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And another state has done it right.....Minnesota

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And another state has done it right.....Minnesota

Old 10-15-2006, 08:29 AM
  #1  
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Default And another state has done it right.....Minnesota

This years ML season in MN prohibits the use of "Nitro or Smokelesss" powder ML firearms during the regular ML season.

As it should be...sounds like the citizens and wildlife department in Minn. have their heads screwed on straight...kudos to intelligent people making intelligent decisions.
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Old 10-15-2006, 08:52 AM
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Default RE: And another state has done it right.....Minnesota

Centerfire powders have no business inML seasonsanyways. Glad to read that. The same exists here in Michigan. Hopefully someday all 50 states agree.

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Old 10-15-2006, 09:38 AM
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Default RE: And another state has done it right.....Minnesota

Way to go Minnesota!
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Old 10-15-2006, 11:20 AM
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Default RE: And another state has done it right.....Minnesota

ORIGINAL: Triple Se7en

Centerfire powders have no business inML seasonsanyways. Glad to read that. The same exists here in Michigan. Hopefully someday all 50 states agree.
If that's the case you can get rid of every gunpowder known to man.

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/pellets/metallic.php
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/granular/t7cartridge.php

Further down is the cartridge data.
http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/loading.html'

Under the muzzleloader loads is the cartridge data.
http://www.magkor.com/bdata.html

And of course Blackpowder has been centerfire powder for over a hundred years. Blackpowder cartridge rifles ring a bell?
At the bottom:
http://www.goexpowder.com/load-chart.html

Basically every gunpowder ever made is suitable for use in centerfires. Maybe not all of the different cartridgesbut then there is no smokeless gunpowder suitable for everything either. I'm glad our legislators haven't drafted laws like that. No muzzleloader anywhere would be able to hunt legally.

ORIGINAL: roundball
This years ML season in MN prohibits the use of "Nitro or Smokelesss" powder ML firearms during the regular ML season.

As it should be...sounds like the citizens and wildlife department in Minn. have their heads screwed on straight...kudos to intelligent people making intelligent decisions.
Nice of them to limit their laws to blackpowder only. Pyrodex, Triple Seven, American pioneer, Black Mag, and every other replacement powderare smokeless powders, just not nitrocellulose based. And if the wording of the lawmentions"smokeless powder" as being illegal then technically they all are illegal also. That's pretty typical of legislators not knowing what they are doing. There's a law somewhere that say's "modern smokeless powder", Delaware I think, yet the BP subs I mentioned above are all "modern smokeless powders". The oldest one is pyrodex and that was invented in the 70's or 80's. Many nitrocellulose powders are older than that.
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Old 10-15-2006, 11:42 AM
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Default RE: And another state has done it right.....Minnesota


Let me first point out, the elimination of smokeless powder does not effect me in the least. I do not own nor intend to purchase a rifle capable of shooting smokeless powder. Also, it is my understanding that many of the "smokeless powder rifles" will shoot substitute powders equally as well and in some cases even better then most other muzzleloaders. I also support the right of each State to manage their hunting seasons through laws and regulation as they best see fit to benefit the sport and the overall experience.

With that said, I still find this new modificationunacceptable and even somewhat disturbing. Now granted I am basing this on the assumption that at one time smokeless powder was permitted in Minnesota during the muzzleloader season. If it were not, then this is a mute point and I apologize for the rant.

The disturbing part is that if prior use of smokeless powder was permitted, I really cringe to see the State of Minnesota "change their mind" if you will, and then ban the powder. What you are looking at is the State changing a past practice that once effected a hunters' experiencesin their State. When you see one side start changing past practices, it opens a whole Pandora's Box for future changes if the State so wishes.

We just had a posting by Roundball about some of the Toby Bridges opinions and views. I believe one of the opinions of Mr. Bridges was he suggestedan outlaw to use of round ball as a hunting projectile because of the ballistics and energy the projectile displays at set distances. The almost immediate outrage at this suggestion was apparent, of which I also was in agreement too. While Mr. Bridges supported his opinion with ballistics, most poster seemed to be willing to ignore the facts and base their stance on past practice and field resultsof the roundball. We saw a call to arms by some that muzzleloader hunters, traditional and inlines shootersas a whole, need to group together to see that these kind of changes can not be made.

Now we see the issue of smokeless powder being banned. While this does not effect, lets say for sake of argument with out statistical facts 95% of the muzzleloading population, I see posters more then willing to change this aspect of the law or past practice. Why, because they do not feel it is right and they don't like smokeless powder in their playing field, just as many traditional shooters hate the idea of inlines in general in their playing field. I guess the call to arms and the grouping of all to act as a voice for muzzleloaders is only important when it meets our personal agenda with some.

To end this rant, I support all of you and your passion of muzzleloaders. Your opinions are important as are your views. Again, while I do not have a need for smokeless powder, I would support any hunter that used smokeless powder in a muzzleloader, abiding by all other rules of that State. Especially where this use of smokeless powder was once considered a legal alternative. Now had smokeless powder been brought up as an alternative and was voted down by the State, fine.. not a problem or even an issue. State's rights and all. But I personally feel if you support one aspect of muzzleloading, then you support them all.
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Old 10-15-2006, 12:20 PM
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Default RE: And another state has done it right.....Minnesota

Although I'm not crazy about smokeless powder myself(I think the smoke makes the sport more fun/challenging) I'll go with cayugad on this one and say if it loads from the muzzle, it's a muzzleloader and all kinds of this sport should be respected.
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Old 10-15-2006, 12:56 PM
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Default RE: And another state has done it right.....Minnesota

ORIGINAL: Wolfhound76


If that's the case you can get rid of every gunpowder known to man.
Really unneccessary and not worthwhile to post all that stuff.

YOU KNOW exactly what I mean - when you read my reply. I don't need a twist of wordings here to identify the differences betweensmokeless powder and blackpowdersmokeless powder.

You wasted your valuable time posting all that. Rifles like the Savage ML-10 cross the line of this fine sport. That's why Wildlife/DNR agencies are finally opening up their eyes. Those Savages should only be allowed in centerfire zones. Keep them out of shotgun zones during regualr firearms seasons too.

Posters like Cayugad are ignoring the safety reasons when giving Savage ML-10 approval ratings. Why do you think Minnesota banned them Cayugad? Here's one of a few reasons! Because they seriously injured & killed people eating dinner in their kitchens of farmhouses too close to hunting areas where regular muzzleloaders and/or shotguns are allowed.

As folks are getting hurt and/or killed, stategaming boardsare counter-acting to the results. They remain legal in states - UNTIL MORE PEOPLE GET HURT OR DIE. I spent over an hour discussing this subject with a range officer at my nearest gun range. So if goofy Mr. Gander or Cascadedadwants to know where I get my info -- that's where.

Thankfully, Michigan never allowed the Savages right from the beginning of their inception.

I'm done here!
This is a very heated topic & I'm not in the mood to argue about this. If you want a Savage -- buy it! I couldcare-less.
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Old 10-15-2006, 01:15 PM
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Default RE: And another state has done it right.....Minnesota

ORIGINAL: Triple Se7en

ORIGINAL: Wolfhound76


If that's the case you can get rid of every gunpowder known to man.
Really unneccessary and not worthwhile to post all that stuff.

YOU KNOW exactly what I mean - when you read my reply. I don't need a twist of wordings here to identify the differences betweensmokeless powder and blackpowdersmokeless powder.

You wasted your valuable time posting all that. Rifles like the Savage ML-10 cross the line of this fine sport. That's why Wildlife/DNR agencies are finally opening up their eyes. Those Savages should only be allowed in centerfire zones. Keep them out of shotgun zones during regualr firearms seasons too.
So that's why theywere most recently legalized in Illinois and Virginia?

And yes I knew what you meant but I put it that way to prove a point. Legislators do stuff like that all the time. Making smokeless powders illegal makes all the subs illegal unless the further specify which smokeless powders. It's like the assault weapons ban they keep trying to push on us in Illinois. Not only would guns like the AK-47 be banned with that, 50 cal and larger muzzleloaders, shotguns guns 28 ga. and bigger, and every militaryweaponsupplier in state would have to leave Illinois to continue manufacturing the weapons for our military.

The point is that laws may be intended to mean one thing but litterally mean another. The second amendment is a good example. Depending on who you talk to it can mean 2 things. One that it is an individual right, another that it is a collective right.

That's why groups that try to legislate issues can have it backfire. Minnesota's new law depending on how it's written can eliminate all powders but blackpowder. It may not be intended that way, but a good prosecutor can make it stick. It also gives CO's another way toticket an otherwiselaw abiding hunter if they want to write tickets.

CO: "What powder you using?"
Hunter: "Triple seven."
CO: "Well I gotta write you a ticket. Triple seven is a smokeless powder according to the DOT which classifies these things."
Hunter: "But it's not smokeless powder!"
CO: "Yeah it is. The law bans smokeless powder and triple seven is classified as such by the DOT".


Edit because of your edit:

ORIGINAL: Triple Se7en
Posters like Cayugad are ignoring the safety reasons when giving Savage ML-10 approval ratings. Why do you think Minnesota banned them Cayugad? Here's one of a few reasons! Because they seriously injured & killed people eating dinner in their kitchens of farmhouses too close to hunting areas where regular muzzleloaders and/or shotguns are allowed.

As folks are getting hurt and/or killed, stategaming boardsare counter-acting to the results. They remain legal in states - UNTIL MORE PEOPLE GET HURT OR DIE. I spent over an hour discussing this subject with a range officer at my nearest gun range. So if goofy Mr. Gander or Cascadedadwants to know where I get my info -- that's where.

Thankfully, Michigan never allowed the Savages right from the beginning of their inception.

I'm done here!
This is a very heated topic & I'm not in the mood to argue about this. If you want a Savage -- buy it! I couldcare-less.
Please post the references for the injuries withinformation that they were caused bySmokeless muzzleloaders. This is the first I've heardof this.
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Old 10-15-2006, 01:51 PM
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Default RE: And another state has done it right.....Minnesota

Posters like Cayugad are ignoring the safety reasons when giving Savage ML-10 approval ratings. Why do you think Minnesota banned them Cayugad? Here's one of a few reasons! Because they seriously injured & killed people eating dinner in their kitchens of farmhouses too close to hunting areas where regular muzzleloaders and/or shotguns are allowed.
I'm ignoring nothing and shame on you for the insinuation. I could be just as safe a hunter, and you or anyone else should be as well,with a Savage shooting smokeless powder or a smoothbore and a roundball. If I felt or had any doubtfor one second that my shot was not safe, for any reason (like a farm house in the background)or posed a danger to someone, then it is my responsibility, no my obligation,to not take the shot. Not the responsibility of the State to change their minds on current law, and further regulate me.

Triple Se7en we agree on a lot of aspects of this sport but on this one, we are definitely on opposite ends of the fence. Now (as you stated)because some muzzleloading hunters did not use common sense andshot up some farm houses, you have to pick on one facet of the muzzleloading sport and declare it illegal? Is there absolute evidence that the smokeless powder rifles pose a larger threat to the population then other rifles? While I am sure they are flatter shooting then most rifles, that to me means you need to take more thought before you fire. You need to punish the hunter who ignored all safety rules, their common sense andtraining and committed the act.

Would a Thompson Center Omega shooting 150 grains of pellets with a 250 grain Shockwave not posed the same threat?How about a Knight Disc rifle with 150 grains and a copperBarnes? A .45 caliberKnight Disc Elite with 150 grains and some light weight projectile might push some impressive speeds. All of these mentioned are as dangerous in the hands of the stupid. Just as is a Savage or any other smokeless powder rifle, even a .22 caliber rifle for that matter. But you seem to agree thatits all right that the State wants to punish one aspect of a sport for the stupidity of a couple hunters... I disagree big time!!! The State would be better off to encourage Hunter Safety class requirement (which I think they do actually have) and more severe punishments to those hunters that do stupid things.

So what's next for Minnesota? Maybe they could ban or restrict the amount of powder a hunter can shoot out of their rifles? Maybe if we slow down the projectiles, the people will be safer. So what limit should we put on them? Or lets restrict the projectiles we can use? Limit the BC and demand only poor flight bullets can be used. Wouldn't that increase the public safety?

What I was trying to point out in my post is, you start changing things in one aspect and more changes just get that much more easy to make. The trouble is the more changes you allow made, the more toes you step on. The trouble is a lot of people do not get all that concerned until it is their toes being crunched.

Every hunter out there has the responsibility to hunt in a safe manner and know the boundaries and limitations of their rifle. While I am not trying to down play the seriousness of injury to any family and my condolences to them for their loss and hardship, I just refuse to point the finger at one small part, eliminate it, and then proclaim all is safe now.
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Old 10-15-2006, 02:09 PM
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Default RE: And another state has done it right.....Minnesota

ORIGINAL: cayugad
"...I am basing this on the assumption that at one time smokeless powder was permitted in Minnesota during the muzzleloader season..."
I thinkMinnesota is like allstates...they had implemented special traditionally oriented muzzleloading seasons like all the states did,using languagebased upon muzzleloading as it existed backin the50's/60's.

Language written in the spirit of what the ML seasons were intended to be...the use ofweapons that were regarded as primitive,as being generally in the form ofthose used back during the early American traditional muzzleloading era...of those that were obviously representative of the typical muzzleloader in wide spread use back then.

I think all states got caught by surpriseas the modern, non-traditional inline craze exploded whichgot around the originallanguagebecause when the original languagewas written, high performance modern inlines were not yet invented so naturallyno thought was given to more explicitly defining whatthe muzzleloading seasons and regs should be...it was obvious to everyone at the time.

Many stateshave since changed/expanded their regs with language that allows in"BP substitute powder" obviously focusing onequivalent performing substitutes like Pyrodex....but states are a little further along now in their thinking and the notion of also allowingmodern high performance smokeless powders in these seasonsseems to be simply too much of a slap in the face to wildlife departments and traditionally minded hunters...sosome of the states are now saying...and rightly so..."time out, this is gone too far".

AndI doubtany states have anything already on the booksregarding smokeless powder that they'd have to go back and change...they're simplystepping up to their responsibilities and declaring smokelessbanned before it gets too far along.

Personally...I repeat personally...I'd like to see every state restore muzzleloading seasons to their original intent and purpose...traditional muzzleloading...for thosehunters who choose to pick up the challenge andlearn to master sidelocks, real blackpowder, patched balls, open sights, etc.

PS: and there's not a rationalhuman being on the planet who can in good faith declare that those seasonswere established and intended for anything different than what I just outlined.
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