ELKampMaster

REFERENCE: 270's & Elk, 270's & Elk.... Think I'm Gonna Puke!

This Index....Since the "270 For Elk?" question is never ending and the answers end up being essentially all the same every time it comes around, I started this thread to "round up all the 270 cliches" [270Win that is] that I could in one place and give the "30-06 power and up for elk" folks an easier way to answer the never ending question "270 For Elk?". Feel free to cut and paste any of my posts into the most recent "270 For Elk?" thread so long as you feel what I wrote is appropriate as an answer or response.
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INDEX FOR THIS THREAD FOR:

Folks Who Like To See A Bit More Power For Elk & Are Considering Responding To "270 For Elk?" Threads:

Page 1 (Top) EKM - Why the "disconnect"? Is it even worth the bother trying to "reconnect" them?
****** Part 1: Few Have Experience With Wide Range Of Cartridges AND With Big, Big Game. Many Have Neither!
****** Part 2: Magnums Okay For Geese (Understand Just Fine), Magnums For Elk (They Don't Understand At All)!
****** Part 3: One Elk Camp's Solution After Years Of "270 Experience". (Means 30-06 plus and They're Not Alone.)
****** Part 4: Pretty Emotional Subject --- Takes A Lot Of Time To Write Up Anything Worthwhile, Most Of Your Audience Won't Want To Hear Much Of What You Say, Are You Sure You Even Want To "Discuss" It With Them?
****** Part 5: A Good Alternative To Answering That "270 For Elk?" Thread & You'll Feel Good Too....

Page 5 (Low) EKM - Magnum Shot Placement - Visualize It And Then Put It Right Thru Into The Boiler Room: Any Angle, Any Bone, Any Time!

Page 6 (Mid) SpyroAndes - Its About Being Unhindered By Your Weapon!

Page 7 (Mid) Rather Be Hunting - Dead Is Dead.... Oh, Really? Is That The Whole Story?

Page 7 (Low) BareBackJack - Jack O'Connor's 270 Was His Ultimate SHEEP Rifle! Oops!

Page 8 (Top) EKM - Making Sense Of Rifles: Varmit Rifles, Deer Rifles, Cross-over Rifles, Elk Rifles, Elk Hammers!

Page 8 (Top) EKM - The Response To "Its Not What You've Got, It's How You Use It" line.

Page 8 (Low) RatherBeHunting - Cows and Rags Don't Equal Big Bull Elk, A Bit Different Toughness Factor!

Page 9 (Low) ELKINMTCWB - 270's, You shoot'em, They Run, Someone Else Tags'em, Is That What You Want?

Page 11 (Low) EKM - Other "270 Details" That Just Kinda Don't Quite Add Up:
****** Part 1 - Why Do The “devout 270'ers” turn around and buy….. "Magnums?"
****** Part 2 - Ratchet Factor: Why, Why, Why Do "Magnum Fans" NOT Want To Go Back To The "Good Old Days," Even Though They Own 270's Left Over From The "Good Old Days"?
****** Part 3 - The Bias Factor: As Time Goes On, "Some Folks Just Can’t Handle Their "Magnums" Anymore!"

Page 12 (Mid) Jeep4x4 - Case In Point (Experience): Using Elk Hunting Shows As The Source Of One's Information!

Page 15 (Top) NVMIKE - 270's: Where There's Smoke, There Is Likely To Be Some Fire....

Page 17 (Bottom) Hunter_59 - More Where There's Smoke, There Is Likely To Be Some Fire....

Page 19 (Mid) EKM - Taylor Index and Elk Hunting: 30-06 Power and Up!

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ORIGINAL POST #1 OF THIS THREAD: WHY IS THERE SUCH A DISCONNECT?

Part 1: Folks With Experience With Wide Range Of Cartridges versus Folks With Experience Limited To Rifles less powerful than even the standard old .30-06. (old but good!)

License application deadline for Colorado must be getting close (April 6) because here comes the herd of "new folks" looking for someone to bless their plans and tell them that it is okay to take the “just get by” approach for elk hunting and go after ’em with a 270 or even less.

It seems just shy of half of the people that respond to these "270's For Elk?" threads appear to have never shot anything bigger than a 30-06 in their life (of course they’re always quick to mention their 12 gauge and yet they seem to be the ones who whine, howl, bark the loudest about theuse of magnums or big bores).

It seems the other portion (just shy of half) that respond appear to have never hunted elk before, so they’re busy surfing the ammo websites for their “experience factor” or just winging it figuring elk are just like their pint sized southern deer (NOT).

Neither one of these groups seems too happy when someone with wide hunting experience across multiple areas and multiple specie big game and has hunted them with a rack of rifles that spans a wide cross section of cartridges BOTH LARGE AND SMALL (that way they it is possible for them to be at least somewhat IMPARTIAL) turns to ‘em and says “you know, "a bit bigger works better" on elk assuming you’re "man enough" to handle it and if you’re going elk hunting you better be a man (i.e. be tough).” [I been watching some of you try and try and try]....

.... to explain to 'em that it might be better to kick their cartridge selection up a notch. BTW, I included the "(i.e. be tough)" part in here because I'm fully aware there are lady hunters out there and lady or not, for elk hunting they need to be tough unless they're just truck hunting. We took young lady along this last year, and at 13 she was pretty damn tough too, 100 pounds or so, farm girl, borrowed and used a '06, got her elk first time out.

So Why The Disconnect?

Part 2: Magnums Okay For Geese (Understand Fine), Magnums For Elk (Don't Understand At All)!

Always amazes me that almost universally if one is talking the heavy duty end of waterfowl hunting, e.g. goose hunting, that you’ll get easy agreement that a 12 gauge Magnum round is better than a .410 round --- then again almost everyone owns a 12 gauge.

Come around to the heavy duty end of NA big game cervid hunting and suddenly the idea of using something bigger (like 30-06 and up) as being appropriate to hunting animals 3 to 4 times the size of a deer is suddenly incomprehensible. Some sort of “disconnect” takes place and the concept suddenly becomes completely foreign to them --- then again lots of folks don’t own anything the size of 30-06 or bigger (lots of 270Win’s though) so IT BECOMES REAL IMPORTANT TO RATIONALIZE what they got sittin’ in the closet by any means possible, even if that means simply villifying what others recommend when the cartridge mentioned may be larger than what they have in the closet.

Part 3: One Elk Camp's Solution (After Years Of The School Of Hard Knocks):

In elk camp our group has imposed a “30-06 power & Premium Bullets” as the absolute minimum for even showing up --- if you don’t got it then you ain’t coming --- period. The camp rifle hanging in the tent is a 30-06, most our members (though not all) use bigger. Since installing that rule some years ago things have been so, so, much, much, much better. (BTW, the 270 was my first rifle at age 14 so I know 270’s; they ARE good strong deer guns).

We get folks, including family, that have howled about the "30-06 and up rule" which they call the“no 270’s rule” just pretty much like they do on this forum. That’s okay. We let’em howl. Don’t care. Won’t change --- seen too much happen with the “pop guns” on elk.

Part 4: It's A Pretty Emotional Subject --- Takes A Lot Of Time To Write Up Anything Worthwhile, Your "Audience" Don't Really Want To Hear What You Have To Say, Are You Sure You Even Want To Bother "Discussing" It With Them?

Someone once said, "One should never try to teach a pig to sing. It sounds like hell and it irritates the pig!"
For you fellas with CURRENT experience with rifles BOTH ABOVE AND BELOW THE 270 "THRESHOLD", that are trying to "enlighten" the “sub 30-06” crowd a little bit about using "a bit stronger rifles for elk hunting" you may well be wasting your breath, somewhat akin to the "trying to teach the pig to sing" in the saying above. Of course you have to follow you own desires, but I’d recommend that you may want to strongly consider to not bother trying. Personally, I've pretty well given up and try to make it a point to not bother posting within the "270 For Elk?" threads anymore.

It is much simpler, involves less brain damage, and is much less frustrating to let them have a nice 270 love fest. Go ahead and let them convince themselves the .270 is best thing that ever was, the absolute gold standard, good for any critter on earth. It's not too hard to just let’em believe it, just smile and let it go. If you do decide to go ahead and try to engage them in a "better to use a little more power for elk hunting" discussion then the following Reference Index may shorten the amount of time it takes you to respond. However, remember after your hard work "scolls" off of page #1, then the "270 For Elk?" question will pop right back up again. It seems there is a never ending supply of these folks and none ever use the "Search" function.

Just "passing" on responding may be easier if you realize that most the posters asking if a 270 is okay for elk will NEVER put an elk in their cross hairs anyway --- just dreamin’ --- nothing wrong with that, so let’em dream. Consider just minding your own business let’em use what guns they got. They may well not make the trip if getting a more powerful rifle is part of the package. IMHO, even though they asked for opinions on the matter on a public hunting forum, they only want to hear that what they have will work absolutely great and work with no conditions AND they have little interest in hearing anything to the contrary (valid or otherwise).

Part 5 - An Alternative So instead of answering that post (especially when you already know the "welcome" you're gonna get) Just think about your upcoming fall Elk hunt.................. fast forward................. cool mornings, clear air, colored leaves............

Go set up your elk camps like you do every year, use what you’ve found to work, grab your "thumper guns" and then just go SMACK THE CRAP OUT OF SOME ELK, just like you usually do --- any angle, any bone, any time, no screwing around, load’em into the panniers and head back to camp. [NOT to be confused with using "30-06 and larger" rifles and using willy-nilly shot placement --- NO!]

Each year as we wind our way out of the back country we meet the starry eyed folks (usually close to the trailhead and often packing "lite" hardware) and the questions start popping up (who, what, where, why, when, and how). I'm usually breathing hard enough and tired enough that an excuse for a "stop" is welcome. We talk. I’m cordial, BUT I keep it limited…. I don’t tell’em where we got’em (up north a piece). I don’t tell’em how we got’em (they just came by and we shot ‘em). I don’t discuss cartridge choices (and the "why" behind it) with them, even though the barrel on my rifle is kind of a dead giveaway (yeah, it’s a pretty heavy one). Just let’em believe what they want to believe, after all they could be the ones that have read all the internet "wisdom" and already know everything. I got what I came for and over the years have got it pretty well honed as to what has worked for us and what hasn't.

Nope, just smile, bid'em fairwell and good luck, move on, get up close to the trailhead [stop, take those lovely, big, fat, long cartridges out of your rifle (safety, safety, safety)], trudge the last 100 yards to the trailhead, move on over to the main camp, get the meat either up into the trees (cold weather) or into the freezers (warm weather), "put up" the horses and get on to a cold beer, a hot shower, and a gourmet meal.

......................... and smile; just let that "270 For Elk?" thread go, they'll be happier if you do, and you won't feel like you wasted your time trying to convince them against their will.....

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But if you decide you just gotta respond to that "270 For Elk?" thread, then hopefully this Reference Index will make it a little quicker, a little easier, a little bit less a waste of your time.

Good Luck and Remember.....

Never Go Undergunned (not even a little).
Always Check The Sight In.
Perform At Showtime!

charlie brown

EKM -

I too am getting tired of all the questions about elk hunting with .270's! I tried to stay out of it, but couldn't keep myself from posting in another thread just this evening. I didn't intend for it to lean to any one direction about which caliber for elk hunting, but rather along the lines of your views about people who have to ask all the time will probably never see an elk in their crosshairs!

So here it is as I posted in the other topic.

This is very interesting, and I find it funny to see how things have changed over the years. I have a book at home about Elk hunting. It was put out in the mid-80's or so. It was put out by the North American Hunting Club, though I don't remember the authors off hand, though I do recall Wayne Van Zwoll, and Chuck Adams. In there, it has the 6 most popular elk cartridges for that time period. They were the .270, 7mm Rem. Mag, .308 Winchester, .30-06, .300 Win Mag, and the .338 Win Mag. This was long before the Ultra Mags, or Lazz's cartridges came out. The Weatherby Cartridges were out, but were quite unpopular in the time. Now all everyone wants are these super magnums for elk. Everyone thinks that the 4 first cartridges listed (No, I don't consider the 7mm Rem. Mag a true magnum due to the fact that it is only slighty more powerful than the .30-06) are not capable of taking elk!! They had been responsible for thousands upon thousands of elk before people even started asking if they were good enough to take elk!!! No one had to ask, they just knew it would work!! And this was before a wide selection of super premium bullets became available (a good addition in my opinion!).

dog1

ElkM.,

Just got thru reading your post. I've also noticed you haven't been on much lately and read your post on why. We have posted some replys' to each other in the past, good and not so good. In this post, you seem to have lost something I liked about you, your willing to understand and help those that don't have the knowledge, experience, funds, etc., even though you can, as in this post, come across as a total jerk.

I don't think that's you, I would think you would keep preaching the right way and not fall to downgrading, particularly those trying to learn, and relying on folks to help and guide them. If we quit trying to educate where does that leave us. What would happen to groups that try to educate people about guns, etc., we might not have these guns.

Thru our post, if you remember, I have been trying to get back to Co. to elk hunt and can't right now. But when I do, I'll probably be carrying my ole 06, even though I have a 300 Win. Mag. in the closet and it's been there since the early 70's. When I got it (that's another story), I took a couple of whitetail with it and put it up for that trip out west. I just don't like it and I know what I can do with the 06, does that make me stupid, don't think so. But I like reading, and hearing about what does work, whether I follow that advice or not is my decision. However, "I think it's our responsibility to keep trying to educate others, but without degrading them."

Don't know, maybe it's just me, but seems you have changed, and that's sad. I hope you and others' with experience don't give up on those that don't have the opportunities you may have.

Sincerely,
dog1

Pace Maker

I don't care what anyone says, this is one of my favorite posts of all time! It's the exact opinion I have of the 270 and no one's going to change that. But, that's what's great about these forums, we're all entitled to our opinion. If you don't like it, don't read it.

Portage

Yeah but is the 270 Winchester with 150 gr. Partitions any good for elk?

gselkhunter

Hey EKM, Got the hackles up a bit? I don't like 270s either they bend my arrows! On the serious side, I have to side with EKM. Guys go out with 52lbs bows and carbon arrows and expandable broadheads, oh yeah they get lucky once in awhile. But it isn't fair to the animal. Muscle is what gets the job done. It is one thing to shoot a target, they die easy. Too many elk are lost each year to the wrong equipment or lack of practice. Be a good hunter, be ethical and responsible to the animal.
Gselkhunter

huntnmuleys

this is a touchy subject for sure....
im not going to argue that a .270 isnt the strongest elk gun, but i do honestly believe that if patience is used in selecting a shot, and a person is familiar enough with the gun, that the .270 will work fine.. just my opinion, too many people use them here effectively.
now to the part of this discussion that pertains to me as a bowhunter

gselkhunter, i could not agree more with your post on the archery equipment. man i hat expandable broadheads!!!!! i konw they get the job done most of the time, but ive seen a few not do it around here, and i have always just hated them. i think the biggest part of hating them to me though, is that they fly so perfectly. i have seen too many people, who shoot approximately the setup you described, pull their bow out in late august after not shooting all year, throw on those damn heads, shoot one at 20 yards, and confident they are ready head out to the woods. that flat pisses me off. i think hunting in general takes dedication and commitment, and a lot of hunters dont have it...
okay, ill be quiet now
brad

elknut1

Last night I was thinking about the other thread on the .270 and the first thing that came to mind was ole EKM, now that's respect ha!! The on-going but yet, never ending debate, and I mean never ending. <grin> A .270 is a great youth or womans rifle. (not weapon, I'm learning) more than capable of handling the largest elk. Actually the former world record elk was taken from a single shot with a .270. (I know it was luck) <grin>

I say this because most prefer an 06 or bigger, to each his own!! More bang for your buck is a good thing when elk hunting. But if you flinch or just flat can't handle the larger bores, does this mean you should just stay home?? No, no more than a bowhunter who can't pull more than a 45# bow. It'll kill elk, but in both instances you're limited in your range. Respect that for whatever weapon (oops) you choose and you'll be showing both respect for the animal & still be able to hunt the most magnificent creature God put on earth!!------------------------------------------------------ElkNut1

andy_o

Hey EKM, No disrespect but I wish we could put you in a room with Jack Oconner for a day, or even send the two of you out hunting togeater.

idahoelkinstructor

EKM, I about feel off my chair laughing, when I read this. I have never have heard someone say this before in the way you put it but you are right with being tough. Tough can mean different things not just how much recoil you can take. I will say that being tough applies to all elk hunting in general not just with weapon power selection. An example, for me with bowhunting for instance, is that there are two things that I always want more of when chasing elk. Sleep and water, I do cary a water purifcation bottle and I drink a lot of water but it seem many days I am always thursting for more water. It seem like no matter how much I drink I always need more of it. I do hike and cover a lot of ground in a typical day, in very rough steep country. The other thing I need more than water is sleep, after 5 to 7 days strait going to bed late and getting up at 3:30 or 4:00 with only a few hours of sleep and your body is tucker out. Well sometimes it takes a burning desire deep down to get up and keep going. When I reach this point I always remind myself and say what will I think come January? When September seems so far off, and come then I would give anything to pick up a bow and give chase to an bull elk. I know that if I give up a good day of hunting, that come January I would be pissed at myself. So I get my butt out of bed and go give them hell until I have to go home with or without an elk. Now with this said I also agree that we owe it to all animals we hunt that we are armed with the correct equipment fitted to us, to get the job done. In our archery class a few years ago we taught a woman who that fall went out and shot a huge bull. She was shooting a 42# bow with a Cut on Contact broadhead, the bull only went 50 yards. I'll have to dig up a pic and have my wife post it.