200, heck no, just order the flate rate package

UC

Well this ought to fire up the coals already this morning...

If you must use conicals - then i totally agree Bull Shop conicals are the way to go, but if you have your choice of conicals and real modern projectiles the modern projectile is the way to go especially out here in the west with extended ranges and very often the animals will not pose for you nor do you get to shoot them in the conditions that you would choose.

The factor that you overlook often is speed kills. The longer the bullet is in flight the more varibles that can act on it. The reason for dumping conicals in the first place... in fact the one of the reason conicals replaced round balls.

Your vision of more power really is not significantly true either. The modern projectile will give you far better trajectory and time to target, not to mention less varibles.

Here is a comparison of a 460 grain conical to a 300 grain Nosler with a lower BC than the 460.... Compare power/drop/time to target & energy... think I'll take the 300.

Sabotloader, I never hunted muzzleloader out west yet, so you are much more qualified in that department. I never shot at long range with them. BUT... on paper there is a difference. No argument there. But in the field, if you know the trajectory of your projectile, what's the difference?

Its the same with aroundball. The more of them you shoot at different distances, you understand that since my target is 125 yards out and I am sighted in for 75 yards, I need to aim five inches or what ever, above my POI to make that roundball get out there on target. But the point is, it will get out there, on target, if I do all my stuff right for bullet considerations.

If I know my Nosler hits two two inches high at 100 yards to do the job out there. And my conical must hit three inches high at 100 yards to make the same hit further down range, what is the difference? To me I aim higher with one and not the other. I know my load and adjust for it. I also know that my conical make the minimum of a .5045 hole as it enters and who knows when it leaves through the vital organs, even if it does not expand. The Nosler on the other hand makes a .452 hole on entering and who knows what when it expands. Also the big lead conicals I have shot deer with must have retained their weight as I never recovered one yet out of a deer.All pass through. Both are going to put a big fat hole through the vital organs if I do my job.

As for this idea of shooting at moving game, I would never shoot at a animal flat out. And if the animal was walking.. I really do not see the difference in my POIas a problem.I just think it is a matter of learning your projectile and what it does.

cayugad

TIME - no time wasted on thinking about trajectory. For us here in Northern Idaho, anyway for me,it is often point and shoot between trees, across draws, up angles, down angles, moving animals, even animals running.... Time Time Time is a huge factor between a big bull and no animal at all.

I realize this is the conventional theory with most ML shooters - but it really is a bunch of bull... Shoot a bigger bullet... Heck, with that theory we should just use a bigger arrow forget the design of the broadhead. What really matters is what does the bullet do on the way through the animal and what does it do on impact. Sometime get out a set of calipers and look at the difference of 500's of an inch, then divide that that by two for the circumference what really is the difference. If your conical was that good of a performer we would still be using it. Professional hunters (if you want to call them that) would have never made the switch from conicals to copper clad bullets. The military would still be shooting conicals. A modern day bullet will out perform any conical on most occasions over a wider range of varibles for the majority of the shooters out thereand that really is the key. Somewhere in there somebody might even throw in the thought about humane kills which is a big consideration these days.

To me that is a confidence level each shooter has to evaluate on his own. I honestly do not know where I fit into that because i will shoot a moving animal even a running animal if I feel it is within my skill level and I believe I can complete the shot effectivley. My two hunting partners, are also very accomplished shooters, although they do it with centerfires, and they will also take those shots. We very seldom get and an elk to pose for us let alone pose on an angle to our liking. 8 out of ten shots will be at sort of a moving animal.

Speaking ofa moving animal - you should see a mule deer when he/she is moving you really had better be good. And believe it - there are some really good shooters in southern Idaho just because of them crazy animals.

Sorry to go off here but!!! you are wrong and i might take a beating here but that really is my belief.

I have to get in here just a little. I have only shot a few elk and they were all cows as I cannot get drawn for a bull it seems. I am a meat hunter anyway so no problem. The first cow I shot with a 348gr. powerbelt that went through the animal including the center of the heart sideways (due to some real mistakes on my part in selecting powder) and stopped in the farside skin. She walked slowly about 30 yards and dropped over. I consider that a conical hit as the plastic tip was still in the bullet. I shot the last one with a 300gr. SST double lung shot passthough and after she saw me and bolted I shot again (running full out at about 80 yards) and hit the lung and part of the liver. That was a 295gr. Powerbelt that also passed completely through. She managed to go another 1/4 mile where I had to head shoot her to put her on the ground. I am now considering using big conicals as the small fast ones don't seem to drop them fast enough. I only hunt ranges up to 100-150 yards so the flat shooting is not very important. The powder charge was 90gr. Black Mag'3 out of an Omega. First one was a T/C Scout with 90gr. Goex ClearShot (reason for the keyhole).

MLKeith

I have shot a 5 point bull with a ML and a 300 grain/.452 Nosler - range was not much - 70 yards - he too bolted but he was dead when he bolted got down the hill about 70 yards and piled up when he ran into a big Ponderosa Pine tree (he saw me and he was alerted to something being wrong - his adrenelin was already starting to run). I have shot at least a dozen of them with a 200 grain .308 Nosler from a 300 Win Mag and have experianced the same bolt with it and of course some have buckled and dropped in their tracks. On the other hand I have shot several elk with a 130 grain 270 and dropped them in place. Every hunting season more elk. deer, bear and others are dropped with an 06 than any other gun and they are shooting a .308/180 grainbullet. It is not size! it is velocity and bullet performance on the target and of course the almighty placement...

If you are really expecting your big conical to give you the ultimate perfromance on an elk you might be surprised - some will some will not. This really probably does not go here but if a peofessional hunter hunting dangerous game were given the choice of a conical or a proven jacketed bullet which do you think he might choose - in fact which would you choose. Heck they do not even use the 12 bore anymore - they use modern centerfires.

I have no problem with people choosing to shoot conicals in fact i really enjoy the change but given the choice and the fact that I hunt for food I would always take the modern jacketted bullet of my choice. The people with the pull in the state of Idaho even know that the sabot and jacketted bullet is more deadly and accurate over all the varibles than the conical - we can shoot conicals but we can not shoot jacketted bullets during ML season. The conical will not do the collateral damage that a good copper clad bullet will do on the way theanimal. And again I will use the case of the broad head as an example... shoot an arrow with a soft lead tip or shoot a broad head designed to turn and cut on the way through.

Conicals work but, the right copper clad or all copper bullet will out perform it and do it quicker.

This is all good information anddifferent viewpoints from some obviously experienced muzzleloader hunters and I appreciate the information. Since I have hunted Mule Deer in 8 different western states since 1960 with center fire rifles, I know our style of hunting is much different than other areas of our country. I have been in many situations where I do not have the ideal shot or the animal is moving and will usually take the shot because that is what you have to do when hunting Mule Deer and Elk in the western states. I know when we are talking about muzzleloader hunting it is quite different since you have to be closer, but I think if I had the opportunity to shoot at a trophy class Whitetail on my November trip I would probably take the shot. Regarding bullets, I had always thought that sabot bullets were more accurate than conicle bullets, and had better ballistics. Correct me if I'm wrong because I am new at muzzleloaders.

silverstreak

I really do not think, and rember i am a sabotshooter, I really can fire the Bull Shop conical as accurate as i can my favorite Noslers on paper, but in a hunting situation that we face out here in the west - I will take a Nosler of Sierra SPBT all day.

There are now ML bullets with the Plastic( polymere) tips that really rise the BC of larger bore bullets - they are ballistically superior to any conical and rival some modern centerfire bullets, but I question their short range performance shot at the velocities they need to be shot at to be a 200+ yard performer. i still hang in there with the the time proven amd personally proven lower class bullet.For me in the rightcircumstances a 200 yard shot is not a problem, but you have to remember I am coming from a 300 win mag and/or a 270 - heck with them a 200 yard shot is like shooting in your back yard.

My reccomendation to you still remains a 260 grain Nosler Partiton but if I knew for sure you could shoot a 10mm 200 grain Hornady XTP accurately from a White bore that is whatI would shoot deer with. From myWhite I can shoot the lights out @a 100 with the 10mm but @ 200 they fall off... the 260 does not.

Once you hit the chest cavity with a Nosler and see what it does you will see what I mean.

Hey good luck on you hunt...wish I were going - come north one year and hunt some whitetails up here with your White...

Mike, my buddy,,,,,, as long as you are calling people wrong, I'll return the favor.

You are wrong to bring centerfires into this discussion.....for obvious reasons.

Your take on the dangerous game is wrong. IF a professional hunter was going to hunt dangerous game with a MUZZLELOADER, my guess is they would take a HUGE conical and pack as much powder as they can behind it. You know, like that 620 gr Bullshop I was shooting that one day with 100 gr of 777. Only, I would probably pack it with 10-20 more grains of powder. I doubt any professional would use a little pistol bullet. Remember, only one shot. Again, you kind of compaired centerfire to MLer. NOT FAIR. How many big conical shooter - repeaters are there out there??? Your logic ain't makin sense.

I understand your arguement about shooting at a moving animal. Everyone has to make choices on what they are and are not capable. I would shoot at a CLOSE moving animal if the conditions were perfect, but if one is far away like the shots you are talking about, 100-200 yards, my personal belief is that if the animal is moving, it is just not a high percentage shot.

Just say you shoot a 1" group at 150 yards off of a bench. What can you shoot offhand? Let's say you shoot a 3" group. What does that group open up to when the target is moving? Now at 100 or about 160 yards and above, you haveto add 3" morebecause that is what you have done with your point blank range numbers. You said you have to just shoot, so no time to factor in those 3" toyour shot. It makes sense to me that unless the shooter is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT, EVERY TIME, he should not take those shots at a moving target. Maybe you are perfect, but I am not.

Also, you seem kind of grumpy, did Terry stop cookingstroganoff for you or what???

cascadedad

Has nothing to do with it - one shot for my life i am taking a real bullet with equal amount of energy to a chuck of lead - because the real bullet will do more damage faster... Weight does not matter velocity and energy do... guess you missed that episode of myth busters...

For you if you believe that - that is the way it should be - but for me it is not - I can make that shot over and over without a lot of thought... do not hold me to your standards as i do not hold you to mine. There are differences - ask your brother or is your nephew - can not remember for sure.

I am not perfect but I am dam good with a rifle - but again the mistake is reduced with a bullet with a better trajectory and greater velocity. I go back to last years toe-head - there was no hestation in my mind at a 180 yard offhand shot at walking deer quartering to me... I had the bullet, the gun, and my abilities - It was a done deal... I realize I am getting older but I am still good at what I do when it comes to shooting a breakable/killable target - I admit I use to be better.

This ought to set you off a little more also... it is actually easier for me to shoot a moving target than it is a stationary target. I am much more confidient in the movement of the gun than trying to hold it on a definite spot for an extended period. Remember i do not shoot groups hunting - I shoot one shot.

i am grumpy... because some of you guys can not see the nose in front of your face and still believe what you hear instead of looking at the numbers. The conical is an old bullet that has been surpassed... the perfromance of the bullet is what should be judged not the hole size or even for that matter the amount of energy whether is it is in a ML or a Smokeless gun. All lead - especially soft lead bullets do not perform as well as a modern bullet... if they did there would be no discussion...

Question and I know this is off the board.... but do you kill tanks with a 50 cal regular bullet or a 50 cal soft lead conical?

Humor me, what is the heaviest 50cal conical you can shoot from your White, because they are the best conical shooter..? What would you estimate yourvelocity might be?