoulders you ruined half the deer and they rarely exited, which concerned me. This concern was borne out when I shot a small doe with one and the bullet exploded on the surface of the shoulder blade without penetrating. I've never heard of this in a ML but with so many options I could never get myself to try them.
Overall I think I'm a little cynical about the touted differences between different bullets and bullet designs. I've had good luck with SWs. I've tried soft lead hollowpoints when I needed the deer to go down DRT, and they actually ran further than a SW shot in the same place. I have not tried some of the newer designs but HTPs, XTPs, SWs, Keith Nose hollowpoints, QT, DCs, I could not tell the difference. Shoot them in both lungs, down they go. Shoot only one lung or the heart, they could go 150-200 yds. Shoot them anywhere else, anything from DRT to off to the races. I can see a pattern in the result by where I hit the deer, but not by the bullet.
12-06-2008 | 03:45 PM
#26
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Nov 2005
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RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
spaniel
I very much agree, bullet placement is what counts. I started out with PRB and have taken 52 deer that way and 1 elk and 2 bear and when you put a 54cal PRB where you are supposed to they don't go far. When we first started using inlines I used home cast lead bullets [flat nose 240 gr Keith 44cal] cast out of wheel weights and they did not hardly open at all, hit in the right place most went less than 100yds. Since I started using heavy loads about all have dropped or went less than 35 yards but part of the reason is SW and Gold Dot 250 gr Bullets.
I have come to the conclusion that some people don't even aim at the right place. Lee
I very much agree, bullet placement is what counts. I started out with PRB and have taken 52 deer that way and 1 elk and 2 bear and when you put a 54cal PRB where you are supposed to they don't go far. When we first started using inlines I used home cast lead bullets [flat nose 240 gr Keith 44cal] cast out of wheel weights and they did not hardly open at all, hit in the right place most went less than 100yds. Since I started using heavy loads about all have dropped or went less than 35 yards but part of the reason is SW and Gold Dot 250 gr Bullets.
I have come to the conclusion that some people don't even aim at the right place. Lee
12-06-2008 | 04:39 PM
#28
Nontypical Buck
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RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
ORIGINAL: oldsmellhound
I think you have to take some of those reviews with a grain of salt. Anyone can post those- they may be exaggerating, they may be flat-out lying, or they may be telling the truth. Who knows??? People are much more likely to blame the "bad bullet" than themselves for being a crappy shot. A deer shot through the heart/lungs with ANY .45 cal bullet, regardless of expansion, is not going to be alive 2 hours later as long as there was adequate penetration.
I do agree with Chap though, that the SST/SW is not designed for, or is necessary for eastern woods deer hunting, where the vast majority of deer are taken at ranges under 100 yards. Where it shines is long range shooting- situations where the terrain is open, you can't get very close, and it's not a big deal if the deer runs off 50 or 75 yards after the hit. Now in the thick stuff, I'd be using a hollow-point bullet that expands & penetrates well and leaves a good blood trail- i.e. Barnes Expanders or the like.
I think you have to take some of those reviews with a grain of salt. Anyone can post those- they may be exaggerating, they may be flat-out lying, or they may be telling the truth. Who knows??? People are much more likely to blame the "bad bullet" than themselves for being a crappy shot. A deer shot through the heart/lungs with ANY .45 cal bullet, regardless of expansion, is not going to be alive 2 hours later as long as there was adequate penetration.
I do agree with Chap though, that the SST/SW is not designed for, or is necessary for eastern woods deer hunting, where the vast majority of deer are taken at ranges under 100 yards. Where it shines is long range shooting- situations where the terrain is open, you can't get very close, and it's not a big deal if the deer runs off 50 or 75 yards after the hit. Now in the thick stuff, I'd be using a hollow-point bullet that expands & penetrates well and leaves a good blood trail- i.e. Barnes Expanders or the like.
Chap
12-06-2008 | 04:45 PM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Dec 2005
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From:
RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
ORIGINAL: lemoyne
Maybe we shopd make up a list of bullets and those of us that actually do testing might put in the approx amate min and max.
Maybe we shopd make up a list of bullets and those of us that actually do testing might put in the approx amate min and max.
I think that would be a good thing Lee. I agree with all you said.
Chap
12-06-2008 | 04:48 PM
#30
Nontypical Buck
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RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
ORIGINAL: LKNCHOPPERS
The thingI like about the Barnes Expander bullets is they work well over a very wide range of velocities. They will expand down to 1100 fps and will do the same at high velocity and not fragment. Here is a picture ofa bullet I shot a doe with at 100 yards. 100 grain 777 pellets, 250 grain Barnes TEZ. The mushroom is textbook. Blood trail was super easy to follow. Wound channel was enormous.
The thingI like about the Barnes Expander bullets is they work well over a very wide range of velocities. They will expand down to 1100 fps and will do the same at high velocity and not fragment. Here is a picture ofa bullet I shot a doe with at 100 yards. 100 grain 777 pellets, 250 grain Barnes TEZ. The mushroom is textbook. Blood trail was super easy to follow. Wound channel was enormous.