Turkeyhunter1

I would go out on this limb and say - no-one should suffer from plastic fouling these days if your barrel is treated correctly and you are using the new polymere sabots..

I have been shooting my A&H four 6 years now and have never had a plastic fouling problem. I shoot t7 and suffer very little powder fouling. If you shoot shot guns and you use chokes you know you get plastic fouling there from the wads - I do too, but very little today. I shot 225 shots yesterday at the trap club - the choke is not fouled enough to even bother cleaning. Plastic fouling can be beat.

Cayugad wrote:

"I disagree with you Phil on your belief of the roundball as being an inferior projectile"

I am surprised, very surprised, to see this. The last time I saw you comment on the round ball you wrote that there was a need to get "close enough and to put it in the right spot". I took that to mean that one must get closer and be more particular about the placement of the shot than one must be with a full bore conical or saboted bullet. I know that you meant that and that you wouldnever condone pinging a whitetail at 100 yards with .50 cal roundball possessing 450 ft-lbs energy.

I know you would never suggest that a round ball was just as good as any otherprojectile in regards to the energy it gets out of charge, how it retains energy down range,its secitional density,or its ability to pentrate game. We both know thatthe roundballneeds special consideration because of what it lacks in these departments. Wouldn't you agree?

I honestly apologizeas my statements about the roundball have offended you and some others. They were not directed youor anyone who uses the roundball but at the roundball itself.

Happy Hunting, Phil

I shot a small buck, this year, using a 345 gr. Aerotip. I used 115 grs. of fff/triple 7. First let me say it killed the deer, with a chest shot, with about a 25 yd. run. That said, I would not use one again. There was about a 2 1/2" entrance hole. The bullet literly exploded, leaving pieces all over the place, didn't even leave a mark on the opposite side. I cant help wonder what would have happened if I would have hit the shoulder (nothing good). Good hunting

[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: Pglasgow

We have two choices in Muzzeloading as I see it.

1. Heavy, powerful, looping full bore conicals

2. Lighter, smaller thanbore, flatter shooting saboted projectiles.
[/blockquote]

Sabinajiles wrote:

Now, as far as I, and many others,are concerned, using traditional rifles, propellants and projectiles is still classified as muzzleloading and whether you you use roundballs, or not, it is still a choice for some.

That, it most certainly is. I should have said "I have two choices". I really do mean that.

WhereI hunt, being responsible with a roundballmeanspassing onalmost every opportunityI would havehad if Ihad just pickeda better projectile.

I know of no measurable attribute related to a projectiles effectiveness in killing deer that a roundball has over any other choice in projectile. EG

1. Sectional Density

2. Ballistic Co-efficient

3. Momentum from a given charge

4. Energy from a given charge

Furthermore,I never once said the roundball was ineffective. That is something I would never say without qualifying the statement.I have learned that I will never say that it is inferior in sectional density, ballistic coefficient, momentum, energy, and range to other projectiles. Or I will offend someone who feels they are not. I really don't want to offend you. The strange thing is, we aren't laughing about how silly all this really is. One would think that it would be impossible to offend someone by saying something about a chunk of lead, or in this case, for failing to say anything about it?

Happy Hunting, Phil

I think I agree! I dont like these smaller than bore sabots. I am GLAD my state doese not allow them.

First off.. no apology necessary. I understand what you were trying to express and took no offence. I was only wishing to point out that a roundball should never be sold short. I'd never argue the ballistics of a roundball compared to say a SST. All different there.

One does need to get closer with a round ball per say a XTP or SST. But the round ball still has excellent killing powder even at extreme limits of its range. And you're correct shot placement is critical, but no more critical then with a conical or sabot projectile. If you don't put the projectile in the right spot it can not do the job. That's why no one just simply shoots for a deer, instead they pick an area or a spot on the deer, no matter what the projectile.

As for the 100 yard mark and a .50 caliber I have a friend that has taken three whitetail at that distance with open sights and a roundball. One of them dropped in their tracks, the other two made but a short distance. My longest with a .50 caliber roundball is about 60 yards. I normally hunt with a .54 caliber or bigger when shooting roundball. I felt he was on the very edge of his range, although we practice to that distance all the time. With a couple of my rifles I can consistently place a roundball in the bottom lid of a #3 pound coffee can nailed to a stake stuck out in the snow. (well I did 10 for 10 one day which I was very happy with) Would I shoot out to 100 yards on a whitetail with a roundball? If it was a standing broadside shot, and I had a good rest, with no cross wind. You would hear me shoot. Any further, and I would let it go.

My furthest with a roundball has been 80 yards to the target and then another 15-20 feet after that to the second target. I had the misfortune of shooting a deer with a .54 caliber roundball and 80 grains of Pyrodex RS once at approximately 80 yards (according to the owner of the land. I felt it more like 70 yards). The ball passed through that deer knocking it deadflat. The ball went further striking a second deer and knocking that one down also, with a broken spine. The ball still had enough power to sever the spine of the second deer but was lodged against the skin next to the spine. I finished that deer off with a knife. So penetration is possible with roundballs. I also had plenty of tags to cover my mistake.

A poster on a different forum I read about, shot a moose with a .54 caliber roundball and 90 grains of Pyrodex killing it. I do not recall how far the moose went after being hit. But I do recall the fact the moose was 160 yards away. So a roundball will penetrate. Would I condone such a shot.. never. In my opinion too far. Was this shooter lucky? I would say yes. I do not know this person personally but have no reason to doubt them.

So yes, one should get as close as possible to their game if hunting with a roundball. Of course I do that with any projectile I hunt with. I try to limit my shots with roundball to 100 yards. I never did put a lot of faith in numbers or foot pounds of energy. I stress shot placement and let the ball do the rest. I still hunt with roundball from time to time although I am determined to get deer with a number of different projectiles. Since roundball and conicals are low on the list, I have been hunting with XTPs, SSTs, Expanders, Powerbelts, and No Excuse Conicals. Now if just the deer would cooperate a little more.

I'm one of these people that say, hunt with what you like. As long as you know the limits of the weapon and it is legal to hunt with it, then have fun and be safe...

I would be curious how the roundball comes out when using the Taylor index: http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm I would contend that looking at 450 ft/lbs is a very poor way to evaluate the "knock down power" of a slow moving lead projectile. However, I don't know the ballistics of a round ball, so I can't plug it into the Taylor formula. Anyone else got the numbers?

Cayugad wrote:

First off.. no apology necessary. . .

I appreciate your comments very much. I may be more critical of the roundball than it deserves. I hunted with roundball when I first hunted blackpowder. The previous year I took a spike buck with a 25-06. That Christmas my father got me a T/C hawken .50 caliber kit and said if it was ever going to get together I would have to do it. I was 15 at the time and my Dad gave me guidance but he did not once do any of the work. He wanted it to be all my effort. Over the course of the next two months I built it and then I finally got it prepared to the point where he thought i should blue it.

As the weather warmed in March, we began shooting and I became proficient with it at 50 yards. My told me I shouldn't shoot beyond that distance with it at deer. All Summer we had a great time shooting and planning our hunt that fall. We were also going to hunt rifle season, but I just wanted to hunt with my Hawken even during rifle season.

I would like to say that I love everything about hunting. The time outdoors, time with my father, planning , hunting , shooting , gutting , dragging, skinning, cutting up the meat, and cooking it. I love the whole experience. I have had only one _bad_ experience while hunting and it happened that first season, hunting with a round-ball.

My dad set me at a stand and began moving on to his stand location. On his way, he spooked up a little fork buck. As luck would have itwas runningstraight for my location. He hollered.I stood, cocked my rifle, shaking. I could see him coming, shouldered the rifle and as he run by i swung my rifle sighting as best I could. From less than 20 feet my bullet entered just below his spine in the lung area. If i got the lungs, I clipped the top of them but the round ball shocked his spine rendering his hind legs useless.

It was a pitiful heart wrenching sight as the deer struggled with his front legs to get back up, hindlegs useless. Meanwhile, I frantically tried to reload my rifle, shaking and unable to stay focused on reloading as i kept looking back at the deer struggling. Meanwhile my Dad is running full tilt to get back. Before I could reload, the deer regained the use of its hind legs and bounded off. There is alot of open prairie where we hunted and I could see him bounding off like he never was hit over a 1/2 mile away.

I looked for two days, with my bird dog in tow, but I never found that buck. It happens to be the only shot I've taken that didn't ultimately result in a kill. It was very disturbing to me and we didn't hunt the rest of muzzleloading season. My father later said that he feared I would not hunt rifle that season.

A few months later, we discussed this experience with one of Dad's friends, and he, admonished my Dad for hunting with roundballs, saying that had we used a maxiball, the deer wouldn't have got up. He was a reloader and he described the ballistics to us.We bought a maxiball mold, which I still have and harvested some whitetails infuture hunts without incident.

Even today, I can say, without question, thatwounding and loosing that buckis the only bad experience I have ever had while hunting. A maxiball may not have made any difference, i realize this but even so. Itwould have improved the chances.

I suspect, that literally "everyone" who extensively hunts with round ball has wounded and not recovered at least one if not more whitetails. Granted, such an experience changes the way one hunts. He is more careful. I know, for me, I will never take another shot on a running deer, even if it is only 6 yards away, muzzleloader or not.

Hunting with roundball may be more sport and 500 ft-lbs may be all it takes to kill a whitetail when put in the right spot. Ifpeople enjoy it, who am I to critisize? Indeed, I have never critisized anyone for hunting with a roundball and I won't begin now. Even so, I won't encourage anyone to do it and I certainly think that anyone who is new to the sport should have a complete understanding of the roundball's limitations and capabilities if he chooses to hunt with them.

I really do hope that everyone understands that I was just making what I believe to be factual statements regarding the roundball. I am not wanting or trying to offend anyone, though I do understand how one can take offense to my statements of the roundball or in this thread, my exclusion of the roundball as a choice for hunting.

Again, I appreciate your response.

Happy Hunting, Phil

txhunter wrote:

I would be curious how the roundball comes out when using the Taylor index: http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm I would contend that looking at 450 ft/lbs is a very poor way to evaluate the "knock down power" of a slow moving lead projectile. However, I don't know the ballistics of a round ball, so I can't plug it into the Taylor formula. Anyone else got the numbers?

If someone who has clocked their roundball hunting load will post their muzzle velocity, I will post the ballistics for you.

It is funny that you mention the Taylor index. There is a measure I recently read about called kinetic pulse. One can read about it here http://www.xmission.com/~fractil/math/kp.html. Basically, the theory states that the volume of wound channel is a function of momentum AND energy being proportional to the product of both these measures. He equates a projectiles killing power as being directly measured by the volume of the wound channel. The theorist performed tests by shooting projectiles into a moist clay lake bed near Salt Lake City. By filling the cavities with water and measuring the quantity of water it takes to fill the cavities he empirically determined the mathematical relationship.

While it may not have been the best laboratory, I do respect the fact that he has attempted to follow scientific method in drawing his conclusions. If nothing else, it is a very good and interesting read. I encourage everyone to read it.

Happy Hunting, Phil

This was the final product found on the second deer under the skin.

Actually Pglasgow.. I commend you for looking for a different projectile when you no longer had faith in the one you were using. There is nothing wrong with looking for something bigger and better. If you did not feel the round ball adaquate then you should have looked somewhere else for something you did feel would get the job done. Many people use a projectile that they have bad experiences with only because it is an easy thing to do. You on the other hand looked to a different way to use the rifle. I see nothing wrong with that at all.

I personally have never had a deer get away on a roundball. I am also very fussy about the shots I take. Like you, I do not like running shots, and avoid them. Walking shots I have done. Once I made a shot at one that was not running but not walking.. I am sure you know the speed I am talking about. Its when the deer is nervous and wants to move from the area, but something in them also makes them want to look around. They almost glide. Well she glided too close to my tree stand on the last day of the season.

I carry that expaned roundball in my possible bag. My new favorite is the .58 caliber roundball. Also I shoot a .62 caliber roundball along with about 20 different sabot projectile combinations out of my inlines. I just like to shoot....