Anybody else feed the animals in the winter?
02-17-2009, 04:48 PM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: in the woods or on the water...
Posts: 4,832
RE: Anybody else feed the animals in the winter?
ORIGINAL: Siman08/OH
Heres my answer to all of you....
#1, When a hunter or nature lover puts out corn in the winter for deer, it takes them off of their natural feeding patterns. They will pattern themselves to the corn (most likely hitting it at night). This is not good however because contrary to what people are made to believe, corn is not "good" for a deer. It has little nutritional value. Deer should be out foraging and eating a variety of plants in the winter to keep themselves healthy. But when corn is made readily available, it turns off that cycle. Also, if the hunter would ever forget to put corn out for an extended period, or stop altogether, it really screws with their feeding habits.
#2, Deerfeeding from feeders/troughs/cornpilesare believed tobe able to spread CWD and other saliva/blood based diseases. This reason alone should be enough to not put corn piles out.
#3, It creates a "fish in a bucket" syndrome. I used to use corn in front of my game cameras. When i saw that i could get 2 bucks and 5 does together at the same time during daylight hours, i stopped. Why? Because their is no skill in throwing out a pile of corn and "ringing the dinner bell"for deer hunting. I am not in this to "feed my family" (though we enjoy, and eat every deer we harvest), or "increase my kill numbers". I deer hunt to have fun in the outdoors, learn about the animal, and my ultimate goal is to be able to ethically harvest a mature whitetail year after year.
Arguments could be made that;
"You must not be from around here", no, i may not be, but you dont have to bait deer to kill them. If deer are so scarce that you believe the only way to kill them is to bait, then i suggest moving to a different are and letting the population rebound. Take our friend Skybuster, his deer numbers are extremely poor, so he TRACKS his quarry. That is true hunting to me. Kudos to him. People who are from Texas and other southern states say baiting is the only way and thats how THEY do i. Thats fine. I don't have a problem with that, any legal choice is okay with me. But inside, i don't view them as the same kind of hunter as me, and thats just opinion.
"Food Plots", this one is tricky, because technically YOU are putting it their and it is acting like a bait station. But, food plots require many factors to work, and if you can grow them successfully in your climate, then they are legally natural and the deer have a choice of which browse to feed on. Also, they are usually larger then a 5 gallon bucket, thus spreading out your chances of harvesting a deer in one. If you put the time and EFFORT into building a great food plot, then i personally feel that you earned the right to hunt over it and use it fair. I have not used one yet, but i plan to in the future. I view food plots just like i view farm fields, you have to draw a line where to cut out ethical and unethical in you own mind.
"calls and scents", i find these ethical because you are using his own weaknesses against him. He has a choice weather to respond or not. Deer HAVE to eat, they dont have to come looking for every hot doe in the county.
"mineral licks", these actually help deer grow antler if you use trace minerals. The only downside is the possible spreading of CWD because of the saliva factor. Studies have proven that MOST deer (Not all, there are exceptions) abandon mineral licks after the summer months. if you choose to hunt over them, that is your call. I do not, but i do have a few established licks.
Once again, everything i said is just my opinion, and nothing else. Everyone is entitled to there own, and it is wrong for me to try and change your own logic on the subject. But, like ive shown, im not afraid to offer mine up for discussion.
Heres my answer to all of you....
#1, When a hunter or nature lover puts out corn in the winter for deer, it takes them off of their natural feeding patterns. They will pattern themselves to the corn (most likely hitting it at night). This is not good however because contrary to what people are made to believe, corn is not "good" for a deer. It has little nutritional value. Deer should be out foraging and eating a variety of plants in the winter to keep themselves healthy. But when corn is made readily available, it turns off that cycle. Also, if the hunter would ever forget to put corn out for an extended period, or stop altogether, it really screws with their feeding habits.
#2, Deerfeeding from feeders/troughs/cornpilesare believed tobe able to spread CWD and other saliva/blood based diseases. This reason alone should be enough to not put corn piles out.
#3, It creates a "fish in a bucket" syndrome. I used to use corn in front of my game cameras. When i saw that i could get 2 bucks and 5 does together at the same time during daylight hours, i stopped. Why? Because their is no skill in throwing out a pile of corn and "ringing the dinner bell"for deer hunting. I am not in this to "feed my family" (though we enjoy, and eat every deer we harvest), or "increase my kill numbers". I deer hunt to have fun in the outdoors, learn about the animal, and my ultimate goal is to be able to ethically harvest a mature whitetail year after year.
Arguments could be made that;
"You must not be from around here", no, i may not be, but you dont have to bait deer to kill them. If deer are so scarce that you believe the only way to kill them is to bait, then i suggest moving to a different are and letting the population rebound. Take our friend Skybuster, his deer numbers are extremely poor, so he TRACKS his quarry. That is true hunting to me. Kudos to him. People who are from Texas and other southern states say baiting is the only way and thats how THEY do i. Thats fine. I don't have a problem with that, any legal choice is okay with me. But inside, i don't view them as the same kind of hunter as me, and thats just opinion.
"Food Plots", this one is tricky, because technically YOU are putting it their and it is acting like a bait station. But, food plots require many factors to work, and if you can grow them successfully in your climate, then they are legally natural and the deer have a choice of which browse to feed on. Also, they are usually larger then a 5 gallon bucket, thus spreading out your chances of harvesting a deer in one. If you put the time and EFFORT into building a great food plot, then i personally feel that you earned the right to hunt over it and use it fair. I have not used one yet, but i plan to in the future. I view food plots just like i view farm fields, you have to draw a line where to cut out ethical and unethical in you own mind.
"calls and scents", i find these ethical because you are using his own weaknesses against him. He has a choice weather to respond or not. Deer HAVE to eat, they dont have to come looking for every hot doe in the county.
"mineral licks", these actually help deer grow antler if you use trace minerals. The only downside is the possible spreading of CWD because of the saliva factor. Studies have proven that MOST deer (Not all, there are exceptions) abandon mineral licks after the summer months. if you choose to hunt over them, that is your call. I do not, but i do have a few established licks.
Once again, everything i said is just my opinion, and nothing else. Everyone is entitled to there own, and it is wrong for me to try and change your own logic on the subject. But, like ive shown, im not afraid to offer mine up for discussion.
My responses:
#1.) Anything takes deer off their natural feeding pattern. When a deer winds you, he is off his natural pattern, pending on the knowledge of the deer, for up to two months. Corn may not bring "nutritional value", but many deer would never survive because of the amount of Fat that corn puts on deer. Deer would have very much difficulty surviving the winter, but this is a completely different subject.
There is baiting deer for hunting purposes, and feeding deer to lessen the chance of starvation.
Your very correct that a "bait-pile" will take deer off their natural feeding pattern, though a bait-pile(pertaining to Northern States with hard winters) will be gone by the 1st of the year. Thus giving deer plenty of time to return to their natural feeding patterns. Also, in many states it is illegal to bait before a certain time period, Michigan for instances is October 1st.
#2.) I live about 4 miles from the most recent CWD confirmed case in Michigan. The only confirmed case in Michigan. It is a bunch of hog-wash crap. The first result came up positive, and the following two results on the deer came up negative. They killed 1,000's of deer with not one confirmed case.
To spread disease, disease must be present. I agree with having a plan in place but Natural Resource committees need to have better decision making skills.
#3.) I'd love to have a "Fish in the Bucket" syndrome. I hunt areas where there are fewer than two deer per square mile. I have found that my legal amount of bait, 2 gallons, will attract deer from over 2 miles away. How do I know this? I have followed deer trails from their bedding area to my stand-site. Almost 1.75 miles until I reached a cedar swamp sanctuary that I would not enter.
I agree that there is no skill in throwing a bait pile out and sitting 20 yards away. With you saying that, is there skill in scouting over 30 days a year before season, everyday during season, and about once a week after season, and placing a bait pile in an area to attract the best potential deer in hopes of being able to put myself in a better position to harvest a mature deer from that area? or is there no skill in this either?
Your counter-arguments are very accurate.
I hunt a place where deer are scarce because my grandfather built that camp in 1948, and has hunted their every year until his death. I will do the same every year until my death, tradition one would call it.
Tracking is another way of hunting. In my opinion you scare many more deer than you shoot. Sure, one will bring up the infamous Beniot Brothers, or likewise, and congratulations to the VERY fewwho succesfully track and kill mature deer year in and year out.
Food plots are the exact same thing as baiting. You are putting food in a place to put the deer where you want them. Everytime I was to put a "bait-pile" out, instead I was to spread every kernle of corn over an entire acre. Does this make my "bait-pile" a food plot?
02-17-2009, 04:56 PM
#42
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chatham, Ohio
Posts: 8,834
RE: Anybody else feed the animals in the winter?
ORIGINAL: buckhunter14
THESE ARE ALL MY OPINION, to each his own. I respect your ideas Caleb and think each is great.
My responses:
#1.) Anything takes deer off their natural feeding pattern. When a deer winds you, he is off his natural pattern, pending on the knowledge of the deer, for up to two months. Corn may not bring "nutritional value", but many deer would never survive because of the amount of Fat that corn puts on deer. Deer would have very much difficulty surviving the winter, but this is a completely different subject.
There is baiting deer for hunting purposes, and feeding deer to lessen the chance of starvation.
Your very correct that a "bait-pile" will take deer off their natural feeding pattern, though a bait-pile(pertaining to Northern States with hard winters) will be gone by the 1st of the year. Thus giving deer plenty of time to return to their natural feeding patterns. Also, in many states it is illegal to bait before a certain time period, Michigan for instances is October 1st.
#2.) I live about 4 miles from the most recent CWD confirmed case in Michigan. The only confirmed case in Michigan. It is a bunch of hog-wash crap. The first result came up positive, and the following two results on the deer came up negative. They killed 1,000's of deer with not one confirmed case.
To spread disease, disease must be present. I agree with having a plan in place but Natural Resource committees need to have better decision making skills.
#3.) I'd love to have a "Fish in the Bucket" syndrome. I hunt areas where there are fewer than two deer per square mile. I have found that my legal amount of bait, 2 gallons, will attract deer from over 2 miles away. How do I know this? I have followed deer trails from their bedding area to my stand-site. Almost 1.75 miles until I reached a cedar swamp sanctuary that I would not enter.
I agree that there is no skill in throwing a bait pile out and sitting 20 yards away. With you saying that, is there skill in scouting over 30 days a year before season, everyday during season, and about once a week after season, and placing a bait pile in an area to attract the best potential deer in hopes of being able to put myself in a better position to harvest a mature deer from that area? or is there no skill in this either?
Your counter-arguments are very accurate.
I hunt a place where deer are scarce because my grandfather built that camp in 1948, and has hunted their every year until his death. I will do the same every year until my death, tradition one would call it.
Tracking is another way of hunting. In my opinion you scare many more deer than you shoot. Sure, one will bring up the infamous Beniot Brothers, or likewise, and congratulations to the VERY fewwho succesfully track and kill mature deer year in and year out.
Food plots are the exact same thing as baiting. You are putting food in a place to put the deer where you want them. Everytime I was to put a "bait-pile" out, instead I was to spread every kernle of corn over an entire acre. Does this make my "bait-pile" a food plot?
ORIGINAL: Siman08/OH
Heres my answer to all of you....
#1, When a hunter or nature lover puts out corn in the winter for deer, it takes them off of their natural feeding patterns. They will pattern themselves to the corn (most likely hitting it at night). This is not good however because contrary to what people are made to believe, corn is not "good" for a deer. It has little nutritional value. Deer should be out foraging and eating a variety of plants in the winter to keep themselves healthy. But when corn is made readily available, it turns off that cycle. Also, if the hunter would ever forget to put corn out for an extended period, or stop altogether, it really screws with their feeding habits.
#2, Deerfeeding from feeders/troughs/cornpilesare believed tobe able to spread CWD and other saliva/blood based diseases. This reason alone should be enough to not put corn piles out.
#3, It creates a "fish in a bucket" syndrome. I used to use corn in front of my game cameras. When i saw that i could get 2 bucks and 5 does together at the same time during daylight hours, i stopped. Why? Because their is no skill in throwing out a pile of corn and "ringing the dinner bell"for deer hunting. I am not in this to "feed my family" (though we enjoy, and eat every deer we harvest), or "increase my kill numbers". I deer hunt to have fun in the outdoors, learn about the animal, and my ultimate goal is to be able to ethically harvest a mature whitetail year after year.
Arguments could be made that;
"You must not be from around here", no, i may not be, but you dont have to bait deer to kill them. If deer are so scarce that you believe the only way to kill them is to bait, then i suggest moving to a different are and letting the population rebound. Take our friend Skybuster, his deer numbers are extremely poor, so he TRACKS his quarry. That is true hunting to me. Kudos to him. People who are from Texas and other southern states say baiting is the only way and thats how THEY do i. Thats fine. I don't have a problem with that, any legal choice is okay with me. But inside, i don't view them as the same kind of hunter as me, and thats just opinion.
"Food Plots", this one is tricky, because technically YOU are putting it their and it is acting like a bait station. But, food plots require many factors to work, and if you can grow them successfully in your climate, then they are legally natural and the deer have a choice of which browse to feed on. Also, they are usually larger then a 5 gallon bucket, thus spreading out your chances of harvesting a deer in one. If you put the time and EFFORT into building a great food plot, then i personally feel that you earned the right to hunt over it and use it fair. I have not used one yet, but i plan to in the future. I view food plots just like i view farm fields, you have to draw a line where to cut out ethical and unethical in you own mind.
"calls and scents", i find these ethical because you are using his own weaknesses against him. He has a choice weather to respond or not. Deer HAVE to eat, they dont have to come looking for every hot doe in the county.
"mineral licks", these actually help deer grow antler if you use trace minerals. The only downside is the possible spreading of CWD because of the saliva factor. Studies have proven that MOST deer (Not all, there are exceptions) abandon mineral licks after the summer months. if you choose to hunt over them, that is your call. I do not, but i do have a few established licks.
Once again, everything i said is just my opinion, and nothing else. Everyone is entitled to there own, and it is wrong for me to try and change your own logic on the subject. But, like ive shown, im not afraid to offer mine up for discussion.
Heres my answer to all of you....
#1, When a hunter or nature lover puts out corn in the winter for deer, it takes them off of their natural feeding patterns. They will pattern themselves to the corn (most likely hitting it at night). This is not good however because contrary to what people are made to believe, corn is not "good" for a deer. It has little nutritional value. Deer should be out foraging and eating a variety of plants in the winter to keep themselves healthy. But when corn is made readily available, it turns off that cycle. Also, if the hunter would ever forget to put corn out for an extended period, or stop altogether, it really screws with their feeding habits.
#2, Deerfeeding from feeders/troughs/cornpilesare believed tobe able to spread CWD and other saliva/blood based diseases. This reason alone should be enough to not put corn piles out.
#3, It creates a "fish in a bucket" syndrome. I used to use corn in front of my game cameras. When i saw that i could get 2 bucks and 5 does together at the same time during daylight hours, i stopped. Why? Because their is no skill in throwing out a pile of corn and "ringing the dinner bell"for deer hunting. I am not in this to "feed my family" (though we enjoy, and eat every deer we harvest), or "increase my kill numbers". I deer hunt to have fun in the outdoors, learn about the animal, and my ultimate goal is to be able to ethically harvest a mature whitetail year after year.
Arguments could be made that;
"You must not be from around here", no, i may not be, but you dont have to bait deer to kill them. If deer are so scarce that you believe the only way to kill them is to bait, then i suggest moving to a different are and letting the population rebound. Take our friend Skybuster, his deer numbers are extremely poor, so he TRACKS his quarry. That is true hunting to me. Kudos to him. People who are from Texas and other southern states say baiting is the only way and thats how THEY do i. Thats fine. I don't have a problem with that, any legal choice is okay with me. But inside, i don't view them as the same kind of hunter as me, and thats just opinion.
"Food Plots", this one is tricky, because technically YOU are putting it their and it is acting like a bait station. But, food plots require many factors to work, and if you can grow them successfully in your climate, then they are legally natural and the deer have a choice of which browse to feed on. Also, they are usually larger then a 5 gallon bucket, thus spreading out your chances of harvesting a deer in one. If you put the time and EFFORT into building a great food plot, then i personally feel that you earned the right to hunt over it and use it fair. I have not used one yet, but i plan to in the future. I view food plots just like i view farm fields, you have to draw a line where to cut out ethical and unethical in you own mind.
"calls and scents", i find these ethical because you are using his own weaknesses against him. He has a choice weather to respond or not. Deer HAVE to eat, they dont have to come looking for every hot doe in the county.
"mineral licks", these actually help deer grow antler if you use trace minerals. The only downside is the possible spreading of CWD because of the saliva factor. Studies have proven that MOST deer (Not all, there are exceptions) abandon mineral licks after the summer months. if you choose to hunt over them, that is your call. I do not, but i do have a few established licks.
Once again, everything i said is just my opinion, and nothing else. Everyone is entitled to there own, and it is wrong for me to try and change your own logic on the subject. But, like ive shown, im not afraid to offer mine up for discussion.
My responses:
#1.) Anything takes deer off their natural feeding pattern. When a deer winds you, he is off his natural pattern, pending on the knowledge of the deer, for up to two months. Corn may not bring "nutritional value", but many deer would never survive because of the amount of Fat that corn puts on deer. Deer would have very much difficulty surviving the winter, but this is a completely different subject.
There is baiting deer for hunting purposes, and feeding deer to lessen the chance of starvation.
Your very correct that a "bait-pile" will take deer off their natural feeding pattern, though a bait-pile(pertaining to Northern States with hard winters) will be gone by the 1st of the year. Thus giving deer plenty of time to return to their natural feeding patterns. Also, in many states it is illegal to bait before a certain time period, Michigan for instances is October 1st.
#2.) I live about 4 miles from the most recent CWD confirmed case in Michigan. The only confirmed case in Michigan. It is a bunch of hog-wash crap. The first result came up positive, and the following two results on the deer came up negative. They killed 1,000's of deer with not one confirmed case.
To spread disease, disease must be present. I agree with having a plan in place but Natural Resource committees need to have better decision making skills.
#3.) I'd love to have a "Fish in the Bucket" syndrome. I hunt areas where there are fewer than two deer per square mile. I have found that my legal amount of bait, 2 gallons, will attract deer from over 2 miles away. How do I know this? I have followed deer trails from their bedding area to my stand-site. Almost 1.75 miles until I reached a cedar swamp sanctuary that I would not enter.
I agree that there is no skill in throwing a bait pile out and sitting 20 yards away. With you saying that, is there skill in scouting over 30 days a year before season, everyday during season, and about once a week after season, and placing a bait pile in an area to attract the best potential deer in hopes of being able to put myself in a better position to harvest a mature deer from that area? or is there no skill in this either?
Your counter-arguments are very accurate.
I hunt a place where deer are scarce because my grandfather built that camp in 1948, and has hunted their every year until his death. I will do the same every year until my death, tradition one would call it.
Tracking is another way of hunting. In my opinion you scare many more deer than you shoot. Sure, one will bring up the infamous Beniot Brothers, or likewise, and congratulations to the VERY fewwho succesfully track and kill mature deer year in and year out.
Food plots are the exact same thing as baiting. You are putting food in a place to put the deer where you want them. Everytime I was to put a "bait-pile" out, instead I was to spread every kernle of corn over an entire acre. Does this make my "bait-pile" a food plot?
02-17-2009, 05:49 PM
#43
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: in the woods or on the water...
Posts: 4,832
RE: Anybody else feed the animals in the winter?
Completely! Two different styles, no matter what, as long as it is legal and adding to the better of the deer herd.
That's is what people don't understand, when they actually try to make other people change their mind over a hunting forum... Now thats a pissin' match right there.
That's is what people don't understand, when they actually try to make other people change their mind over a hunting forum... Now thats a pissin' match right there.
02-18-2009, 08:06 AM
#44
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Darrtown, OH
Posts: 4,210
RE: Anybody else feed the animals in the winter?
Caleb, you do display some very valid points. But I do have a few questions. First are you saying that not putting corn out for a trailcamera will encourage deer to visit that area in the daytime hrs? Also would you explain more on how you hunt. Because I know most of the places that I hunt have some form of bait (corn piles/salt and minerals/blocks) in the vicenity. I do scout in the offseason but out of the 77 acres that I can hunt only about 8 of it is woods the rest is in pretty clear view of my house or the road. So I dont have that many secluded places to hunt. Which I previously thought made it more essential for me to use bait. Because most of my trailcamera pics from the fields surrounding my house were in the middle of the night, and the woods pics were in daylight.
02-18-2009, 09:48 AM
#45
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chatham, Ohio
Posts: 8,834
RE: Anybody else feed the animals in the winter?
Jake,
Ihunt alot of small farms (100 acres or less). Over the last 3 yeas bowhunting, i have worked on my tactics alot, but i have never had a full season to devote to hunting (school the first year, last year i worked and girlfriend surgery this year). Because of this i havnt done alot of "rut" hunting. That is an area i need to work on.
The way i hunt though is this; Early season , i like to set up on field edges to see where deer are coming out, and what they prefer to feed on. I do alot of video-taping during this time since the weather is usually beautiful. I have never shot a deer during the early season though. I find field hunting great for seeing deer, but shot opportunities are few because of how spread out the layout is.
Once the seasons has been going for awhile and the rut is starting to kick in, i migrate deeper into the woods and find scrape/rub lines. Last year and this year i saw a good number of bucks using this tactic, but most were in the 1.5 and 2.5 year old range. Once again, this is the tactic i want to refine for next year.
Late season, i like to find good trails in between bedding and feeding areas. Thats how i harvested my doe this year.
I dont always stick to this plan though, sometimes i will go deep into the forest early in the year and stay out near the fields during the rut. Their are alot of factors. During the rut, i like to do alot of rattling.
Also this year i want to try food plots. That is something i have never done. I do have 17 acres of hayfields (clover) availible this year that wasnt matured last year. Im excited for that.
Ihunt alot of small farms (100 acres or less). Over the last 3 yeas bowhunting, i have worked on my tactics alot, but i have never had a full season to devote to hunting (school the first year, last year i worked and girlfriend surgery this year). Because of this i havnt done alot of "rut" hunting. That is an area i need to work on.
The way i hunt though is this; Early season , i like to set up on field edges to see where deer are coming out, and what they prefer to feed on. I do alot of video-taping during this time since the weather is usually beautiful. I have never shot a deer during the early season though. I find field hunting great for seeing deer, but shot opportunities are few because of how spread out the layout is.
Once the seasons has been going for awhile and the rut is starting to kick in, i migrate deeper into the woods and find scrape/rub lines. Last year and this year i saw a good number of bucks using this tactic, but most were in the 1.5 and 2.5 year old range. Once again, this is the tactic i want to refine for next year.
Late season, i like to find good trails in between bedding and feeding areas. Thats how i harvested my doe this year.
I dont always stick to this plan though, sometimes i will go deep into the forest early in the year and stay out near the fields during the rut. Their are alot of factors. During the rut, i like to do alot of rattling.
Also this year i want to try food plots. That is something i have never done. I do have 17 acres of hayfields (clover) availible this year that wasnt matured last year. Im excited for that.
02-18-2009, 10:56 AM
#46
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Darrtown, OH
Posts: 4,210
RE: Anybody else feed the animals in the winter?
Thanks because I really do would like to be more succesful in harvesting deer by preseason scouting rather than dumping some corn and waiting for bucky to come along. Like I kinda have done up until this point in my hunting career.
02-21-2009, 05:02 AM
#47
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location:
Posts: 172
RE: Anybody else feed the animals in the winter?
I put corn right in front for my grandmas house...she watchs what comes there...all the time....when there is no corn left they don't come any more...so it really doesn't mess them up...
02-21-2009, 07:49 AM
#48
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Darrtown, OH
Posts: 4,210
RE: Anybody else feed the animals in the winter?
Hey jd850dlc I like that avatar I shot a buck back in 2007 that looked virtually identical except that the broken beam was on the other side. It is amazing how similar they are.
02-21-2009, 01:11 PM
#49
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 2,754
RE: Anybody else feed the animals in the winter?
ORIGINAL: mossberghunter93
Hey jd850dlc I like that avatar I shot a buck back in 2007 that looked virtually identical except that the broken beam was on the other side. It is amazing how similar they are.
Hey jd850dlc I like that avatar I shot a buck back in 2007 that looked virtually identical except that the broken beam was on the other side. It is amazing how similar they are.