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Have you considered ............

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Have you considered ............

Old 01-21-2008, 11:03 PM
Typical Buck
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Wide open Nevada
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Default Have you considered ............

I see lots of questions posted in here like "Have I got enough gun , I can only shoot a 300grn bangwhamer uber slug with 80 grs of FFG in my 45 whats it ".
It makes me nuts some times . The 45-70 has slain man and beast in every field with a lil sissy 350-500 grn bullet soundering allong at a measly 1800fps (only in the last 60-70yrs hopped up to a blistering 2000-2200fps) propelled by less in some cases alot less than 70grs of FFG . And that hot rod the 45 Colts launches a 250 at 850fps with a paltry 37grs and is considered a 50+ yrd deer slayer.
Now I know that a cartrige is "cheating a little" but aren't all these 209 inlines a closed sealed breach?
I just saw a new .45 magnum ,the builder escapes me ,that is rated for 3 50 grn pellets and a 250grn bullet . The 45-110-500 aka "the Quigley gun" matches the 458 Win mag . The above load would be about a 45-150-250 and that pushes the realm of the 460 Weatherby .
Just seems to me that the purety of the front stuffer is lost at some point and/or we've lost sight of just how little it takes to "cleanly and humanly harvest" an animal we intend to eat .
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Old 01-21-2008, 11:13 PM
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Default RE: Have you considered ............

i agree, its sad to find that people use these 3 pellets loads just because its stamped onto their barrel. In my .45 i use 80 grains powder with a 225 grain powerbelt. I do not worry about this FPS stuff. All i want is a bullet that shoots flat and is going to perform and put the game down quickly.

If you were to ask a new muzzleloading hunter which load would he would rather use for 100 yard shooting to drop game fast and gave him these two options:
250 grain sabot over 150 grain pellets Or
405 grain conical over 70 grains powder.
Ask the guy which is going to have better Take down energy on game, He'd more than likely tell you the 250 grain because it has a lot more powder behind the bullet

I dont do inlines anymore, going back to patched roundball.
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Old 01-22-2008, 07:03 AM
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Mexico
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Default RE: Have you considered ............

It is interesting to see just how effective the "old" loads are. This past weekend I was helping my son do some bullet testing for a science fair project that involves lead bullets. I will be posting some of the results as soon as he completes compiling the data. Let me tell you, some of the penetration results were impressive.
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Old 01-22-2008, 08:04 AM
Nontypical Buck
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Default RE: Have you considered ............

Just seems to me that the purety of the front stuffer is lost at some point and/or we've lost sight of just how little it takes to "cleanly and humanly harvest" an animal we intend to eat .
Agreed. Which is why all my MLs are sidelocks.
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:40 AM
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Default RE: Have you considered ............

When I was a kid, most folks considered a .357 handgun plenty for deer. Then, after a few magazine writers got going, the .357 was marginal and only the .44 mag was really enough. Some years later, along came the .454 Casull and suddenly the .44 mag was marginal! I guess now that they've got that .50 whatzit I've heard about, even the .454 is garbage now. I wouldn't know. I quit reading gun mags when I saw that bit about the .44 being marginal.

Someone once named the affliction "magnumitis" and it's taken over the entire hunting world. Cartridge, muzzleloading... even archery, fer cryin' out loud!

I'm sticking with PRB's in front of modest powder charges. That always worked fine for me before. I'm sure it'll still work fine today. I don't much worry about what other folks have got stuffed down the bore of their guns. None of my business.
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Old 01-22-2008, 11:09 AM
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Default RE: Have you considered ............

ORIGINAL: dmurphy317

It is interesting to see just how effective the "old" loads are. This past weekend I was helping my son do some bullet testing for a science fair project that involves lead bullets. I will be posting some of the results as soon as he completes compiling the data. Let me tell you, some of the penetration results were impressive.
David, I remember talking to you about this project. So now he is doing the experiment, which is the shooting. I look forward to hearing what he did. Chap Gleason
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Old 01-22-2008, 11:29 AM
Nontypical Buck
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Location: southwest Ohio
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Default RE: Have you considered ............

Haven't killed all that many deer with a muzzleloader. Maybe 10 or 12 total. They all were shot at under 100 yards (some much under) with bullets ranging from 250 to 300 grains pushed by 80 to 100 grains of powder. All shots have been in the "boiler room" and all but one dropped in it's tracks! The one that ran was already running from other hunters and made the mistake of stopping to look back. It went about 30 yards after the shot.
I have also shot a few deer with a .45 Colt pistol (Ruger - and I had hot reloads with 250grcast bullets in it) and none of them went more than a few steps.
I agree that a big heavy bullet lumbering along at slow to medium velocity is all it takes - IF you put it in the right place!
BTW - One of those deer with the .45 revolver was running and I led it too far. []The bullet hit it's neck, broke the spine, and the buck's head dropped and the antlers hit the ground causing it to do a complete flip. It never moved again! Not a shot I'm proud of, but the results were still good with that big heavy bullet.
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Old 01-22-2008, 11:35 AM
Typical Buck
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Default RE: Have you considered ............

On the other hand, the modern inlineand various expanded loadinghas also done wonders at bringing new folks into muzzleloading that otherwise would likely never have. Which some folks also see as a terrible thing. For me more folks in the sport is a better thing versus fewer.

Forthose of us that shoot both modern and traditional ML's and loads,they both offer a nice contrast and broadens the environment and hunting experienceswith muzzleloading weapons. I love going from a Scoped Encore on one day to a Flintlock the next and a percussion of some flavor (inline orsidelock)the day after that.

Unfortunately for the sidelock, there are very few production models available anymore. Which is a shame.

As for the modern loads and ML's, 99% of all of that is really marketing fluff. Approaches and campaigns designed to do one thing = sell more product. Modern ML's are no different than any other product with a vast marketing engine behind it.

The question is do you buy theproduct itselfor the marketing fluff?

I think we all fall subject to the marketing-speak at some point or another eventually. Some more so than others.

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Old 01-22-2008, 11:53 AM
Dominant Buck
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Location: Wisconsin
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Default RE: Have you considered ............

The problem you find is many people who are uninformed fall in to the hype of muzzleloaders and their "game taking" ability. They are reading magazines and watching TV hunting shows where these paid "experts" are bragging about the need for their 150 grain load and their sponsors bullet, their other sponsors rifle, and their other sponsors optics. Then we even have them selling us powder. Buy this powder because my names on it. It is the best out there.

Before all these magnum capable rifles were around. Most of us shot from 70-100 grains of powder. And we still hunted and took the same animals they are taking today with their 150 grain charges. Now I am not saying that the magnum muzzleloader does not have its place. It does. If I were hunting large game at long distances then the stronger the powder charge the rifle shoots, could be a real advantage. Even light game at extreme distance, the stronger charges might be a plus. But is that to say a skilled shooter could not do the same with a 100 grains charge? For what most people hunt and the distances we shoot at, 75-110 grains of powder is more then enough. Sabotloader proved that this elk season with his 300 grain Nosler and110 grain charge, at I believe 176 yards approximately.

When our forefathers were wandering this land shooting game to stay alive, they often times used a simple roundball and a very light powder charge. Why? Powder was hard to come by. So was lead in some cases. They really had to watch what supplies they shot. They were more into getting close to their game and making their shot count.

Although let me say this.. hunt with what gives you the most confidence in yourself and your rifle.
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Old 01-22-2008, 01:18 PM
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,425
Default RE: Have you considered ............

I bought my first flintlock in the mid 70s...A .45 caliber...I used this gun for about 15 years and killed around 25 deer with...My powder charge was 70grs of Goex FFF...I tested this load by putting up a 2x4 at 75 yards and the ball passed through...A .440 ball weighs 128grs...At 60-70 yards it would pass through shoulder blades, the spine and end up under the hide on the off side...

In 1990 I made a .54 caliber flintlock, a .530 ball weighs 224grs...My initial loads were anywhere from 100-120grs...About 5 years ago I went to 80grs of Goex FFF...This load kills as good as the heavier loads...The advantage of a .54 ball over a .45 is that on lung shots I get more pass throughs (maybe 75% of the time)...Frankly, I can't see any difference as to how far the deer run with a lung shot...I just have a better blood trail...

I bought a Knight Disc about 6 years ago, initially I used 2-50gr pellets and a 300gr Barnes MZ...I always got a pass through...About 3 years ago, I switched to 90grs FFF and a 250 Shockwave...In my testing the Shockwave shot flatter than the 300 Barnes, with less powder and less recoil...I have killed deer out to 143 yards with this loading and almost always get a pass through...BUT...In my estimation, they actually run a little further on a lung shot than with the .54...I use this when hunting over fields in the evenings and since I'm 52, the Leupold sure does help...

I did shoot 150grs with the 300 Barnes...ONCE!!!

After I picked up my hat, I decided not to do that again...My hunting buddy is still laughing about watching me do that...

80-90grs is plenty...If you are looking at a long range loading, I can see going up to 110-120, my rifle just doesn't group well (the inline) with that much powder...You will see more advantage to proper bullet selection for longer ranges vs just increasing the powder charge...You will also reach a point with sabots and patches that they are so damaged that accuracy goes down the tubes...
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