The misuse of Powerbelts
01-09-2006 | 10:51 PM
#31
Thread Starter
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,470
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From:
RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
cayugad wrote,
"I carry that expaned roundball in my possible bag. My new favorite is the .58 caliber roundball. Also I shoot a .62 caliber roundball along with about 20 different sabot projectile combinations out of my inlines. I just like to shoot...."
Itoccurs to me that.58 and .62 are much better than my .50 when shooting roundball.
and cayugad said:
"I personally have never had a deer get away on a roundball. I am also very fussy about the shots I take. Like you, I do not like running shots, and avoid them."
Believe me. It is a shot I wish I could take back. I am glad you have never lost a deer to roundball.
Happy Hunting, Phil
"I carry that expaned roundball in my possible bag. My new favorite is the .58 caliber roundball. Also I shoot a .62 caliber roundball along with about 20 different sabot projectile combinations out of my inlines. I just like to shoot...."
Itoccurs to me that.58 and .62 are much better than my .50 when shooting roundball.
and cayugad said:
"I personally have never had a deer get away on a roundball. I am also very fussy about the shots I take. Like you, I do not like running shots, and avoid them."
Believe me. It is a shot I wish I could take back. I am glad you have never lost a deer to roundball.
Happy Hunting, Phil
01-10-2006 | 05:43 AM
#32
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,706
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From: Delhi, NY (by way of Chenango Forks)
RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
ORIGINAL: Roskoe
If you remove the plastic skirt, a powerbelt bullet will drop down the barrel of most muzzleloaders.
If you remove the plastic skirt, a powerbelt bullet will drop down the barrel of most muzzleloaders.
01-10-2006 | 06:37 AM
#33
Fork Horn
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 102
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From:
RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
ORIGINAL: Pglasgow
Even today, I can say, without question, thatwounding and loosing that buckis the only bad experience I have ever had while hunting. A maxiball may not have made any difference, i realize this but even so. Itwould have improved the chances.
I suspect, that literally "everyone" who extensively hunts with round ball has wounded and not recovered at least one if not more whitetails. Granted, such an experience changes the way one hunts. He is more careful. I know, for me, I will never take another shot on a running deer, even if it is only 6 yards away, muzzleloader or not.
Hunting with roundball may be more sport and 500 ft-lbs may be all it takes to kill a whitetail when put in the right spot. Ifpeople enjoy it, who am I to critisize? Indeed, I have never critisized anyone for hunting with a roundball and I won't begin now. Even so, I won't encourage anyone to do it and I certainly think that anyone who is new to the sport should have a complete understanding of the roundball's limitations and capabilities if he chooses to hunt with them.
I really do hope that everyone understands that I was just making what I believe to be factual statements regarding the roundball. I am not wanting or trying to offend anyone, though I do understand how one can take offense to my statements of the roundball or in this thread, my exclusion of the roundball as a choice for hunting.
Even today, I can say, without question, thatwounding and loosing that buckis the only bad experience I have ever had while hunting. A maxiball may not have made any difference, i realize this but even so. Itwould have improved the chances.
I suspect, that literally "everyone" who extensively hunts with round ball has wounded and not recovered at least one if not more whitetails. Granted, such an experience changes the way one hunts. He is more careful. I know, for me, I will never take another shot on a running deer, even if it is only 6 yards away, muzzleloader or not.
Hunting with roundball may be more sport and 500 ft-lbs may be all it takes to kill a whitetail when put in the right spot. Ifpeople enjoy it, who am I to critisize? Indeed, I have never critisized anyone for hunting with a roundball and I won't begin now. Even so, I won't encourage anyone to do it and I certainly think that anyone who is new to the sport should have a complete understanding of the roundball's limitations and capabilities if he chooses to hunt with them.
I really do hope that everyone understands that I was just making what I believe to be factual statements regarding the roundball. I am not wanting or trying to offend anyone, though I do understand how one can take offense to my statements of the roundball or in this thread, my exclusion of the roundball as a choice for hunting.
All your latest story illustrates to me is that a young boy, in the heat of an adrenaline filled moment, made abad decision to take an ill advised shot at a deer and then made a poor shot and didn't recover the deer. IMO, it has not one thing to do with the effectiveness of the roundball. A bad shot is a bad shot, period. Let's be perfectly honest. A whitetail deer is not a particularly tough animal to kill and a shot with any projectile that is placed through both lungs will cause it to die in 10-15 seconds.
In over 30 years of deer hunting, I have never lost a deer I have shot with a roundball and I have taken more than a few. I have never had a deer shot with a roundball go more than 75 yds, with themajority of them going down much sooner and many dropping in their tracks. This doesn't make me a super hunter or a super lucky one. It means I understand the limitations of my equipment, and my abilities, and keep within them.
Every projectile has limitations and, IMO, it is pointless to argue about them. None ofthe charts, measurementsand anecdotalevidence mean squat to the guy out hunting, using what works for him. I assume that each of us use what we do because we understand the limitations of our equipment, and ourselves, and are willing to stay within them. To do otherwise is not only unwise, it is unethical.
01-10-2006 | 11:53 AM
#34
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,270
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From: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
ORIGINAL: Pglasgow
I've been thinking. And the more I think about the more I get and understand sabotloader's soapbox in his thread "Another powderbelt question"
There seems to be alot of people using powerbelts who want the flat trajectory they get by propelling lighter bullets at higher velocity. They seem to be using powerbelts instead of saboted projectiles because of difficulties loading sabots.
THIS IS A VERY BAD THING TO DO.
We have two choices in Muzzeloading as I see it.
1. Heavy, powerful, looping full bore conicals
2. Lighter, smaller thanbore, flatter shooting saboted projectiles.
There is NO place for light hollowpoint full-bore conicals in our sport. We are in a sport where the sport is harvesting game, not wounding it. Putting a gas check on the back of a underweighted full bore conical does not make the sabot obsolete, no matter what we've been told. It actually makes me angry when I think too much about it.
If anyone is having trouble with loading sabots and a fast flat shooting bullet is what you are after, do confer with sabotloader and exhaust all resources with sabots. If you fail, PLEASE, bite the bullet and learn to shoot heavy conicals.
Happy Hunting, Phil
I've been thinking. And the more I think about the more I get and understand sabotloader's soapbox in his thread "Another powderbelt question"
There seems to be alot of people using powerbelts who want the flat trajectory they get by propelling lighter bullets at higher velocity. They seem to be using powerbelts instead of saboted projectiles because of difficulties loading sabots.
THIS IS A VERY BAD THING TO DO.
We have two choices in Muzzeloading as I see it.
1. Heavy, powerful, looping full bore conicals
2. Lighter, smaller thanbore, flatter shooting saboted projectiles.
There is NO place for light hollowpoint full-bore conicals in our sport. We are in a sport where the sport is harvesting game, not wounding it. Putting a gas check on the back of a underweighted full bore conical does not make the sabot obsolete, no matter what we've been told. It actually makes me angry when I think too much about it.
If anyone is having trouble with loading sabots and a fast flat shooting bullet is what you are after, do confer with sabotloader and exhaust all resources with sabots. If you fail, PLEASE, bite the bullet and learn to shoot heavy conicals.
Happy Hunting, Phil
01-10-2006 | 12:51 PM
#35
Thread Starter
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,470
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From:
RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
sabinajiles,
We are gonna have to come to an understanding. I am as passionate about roundballs not being a choice for me as you are about bullying me into recanting my position. Just give up on it. I have a right to my opinion and I have a right to speak factually.
sabinajiles wrote:
However, you then replied that your intent was not to suggest that roundballs weren't a choice for anyone but just for you and you would never suggest they were ineffective projectilesfor harvesting deer. Yet, you have now followed with several more posts where you do just that.
Again I have never said roundballs were inneffective. I did say that roundballs are inferior to the other choices. I stand by that. I followed with several more posts which included statementsthat pointed out just how roundballs are inferior to other projectiles in the physical attributes the indicatea projectiles capabability for killing game. Fact is, the roundball finishes last in all these attributes. I know this to be true and I wont recant that it is true.
Sabinajiles goes on to say.
In over 30 years of deer hunting, I have never lost a deer I have shot with a roundball and I have taken more than a few. I have never had a deer shot with a roundball go more than 75 yds, with themajority of them going down much sooner and many dropping in their tracks. This doesn't make me a super hunter or a super lucky one. It means I understand the limitations of my equipment, and my abilities, and keep within them.
Every projectile has limitations and, IMO, it is pointless to argue about them. None ofthe charts, measurementsand anecdotalevidence mean squat to the guy out hunting, using what works for him. I assume that each of us use what we do because we understand the limitations of our equipment, and ourselves, and are willing to stay within them. To do otherwise is not only unwise, it is unethical.
Look sabinajiles, I'm not going question any thing you said here. I am going to point out something. There is nothing in your statement which gives anyone any idea what the proper use a roundball is. What its limititations are. Its like you are giving a lesson in ethics without giving the ethics.
Having30 years of experience with the roundball, one would think that you could offer some guidelines on range, shot placement, and so on describing the limitations one must hunt with in orderto hunt ethically with a roundball. I would think they would have at least some scientific basis in fact instead being anecdotally supported.
I think if you did that. Youmay find I supported those guidelines and agree thatthis use of theroundball isethical and effective.
Happy Hunting, Phil
We are gonna have to come to an understanding. I am as passionate about roundballs not being a choice for me as you are about bullying me into recanting my position. Just give up on it. I have a right to my opinion and I have a right to speak factually.
sabinajiles wrote:
However, you then replied that your intent was not to suggest that roundballs weren't a choice for anyone but just for you and you would never suggest they were ineffective projectilesfor harvesting deer. Yet, you have now followed with several more posts where you do just that.
Again I have never said roundballs were inneffective. I did say that roundballs are inferior to the other choices. I stand by that. I followed with several more posts which included statementsthat pointed out just how roundballs are inferior to other projectiles in the physical attributes the indicatea projectiles capabability for killing game. Fact is, the roundball finishes last in all these attributes. I know this to be true and I wont recant that it is true.
Sabinajiles goes on to say.
In over 30 years of deer hunting, I have never lost a deer I have shot with a roundball and I have taken more than a few. I have never had a deer shot with a roundball go more than 75 yds, with themajority of them going down much sooner and many dropping in their tracks. This doesn't make me a super hunter or a super lucky one. It means I understand the limitations of my equipment, and my abilities, and keep within them.
Every projectile has limitations and, IMO, it is pointless to argue about them. None ofthe charts, measurementsand anecdotalevidence mean squat to the guy out hunting, using what works for him. I assume that each of us use what we do because we understand the limitations of our equipment, and ourselves, and are willing to stay within them. To do otherwise is not only unwise, it is unethical.
Look sabinajiles, I'm not going question any thing you said here. I am going to point out something. There is nothing in your statement which gives anyone any idea what the proper use a roundball is. What its limititations are. Its like you are giving a lesson in ethics without giving the ethics.
Having30 years of experience with the roundball, one would think that you could offer some guidelines on range, shot placement, and so on describing the limitations one must hunt with in orderto hunt ethically with a roundball. I would think they would have at least some scientific basis in fact instead being anecdotally supported.
I think if you did that. Youmay find I supported those guidelines and agree thatthis use of theroundball isethical and effective.
Happy Hunting, Phil
01-10-2006 | 01:04 PM
#36
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,195
Likes: 0
From: PA.
RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
hello, i like roundballs also, and used them here in pa. back from 1968 to around 1980. shot a lot of bucks in that time with them . do i like them now for deer, yes, but dont use them. i feel i get better groups at lower powder with the maxi-ball or powerbelts for DEER. most roundballs you should shoot a higher powder charge to get velocity etc. my best groups with roundball were 75 grs of 2f but hunting i used 100 grs and groups were not good but more power to send roundball to deer. i did not like kick also.look at roundball,i think he shoots 90 grs of 3f with his round balls on deer, thats around 105 for me on 2f.wow, what a kicking machine, not me anymore. i like shooting like i am holding a .22 cal, ha. also the maxi/powerbelts are much easy to load at 10 above zero here in pa. i broke a few rods hunting using roundballs in pa. in winters of 1970s,brrrrrrr, it was cold then, nothing like now. its just so much better with the maxi/powerbelts to reload than the roundball in cold. i could never get groups with roundball as i get with maxi/powerbelt. roundball does, he gets good groups but he shoots aLOT, more than average person.he has everything down to nuts/bolts. most cant shoot like that and refine their shooting and loads etc. so, MAXI-BALL/ POWERBELTS will fill in that void that helps the shooter that only shoots a couple of times a year and hunts that way. for practice i amd shooting nothing but the roundbal BUT when i go hunting WHITETAIL DEER,IT WILL BE the maxi-ball370 or powerbelt 295 in .50cal with 1-48 twist flintlock with open sights. my favorite load is 80grs of 2f with the maxi-ball or powerbelt and around 75/80 grs. of 2f for .490 roundball. roundball is real good at ROUNDBALLS and cayugag too. both shot more than me with them as i could never get real good accuraty with them with my twist of 1-48, they do. its little tricks to get a roundball to shoot well and they both know them. take care.
01-10-2006 | 01:38 PM
#37
Typical Buck
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 771
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
Hi Folks,
Each projectile and loadchoice has a certain limiting factors and constraints.
Roundball hunting demands greater accuracy and shot placement.
For the roundball, the wound channel and hydrostaticshock is not as great as say a hollowpointwhere faster moving, rapid expanding projectiles will cause greater wound channels, more shock and fragmentation. More lethal? Perhaps.
Bigger projectiles cause bigger holes and greater penetration. Does that mean more lethal? Perhaps.
I would say that big conicals and rapid expanding projectiles are more forgiving for less than ideal shot placements than a roundball.
Otherwise, if you put the shot where it's supposed to be in the case of deer or any other mammal then the top end of the heart would be text book followed by a double lung then it really does not matter what you shoot. Some folks like the higher shoulder/spinal shots. I have never been a fan of such shots as strange things have happened to me. Sometimes deer can run forever after being shot to pieces. Other times they simply fall over.
The high shoulder shot is most effective when using either a projectile with higher hydrostatic shock or greater penetration or both.
The main circle of this post is talking about either large heavy projectiles or lighter faster traveling expanding projectiles.
The great thing about muzzleloading is choice.
I hunt with just about everything that loads from the muzzle (roundballs, saboted projectiles, conicals, flintlocks, caplocks, inlines and pistols).
Shot placement is everything regardless of what you are shooting.
But if are shooting a roundball, then shot placement means even more in my book. I feel that the roundball hunter has greater responsibility as the roundball is more limited than other projectile choices.
I have passed on quartering shots with a roundball that I might have taken with a large conical. Does that make the roundball inferior? Not at all.
Michigan does not have acaliber restriction formuzzleloading deer. A fella I know hunts and harvests deer every year with a .36 caliber flintlock rifle and a PRB.
For me the 64 grain .350" roundball is too light to hunt deer with. But who knows? If I had a .36 caliber (or rather when
) then I might just hunt deer with one. Then the next day I would either carry a 50 caliber scoped inline of some flavor shooting say a Hornady SST and the day after perhaps a 54 caliber shooting a hefty conical.
On the day I am carrying a .36 and PRB, I will pass on the high shoulder shot and focus on the top of the heart which it what I aim for most often. Or perhaps a head shot.
Hmm...Now that I have mentioned a .36 caliber, I had better get one this year!
IMHO & Peace,
Tahquamenon
Each projectile and loadchoice has a certain limiting factors and constraints.
Roundball hunting demands greater accuracy and shot placement.
For the roundball, the wound channel and hydrostaticshock is not as great as say a hollowpointwhere faster moving, rapid expanding projectiles will cause greater wound channels, more shock and fragmentation. More lethal? Perhaps.
Bigger projectiles cause bigger holes and greater penetration. Does that mean more lethal? Perhaps.
I would say that big conicals and rapid expanding projectiles are more forgiving for less than ideal shot placements than a roundball.
Otherwise, if you put the shot where it's supposed to be in the case of deer or any other mammal then the top end of the heart would be text book followed by a double lung then it really does not matter what you shoot. Some folks like the higher shoulder/spinal shots. I have never been a fan of such shots as strange things have happened to me. Sometimes deer can run forever after being shot to pieces. Other times they simply fall over.
The high shoulder shot is most effective when using either a projectile with higher hydrostatic shock or greater penetration or both.
The main circle of this post is talking about either large heavy projectiles or lighter faster traveling expanding projectiles.
The great thing about muzzleloading is choice.
I hunt with just about everything that loads from the muzzle (roundballs, saboted projectiles, conicals, flintlocks, caplocks, inlines and pistols).
Shot placement is everything regardless of what you are shooting.
But if are shooting a roundball, then shot placement means even more in my book. I feel that the roundball hunter has greater responsibility as the roundball is more limited than other projectile choices.
I have passed on quartering shots with a roundball that I might have taken with a large conical. Does that make the roundball inferior? Not at all.
Michigan does not have acaliber restriction formuzzleloading deer. A fella I know hunts and harvests deer every year with a .36 caliber flintlock rifle and a PRB.
For me the 64 grain .350" roundball is too light to hunt deer with. But who knows? If I had a .36 caliber (or rather when
) then I might just hunt deer with one. Then the next day I would either carry a 50 caliber scoped inline of some flavor shooting say a Hornady SST and the day after perhaps a 54 caliber shooting a hefty conical.On the day I am carrying a .36 and PRB, I will pass on the high shoulder shot and focus on the top of the heart which it what I aim for most often. Or perhaps a head shot.
Hmm...Now that I have mentioned a .36 caliber, I had better get one this year!
IMHO & Peace,
Tahquamenon
01-10-2006 | 02:21 PM
#38
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,127
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
RE: The misuse of Powerbelts
I know its a fine line, but CDOW approved the Powerbelt on the premise that when it leaves the muzzle of the rifle, it is a full caliber conical that engraved the rifling. They could have just as easily deemed it a sabot; but chose not to. I really don't think the Wildlife Commission had any intention of promoting the sales of Powerbelts, but it is certainly a stroke of fortune for the folks at CVA.
01-10-2006 | 02:36 PM
#40
Dominant Buck
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 26,323
Likes: 0
From: WC FL