Well Chap convinced me to start taking shoulder shots from here on out.Even though muzzleloader season is over and I am now rifle hunting.I am going back to the Barnes MZ Expanders and will try the Harvester crushed rib sabots with them.I should never gotten away from the Barnes but they are hard to get down so for first time I will try some of the Harvester crushed rib sabote in my Genesis.Anyone who uses these crushed rib sabots any feed back would be helpfull as how they shoot and definitely how much better do they load.When I started blackpowder hunting I used to always shoot shoulder first but some how got away from it not wanting to loose any meat but that is better than letting a whole deer go off unrecovered.Thanks for reminding me Chap! Mike

Give FPBs a try. They load and shoot great in my Genesis, and no sabot to worry about. And according to Hornady, no worries shooting through shoulders either. I plan to find out for myself this weekend.

I use Barnes MZ Expanders in 300gr with Crushed Rib sabots in my CVA Wolf and took two deer last year. That was my first year hunting with a muzzleloader. I went out and bought a Knight KRB and it shoots the 250gr Expanders well with the same sabots. I'm just tweaking the powder charge in the KRB. It seems to shoot better with more than 100gr. The Crushed Rib sabots go down "snug" in both the CVA and KRB. I heard you don't want them too loose? I took this doe last year with the 300gr Crushed Rib sabot combo in the shoulder. When the smoke cleared she was laying still on her back. I don't think you'll ever hear anyonetalk bad about the Barnes MZ Expanders. I will probably never shoot at another deer with a slug again.

Here is a four shot group from about two weeks ago before I put it away for this weekend. I'm heading out to Pope County Illinois for the firearm opener. CVA Wolf, Barnes 300gr/crushed rib sabot, 100gr Pyrodex pellets, W209 primer at 100 yards. Picture is not that great but gets the point accross.

VA - the CR sabots load easier than the standard sabots. I've been using the Green CR (for 430" bullet) using a 300 gr Hornady XTP with right about MOA accuracy using 100 gr of Pyro P. This bullet/sabot combo goes down snug with a steady, even pressure but is not overly tight.
My other ML shoots the 300 gr Shock Waves good with the T/C EZ load sabot. I got some on sale with the std black sabot but they are hard to load. I picked up the Black CR sabots (.451" bullet) but have yet to try them.
As for the shoulder shots, I really don't like them, even with my center fires. I prefer to slip the bullet in behind the shoulder.
However, my theory of shooting deer, and the one that I taught my son is basically to visualize a basketball setting between the deer's shoulder and aim for the center of it or slightly below center. This works regardless of the angle of the deer. If the shoulder is in the way depending on angle, so be it. Using this method, I have yet to loose a deer I shot. Most dropped where they stood.

Thanks so much for the feedback on the crushed rib sabots as I will be ordering them tomorrow along with 25 Barnes MZ expanders.I know the Barnes will put the knockdown on them just need another sabot to make them easier to get down and the Harvester sabots sound good.If I ever need a followup I dont need a lot of hassle getting a second one down the barrel.Looking forward going back to Barnes bullets but I had never bought sabots separate from the ones that came with the bullets.Also thanks for the heads up on the Hornady FPB bullets as they also sound interesting to me! Mike