bigcountry

Thats right, now they have to really do it right and ban use of 777, pyrodex, and any other alternative to good ole blackpowder. then they might have thier head on close to being right.

Wolfhound76

I sent an email to Minnesota's DNR asking for specifics.

It depends on when they were established. I used to know a guy in Maine who always maintained that Maine's season wasn't established as a traditional season. I've heard Illinois was the same way but I don't know for sure. It really doesn't matter to me as I don't bother with the muzzleloader season.

Triple Se7en

Nowhere in my post did I memtion people being hurt or killed in Minnesota specifically. I simply alluded to people being hurt and/or killed in this country over astray gunshots during hunting seasons. The DNR ranger I spoke to said "odds are" when restictions like thesetake place, someone - perhaps plural, gets hurt and/or injured - thus resulting in a smaller, shorterdownrange bullet/firearm restriction. If I mislead anyone here to beilieve that I know what's going on in some other state 1500 miles away from Michigan, well you have a screw loose even thinking I ight have that sort of information. I don't have any insider scoop in the state I live in. Thinking I know what's happening in Minnesota is kind of funny. I never thought any poster here would even consider something like that. Kinda' surprises me how little common sense some folks have -- especially ML board administrators.

What do you think I have available at my fingertips Wolfhound?.... a synopsis on every gun injury or death in America? Are you insane or just stupid? I gave you one of plural reasons why this Minnesota restriction "probably" took place. By 'probably'... I mean "odds-are". According to this Ranger, shots fired is the #1 reason a restriction gets put in place after an extended time with no restrictions. I never said it was the the only or persuadingreason for the change in Minnesota.


Frankly... I don't care why they (Minnesota)changed their laws.... just happy about that they did.

cayugad

Roundball - (not to single you out)

While I agree that many States were blind sided by the advancement muzzleloaders and powders have made in the last twenty years, it still does not negate the fact that once you start removing and changinglaws which allowed hunters certain rights, such as Minnesota did, removing more of them become much easier in the future.

Further, relating to safety issues, any hunter entering the field to participate in a muzzleloading season needs to know their rifles and their personallimitations, whether it is a .50 caliber flintlock or a Savage ML-10 with smokeless powder. It is the responsibility of every hunter to conduct themselves at all times in a manner safe to themselves, other hunters, and the general public. Would you shoot your flintlock at a deer on the crest of a hill knowing full well that a farm house is in a somewhat direct path behind your point of aim? Of course not. Common sense tells you, if you missed that ball could well be a dangerous projectile further behind your intended target. Iffor sake of discussion took that shot, missed and struck the farm house. Who should we blame, the flintlock or the person who pulled the trigger without regard to their backstop? Of course, the shooter IMO. Just as I would not shoot across an open field with my Black Diamond XR loaded with 150 grains of powder and a Shockwave or a Savage ML-10, knowing there was a farm house behind the deer.

I know that many traditional muzzleloading enthusiasts like to point out that many States enacted muzzleloading season back before inline development arrived on the scene. We know this as fact.No arguement.Traditionalists are also quick to point out,the idea that this special season was for the pursuit of deer in a manner or spiritmuch like our forefathers would have encountered and with similar weapons. Again, no arguement. After all inlines were not even an issue at this time. Kind of hard to argue your position when you did not even exhist. I also applaud such States as Pennsylvania and others I am sure, which is their foresight enacted both a primitive and modern muzzleloader season.

While many traditionalists feel muzzleloader hunters should take the time and effort to learn the skills of their forefathers, master black powder, sidelocks, roundball, etc.. many people lack the time or the willingness to do so. Does this make them a bad person? Not really. Some arejust a busy person with out the time to master all the aspect of the traditional rifle sport. In other cases, many insurance companies do not allow the storage of black powder in the premise without special safety precautions in the home. Also some do not believe that the ballistics of the traditional rifle are humane to hunt with.

Inline rifles filled that nitch. They allowed people to enter the sport, in many cases for much less money. It allowed them to shoot something other then black powder that they could store in their homes. It offered them ballistics that they felt much more comfortable with in the pursuit of game animals. It offered them a cleaner alternative to black powder. It opened up the sport to much more then the person with the flintlock or sidelock rifle. Lets not also forget, inlines pumped billions of tax dollars into sporting programs and deparment of natural resources. It brought more people into a sport that was loosing more and more people each year to other interests. The addition of more people brought a stronger lobby for us to voice our opinions so governmental agencies can see things our way instead of the way of anti hunting organizations.

The problem is, inlines are here to stay. Just as synthetic and smokeless powders. Many States do not have the hunting time or resources to make sperate seasons based on rifle design. So in some cases the two kinds of rifles were grouped together. Some States to equal the playing field set restrictions like no optics, limited optics, limited projectles, ignition systems, even powders. Which I have no problem with. This allows everyone a chance to participate in the muzzleloader season. What I do have a problem with is when something is allowed in a State like Minnesota and then taken away. Again, smokeless powder does not effect me in any manner and I have no stock in Savage. But I will support my muzzleloading sport in any manner I personally feel important, just as I would expect you to do. I respect all people's views and opinions whether I agree with them or not.

Further, I have stated my views and like others on the board feel no more need to express myself anymore on this matter.

Wolfhound76

That's not what you said.

Your range officer needs to check what he's saying. That's like the guys at Ultimate Firearms telling people that Savages were blowing up everywhere. They changed their tunes after talking to the CEO of Savage.

That's the thing about rumors, they grow bigger every telling. Shame on you for repeating it without verifing it first. And shame on you forposting it like it was fact. That just hands the anti's ammunition to use against us all. Hunting is the safest sport, safer than football, basketball, etc.

The next case where someone with a smokeless muzzleloader kills someone accidently will be the first one I hear about. It may have happened already but I've never heard about it. I canremember allthe stories about ML's that I've heard taking a life. Most of the time it's death by stupidity, like using a lighter at the breech while looking in the muzzle, or a tragic accident like someone snapping a cap on a child only to find the gun was loaded. You want a cause, try stamping out stupidity. It's more abundant than hydrogen.

roundball

And I take no direct focus on you either Cayugad...just discussing a couple of points...and the one above is an excellent point.

That's why those hunters you're referring toare already blessed to have a regular firearms deer season available where they don't have to expend any extra energy or time to learn/prepare for anythingnew...they can just grab the same scoped high performance .30-06 rifle they used last year and go hunting, put it back in the rack when they're done...usually don't even have to clean it thanksto non-corrosive smokeless powder...millions of hunters live that scenarioevery year.

So it begs the question...why indeed then do these hunters you refer to...who don't have the time or willingness to learntraditional ways (your words, not mine) insist on hunting in the traditional seasons with as modern a looking / operating, big scoped high performance rifle that money can buy?

They're obviously not doing it in the traditional way, sothere can only be one answer:

"To take advantage of a specialdeer season to increase their odds of killing a deer...and again, doing so without putting forthany effort to learn and master anything.....just to sit there for an extra amount of time (time that they didn't have in the first place to learn traditional mind you)with a long range scopeand long range flat shooting modern high performance rifle that simply happens to load from the front so itgets themaround the old previously established language for traditional seasons".

From a selfish point of view, no matter what somebody elses uses isn't going to interfere one iota with my particular good fortune of havinggood deer densities,a good place to hunt them undisturbedwith myFlintlock & PRBs, and good odds of filling all sixtags every year.

But there are right and wrong aspectsofissues in all societies, and IMO, this is one of those issues, that's all I'm saying...

Triple Se7en

If my screen name here was Wolfhound and I clicked-on to read Triple Se7en's first reply, the first thing that would of came to my mind was that this is the internet & poster Triple Se7en must of missed either the word 'probably' or the words "odds-are" in his post.

After-all, there is no way- from the time poster Rounball started this thread to the time Triple Se7en replied, that he could of actually found the 1 or 2 Michigan DNRofficers/executives that know anything about Minnesota'snew restriction-- out of 5,000 to 10,000 DNR officers in the entire state.

Again, if I were Wolfhound, having my own ML messageboard that I own, would certainly know that poster Triple Se7en doesn't even have the proper Superman costumebetween poster Rounball's original thread opening and Triple Se7en's reply to actuallyknowwhat exactly the Savage restrictions are -let-alone this new Minnesota restriction isa "direct-most certain" result of a Savage deathin Minnesota.

Poster Wolfhound must think Triple Se7en has magical powers -- able to drive 200 miles roundtrip - have a one hour conversation while there(or) have the 1 or 2 Michigan DNR executive's personal phone number.... then actually think these 1 or 2 officers will tell Poster Triple Se7en exactly what happened there in Minnesota.

This is friggin hilarious! Grown-up men/administrators going thru messageboard motions - like that of a two year-old. An actual messageboard administrator that didn't have the common sense to reply by saying...
"Lets wait for poster Triple Se7en to come back online. I bet he accidently left out a word or two in his post". Instead, this board administrator replies with what's listed in his above post..... not even considering a typo might be involved.

Incredible! As a result, I will only reply to posts here at Hunting.netvia the personal message system from now on. I'll let all the two year-olds like cascadedad, Wolfhound and Frontier Gander teachthe ones that need ML helphere publically. I'll then correct their teaching mistakes thru the private messaging system here-only.

See Ya folks!

cayugad

Darn it roundball.. I said I was done, but in answer to your specific thought (which I admit has a lot of truth to it) If I may, let me break it down in parts;


[hr]


Lets first point out just the use of the inline makes it a non traditional hunt by definition of a traditional season. Whether they use scopes, sabots, or smokeless powder is a matter of regulation. And again we will agree that all the things you mention such as the big scopes and high performance projectiles, are not permitted in all states. Wisconsin is a non magnification and non smokeless powder state for example.

As for the best, that money can buy.. if spending money was the issue, we'd all be hunting with traditional rifles which by enlarge are much more expensive on average then some of the Spanish made rifles out there on the market in the inline racks that draw people into the sport. How many posts do you read where someone is asking advise wanting to enter the sport and they have a couple hundred dollars. Few traditional rifles could be suggested for that budget and still have the person shooting quickly.

Many I feel are using an inline which is more user friendly many claim. I personally do not agree with that, but then traditional rifles are not a mystery to me. I also think once they actually get into the experimentation of sabots and conicals, they scratch their heads at the simple patch and ball combination being so effective.

As for the ballistics aspect, yes I am sure many embrace the inline for that reason. There are some that just do not trust the power of the roundball. Of course if they evertook the time to experiment with the roundball they might well change their opinion on that. Still they hunt with what they feel more comfortable with.

So they look for cost, ease of learning, ease of cleaning (could be a time element), ignition specifics (again, traditional rifles are no less dependable) and better ballistics. I am sure when they took that direction the fact it is not traditional is not really a factor to them. Also I think it will lead some to the traditional side sooner or later.

Of course they want to take advantage of a special season (if muzzleloading season is a real advantage). Who does not want more time in the woods. When I was working full time, we had people that flooded the modern deer season with vacation draws based on seniority,leaving the rest of us to fill in the gap working all season. I never cared because I always took the muzzleloading season off. I liked the idea I could hunt with less people to worry about in the woods, fill my freezer at the same time, and I never minded that I was not allowed to use a scope or had access to the long range ballistics. If I could not see it, I could not shoot it. Even if I could use a scope, it would have given me more time to be in the woods, fill my freezer and enjoy the outdoors. I guess anyone would desire additional time in the woods. They just want to use a rifle different from yours. Not sharing your values do not make them wrong, just different.

I will not argue that a scoped inline rifle does not have some real effective range to them.Too many posts of 200 yard shots are written. But again, that takes practice and working up a load. What would happen if a person scoped say a Lyman Great Plain Hunter and shot conicals. What would be the effective range of that rifle? Where scopes are legal, are not scopes an option for the traditional shooter as well? Could they not mount a scope on a traditional rifle?I have never done it, but have thought about it a lot.

I was talking to a group of traditional hunters here in my neck of the woods. We got on the topic of inlines. Their disgust at the inlines were based on a lot of things. They did not like the idea that the inlines could shoot further then their traditional rifles. I pointed out that was not really true. That because of the no scope rule, they had no more advantage then a Hawkins. Also, if they scoped a traditional, it might surprise them how far they could shoot accurately. It all boiled down to practice time. It was also mentioned, they did not like the inline hunters taking over their season andhunting areas. I then asked them, if these inline people all used traditional rifles, then would everyonebe happy with them being in the woods? They said of course not. They would be upset. They liked the woods all to themselves. To me that was not a dislike of inlines, that was just a true selfish nature of them coming through in reality. They did not like the competition. They wanted the woods all to themselves. So to me it was not the inline that they disliked but the opportunity it gave others to join in the sport at their special time of the year.

I personally never saw hunting as a competition. I saw it as a time when I could be in the woods and just enjoy more time outside. Maybe that's why inlines, scope, pellets, sabotsand smokeless powder just don't upset me. I do not care what anyone hunts with as long as they hunt responsible. But this is getting off topic and a discussion about the virtues of inline VS traditional rifles never solved anything. It could lead to hard feelings and I even saw it split up a different forum once. So I end all of this here!!

Chris W.

roundball

Cayugad...you and I have had good communications for a couple years now and this is no different...but remember, I made a simple post about Minnesota having established some regs that would not allow modern smokeless powder to be used in their traditional ML season...andyour reponse really went pretty wide, bringingthe full gamet of muzzleloading related things into discussion and I responded.....so "darn", I'm good with it for tonightif you are...