You really don't seem to have anyclue of the pont I wanted to make. We do not need to come to any understanding except to agree to disagree.I have never tried to bully you into anything but have only stated how my opinion differs from yours. There is a difference between stating facts and opinions.
But you have strongly inferred it
Again, these are all opinions.By your own admission, you have onlyshot one deer, with one roundball and made a bad shot. Based on this experience, and with no knowledge of where and how I, and other users of roundballs, hunt, or what loads or rifles we use, you claim to be able to tell us the "facts". As I said before, none of your indicators mean squat in actual field use to those of us who know how to hunt with roundballs. Practical experience means much more than any other "indicators".
I would never expect someone to form their own opinions and maketheir choices based on my opinions or anything anyone would say in a public forum, such as this. This is where we seem to differ.If a person decides to hunt with roundballs, they must make that decision based on their own knowledge, dedication and skill. I can only offer personal opinions, based on personal experience, and would never be so presumptuous to claim my opinions are facts.

I will bow out of this because I've alreadymade my point as well as I can and it serves no purpose to continue this. It is unfortunate that you feel any disagreement with your position is "bullying" but your owndisagreement withother's positionsshould be considered as fact and accepted without question.

[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: Pglasgow]
Again I have never said roundballs were inneffective.
[/blockquote]

Sabinajiles responded,

But you have strongly inferred it


But it is not possible for me to infer any thing. Inferring is what you are doing. All projectiles have their limitations. Noting that the roundball is the most limited (most inferior) is not claiming that the round ball is ineffective. I never said that and I never meant to imply that. Inferring that those are my intentions is your error.



[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: Pglasgow]
I did say that roundballs are inferior to the other choices. I stand by that. I followed with several more posts which included statementsthat pointed out just how roundballs are inferior to other projectiles in the physical attributes the indicatea projectiles capabability for killing game. Fact is, the roundball finishes last in all these attributes.[/blockquote]


Sabinajiles responds:

Again these are all opinions.By your own admission, you have onlyshot one deer, with one roundball and made a bad shot. Based on this experience, and with no knowledge of where and how I, and other users of roundballs, hunt, or what loads or rifles we use, you claim to be able to tell us the "facts". As I said before, none of your indicators mean squat in actual field use to those of us who know how to hunt with roundballs.

All I have said is the "facts" limit the roundball. Lower sectional density, lower momentum, lower energy, Lower ballistic coefficient are the facts. These are not my opinions. All one has to do is plug them into a ballistics program and see whatone should expect from a roundball. And this expectation _has_ a basis in facts. A logical, scientific way to judge how onemay ethically use the roundball.

It is impossible to reason with anyone whose opinion is these indicators mean, how did say it, squat. So I'm not reasoning with you.

You seem to think you are some kind of muzzleloading god who can impart something to the roundball which it normally would notpossess on its own. I've got news fer ya, you can't do that,a hunter can only limit the best aprojectile can do.

[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: Pglasgow]
Having30 years of experience with the roundball, one would think that you could offer some guidelines on range, shot placement, and so on describing the limitations one must hunt with in orderto hunt ethically with a roundball. I would think they would have at least some scientific basis in fact instead being anecdotally supported.
I think if you did that. Youmay find I supported those guidelines and agree thatthis use of theroundball isethical and effective.
[/blockquote]

Sabinajiles,

I would never expect someone to form their own opinions and maketheir choices based on my opinions or anything anyone would say in a public forum, such as this. This is where we seem to differ.If a person decides to hunt with roundballs, they must make that decision based on their own knowledge, dedication and skill. I can only offer personal opinions, based on personal experience, and would never be so presumptuous to claim my opinions are facts.

I will bow out of this because I've alreadymade my point as well as I can and it serves no purpose to continue this.

I'm not surprised you bowed out. But I really wish someone would describe what ethical use of the round ball actually is. I think it would serve an important purpose.

Happy Hunting, Phil

sabinajiles

Jees! I hate to get into this and any wise man wouldn't, but now you know something about me; because here goes.

I agree with this statement (and that is all it is a statement) and I think most of the rest of the world does too; but that doesn't make the RB a bad projectile. It is a very simple statement and it accurate. The minnie would have never had been invented if the RB was the state of the art. Nobody would have improved on the minmie if it were the best. Ships would still be shooting balls if they were the state of the art. Time changes everything. The projectile that I now believe is the best projectile out there will be insignificant in 60 years. When I read his statement that is what I read into his statement I have no other agenda. As a history teacher I see change through history all the time - not to say that all change is good and conversly not all change is bad. Technology does not stand still - and I really sometimes wish it would. We as individualscan accept technology or wecan stand still.

Pglasgow does not like my sabots I really am not interested in his heavy coniclas at the moment - and I am not going to call him on the carpet for suggesting it.

I personally do not agree with everthing I have read from Pglasgow, but so what? I take from him what I can use and ignore what I can not use. To start a controversy over an uncontrollable point is not worth it.

I myself, at this point would not hunt with a RB - I would be doing the sport of hunting a disfavor and I would be doing the animal kingdom a disfavor. I am not qualified to hunt with a RB. I also at this point would not hunt with a heavy conical for the same reasons.I, also. would not hunt with a PowerBelt becuse I do not trust them to do what I need done and that applies to RB's and heavy conicals. Not that they can't do the job but I do not have the confidence in thoseprojectiles.

I don't agree with cayugad all the time either but I certainly am not going to put a private disagreement outthere in the public forum and cause a public controversy.

This board has almost been controversy free all the time I have been here let's keep it that way that is the beauty of this board.We all will never agree totally on everything accept that and move on.

sabinajiles, your point was made very well and appropriately in your first post requarding this subject and backed up by cayugad - I didn't totally agree with either of you but it certainly did not stimulate me to continue whipping the same post.

Let's stop now before it gets out of hand as it has on so many other boards. All of this has nothing to do with the title of the post.

As I have said before I am a school teacher and a coach - I am not a politician nor am I a writer - nothing that I have tried to say here do I mean to upset anyone - we each have or own passions and they do not necessarily need to be shared by all.

Let's all move on, please

sorry about the length

My apologies for my part in this thread. I had no intent to turn it into any controversy and could see it was getting out of hand, which is why I left it.However, I don'tbelievethe patched roundball can be summarily dismissed as a hunting projectile by claiming it is an inferior projectile. Iwould be happy to rationally discuss the merits and shortcomings of the patched roundball in a seperate thread, if anyone is interested.

Sabotloader,

You are correct. I will notrespond any more on it. Though I may, in a different post, post some roundball ballistics. I promise I won't in this post inject any opinions on what the maximum range is or what the minimum energy should be. As hunters, most of us know what the "generally accepted opinions" are. But such a post may be helpful for others to form their own opinions on how they will use the roundball within a framework they consider ethical.

Happy Hunting, Phil