Buck dispersment and QDM?
07-09-2002, 07:55 PM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: cazenovia, NY USA
Posts: 2,973
Buck dispersment and QDM?
I know some of you are QDM members, others are far more up on it than I do. I have a couple questions that maybe has been addressed by some of you, and I wonder if you could share your thouhts.
For purposes of this disscussion - Our managed land is 160 acres with 16 acres of plots (give or take). The surrounding area consists of one active farm 400 acres, a horse farm 200 acres, and a couple inactive farms, and woods/brush totaling another 500 acres. Its a typical Dairy Farm area, with rolling hills.
So many studies have been done now that show that yearling bucks disperse 2 - 20 miles from their birthplace. How does QDM handle this? By this I mean, these young bucks are coming from well fed, highly successful does, on good property, and relocating to areas where it is unlikely they will be seen again, on the managed property. At the same time, I think we can conclude that, the yearling bucks that do take up residence, are from 2-20 miles distant, and may or may not have good nutrition before arriving on the managed land.
Obviously, if we let these yearlings walk, they have the potential to excel on the managed property's resources, still I cannot help but wonder if they are not on the same level nutritionally as the resident does.
That leads me into my second question. We've noticed, and studies seem to back up the fact that Alpha Does will aquire the areas with the best food, and cover for fawn rearing. In fact, it is still very uncommon for us to see very many bucks, and rarley a good one in our best food plots until Sept or Oct, though we some incredibly large does with multiple fawns. For most of the summer, we see the best bucks on the fringes of the property (at dusk), and often in overgrown pastures and feeding on sub-quality land. We suspect that they simply do not associate with the doe/fawn units until late summer, or that the come at night to feed. Also that they are better suited to meet thier nutritional needs on natural vegetation. For this reason we began last year planting 1/2 acre plots in clearings well away from the main food plots, we do not yet know if this has had any effect.
On a side note: Most of our bucks taken over the last 5 years have been getting better in terms of weight and antler size - especially the 2-1/2 yr and older. Our does are in excellent health, with the average dressed weight exceeding 130 lbs - which also is an improvement over 5 years ago. So I know things are going well, sometimes I'm not sure why though.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
For purposes of this disscussion - Our managed land is 160 acres with 16 acres of plots (give or take). The surrounding area consists of one active farm 400 acres, a horse farm 200 acres, and a couple inactive farms, and woods/brush totaling another 500 acres. Its a typical Dairy Farm area, with rolling hills.
So many studies have been done now that show that yearling bucks disperse 2 - 20 miles from their birthplace. How does QDM handle this? By this I mean, these young bucks are coming from well fed, highly successful does, on good property, and relocating to areas where it is unlikely they will be seen again, on the managed property. At the same time, I think we can conclude that, the yearling bucks that do take up residence, are from 2-20 miles distant, and may or may not have good nutrition before arriving on the managed land.
Obviously, if we let these yearlings walk, they have the potential to excel on the managed property's resources, still I cannot help but wonder if they are not on the same level nutritionally as the resident does.
That leads me into my second question. We've noticed, and studies seem to back up the fact that Alpha Does will aquire the areas with the best food, and cover for fawn rearing. In fact, it is still very uncommon for us to see very many bucks, and rarley a good one in our best food plots until Sept or Oct, though we some incredibly large does with multiple fawns. For most of the summer, we see the best bucks on the fringes of the property (at dusk), and often in overgrown pastures and feeding on sub-quality land. We suspect that they simply do not associate with the doe/fawn units until late summer, or that the come at night to feed. Also that they are better suited to meet thier nutritional needs on natural vegetation. For this reason we began last year planting 1/2 acre plots in clearings well away from the main food plots, we do not yet know if this has had any effect.
On a side note: Most of our bucks taken over the last 5 years have been getting better in terms of weight and antler size - especially the 2-1/2 yr and older. Our does are in excellent health, with the average dressed weight exceeding 130 lbs - which also is an improvement over 5 years ago. So I know things are going well, sometimes I'm not sure why though.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
07-09-2002, 09:09 PM
#2
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 973
RE: Buck dispersment and QDM?
You may have the answer to your questions burried in your observations and study. The primary ingredient for quality bucks in most of the lower 48 is age, followed by genetics and last by nutrition. We're talking again about most areas of the country. The reason why it is important to provide the highest quality habitat is to attract those dominant (alpha) does you mention. They will take residence on your property for fawning and likely remain unless driven out or killed. A dominant doe will most successfully ward off younger bucks at breeding time waiting for a dominant male, and, if there is one within miles, he will come. She is your calling card. The dominant doe will cycle sooner than a younger doe and draw many suitors. Let them walk, and you will improve your chance of seeing a 2 1/2 year old or better buck. She may not be visited by a dominant male in the first cycle so be out there when she cycles again 30 days later. Expect her to first cycle as early as 2-3 weeks prior to your "peak" rut date. Good luck. It sounds like you have an excellent property for QDM. If you shoot lots of does with one or no young, you'll do your program a world of good. Most dominant does will successfully bear 2 or more fawns.
07-09-2002, 09:22 PM
#3
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Murray KY USA
Posts: 16
RE: Buck dispersment and QDM?
I tend to believe that the mature doe is the very one you want to harvest most. Actually, it is probably advantageous to harvest every mature doe you can. Remember, the mother doe is the catalyst for young buck dispersal as she frequently drives the yearling buck from her home range. Alpha does also dominate bucks for much of the year, so they tend to get the best nutrition. That's why removing does leaves more & better quality food for bucks, along with helping to balance the sex ratios. I think you would see even better results that you have already seen if you would shoot the heck out of the does.
07-10-2002, 12:46 PM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: cazenovia, NY USA
Posts: 2,973
RE: Buck dispersment and QDM?
Thank you all for your input, I knew I wasn't the first to grapple with this question. I feel better about the occasional Button being taken as a result of this conversation, and will relay some of the information to our party regarding the dispersal.
Bsk - No I haven't read Quality Whitetails, but have been meaning to. I really do not have alot of literature regarding QDM, but realize I should get my hands on some of it. Your post has helped me understand the dynamics of dispersal a bit better than I did, especially that dispesal would actually occur just prior to the rut, and not at fawning time like I had thought it would.
OK - So would you all agree that assuming a moderate Doe Harvest( 4-8 does/160 acres), that still the majority of the bucks that do the breeding will have been born elsewhere? And if so, other than food plots, what would be the best way to attract the "better" bucks from the surrounding area to set up shop in our area? Will you agree it is security cover, or access to does, or another factor.
Also, is it safe to assume that summer observed 2-1/2yr+ bucks are likely residents and that most summer observed 1-1/2 yr old bucks are likely to disperse?
Thanks again.
Bsk - No I haven't read Quality Whitetails, but have been meaning to. I really do not have alot of literature regarding QDM, but realize I should get my hands on some of it. Your post has helped me understand the dynamics of dispersal a bit better than I did, especially that dispesal would actually occur just prior to the rut, and not at fawning time like I had thought it would.
OK - So would you all agree that assuming a moderate Doe Harvest( 4-8 does/160 acres), that still the majority of the bucks that do the breeding will have been born elsewhere? And if so, other than food plots, what would be the best way to attract the "better" bucks from the surrounding area to set up shop in our area? Will you agree it is security cover, or access to does, or another factor.
Also, is it safe to assume that summer observed 2-1/2yr+ bucks are likely residents and that most summer observed 1-1/2 yr old bucks are likely to disperse?
Thanks again.
07-10-2002, 01:18 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
RE: Buck dispersment and QDM?
LOL...stinky!
Good post BSK. I think you hit it on the head. Also, something I believe on the young buck dispersal is... it is mother natures way to help cut down on inbreeding. I don't know how true this actually is but it makes sense.
FH...I agree that 2.5+ year olds would probably be full time residents....with the exception of the rut...you know how they can wander. As far as attracting mature bucks, I think you are doing all you can...sounds like you have a real good thing going. You could probably stand to shoot a few more does though. Over the last few seasons, I try and shoot the does that have buck fawns if I have a choice. Whether they end up hanging around or not...who really knows. About the only remedy I can come up with is breaking down an buying 10,000 acres, so they disperse to another part of my own property! Oh yeah, I almost forgot...I work for WorldCom. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> Guess that idea's out...
Good post BSK. I think you hit it on the head. Also, something I believe on the young buck dispersal is... it is mother natures way to help cut down on inbreeding. I don't know how true this actually is but it makes sense.
FH...I agree that 2.5+ year olds would probably be full time residents....with the exception of the rut...you know how they can wander. As far as attracting mature bucks, I think you are doing all you can...sounds like you have a real good thing going. You could probably stand to shoot a few more does though. Over the last few seasons, I try and shoot the does that have buck fawns if I have a choice. Whether they end up hanging around or not...who really knows. About the only remedy I can come up with is breaking down an buying 10,000 acres, so they disperse to another part of my own property! Oh yeah, I almost forgot...I work for WorldCom. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> Guess that idea's out...
07-10-2002, 08:01 PM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Erie PA USA
Posts: 113
RE: Buck dispersment and QDM?
I own 50 acres of roughly 5000 mainly countinous acres in western NY. Some is owned by the county, logging companys, farms ect. I wanted to do some sort QDM. Do you think i am wasting my time with such a small # of acres? Want about a off limt area of 10 acres to hold deer on the poperty. HELP?? IDEAS???
Thanks
eddie
Thanks
eddie
07-10-2002, 09:26 PM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: cazenovia, NY USA
Posts: 2,973
RE: Buck dispersment and QDM?
eddiee,
50 acres is small, yet enough to make a difference. You are not going to be able to let individual bucks walk for 3 or 4 years with realistic expectations of harvesting them as mature deer, unless... you border a protected area, or have a co-op formed with other land owners.
If you do not have these things going for you, you need to take a realistic assessment of your goals. We have 160 acres, and we consider it too small for serious management. Our goals are to harvest 2-1/2 yr old bucks and the ocassional 3-1/2 yr old. Our long term goal is to get cooperation from our neighbors - then up the bar, and although slow going, some of them are coming around. Leading by example has been our best course of persuation. Remember that a co-op does not neccessarily have to be of tracts of land that are continuous. In fact, a patchwork of QDM properties can "lift up" the quality of the entire area's entire herd. Smart neighbors notice the changes and may well sign on.
With 50 acres, you can attract the better bucks and does from the surrounding properties. A 10 acre sanctuary is helpful, but will not gaurantee success. When we started seriously, 5 years ago, our goal was to make our property "the best possible habitat and food source in the area" and we are seeing the results now. With that kind of goal, and reasonable expectations, you will not be discouraged, hunting should be fun, not frustrating - keep that in mind.
PS - I'm sure you are aware of the changes in NY's hunting seasons and harvest goals this year. If not, check out my post on the NORTHEAST section. I still think that this is the beginning of major changes in NY over the next 10 years, similar to what PA and other states are doing now. If landowners like yourself, start to make the transition now towards QDM like strategies, you will be ahead of the game, and so will your neighbors when these changes become law down the road. - Just my 2 cents.
50 acres is small, yet enough to make a difference. You are not going to be able to let individual bucks walk for 3 or 4 years with realistic expectations of harvesting them as mature deer, unless... you border a protected area, or have a co-op formed with other land owners.
If you do not have these things going for you, you need to take a realistic assessment of your goals. We have 160 acres, and we consider it too small for serious management. Our goals are to harvest 2-1/2 yr old bucks and the ocassional 3-1/2 yr old. Our long term goal is to get cooperation from our neighbors - then up the bar, and although slow going, some of them are coming around. Leading by example has been our best course of persuation. Remember that a co-op does not neccessarily have to be of tracts of land that are continuous. In fact, a patchwork of QDM properties can "lift up" the quality of the entire area's entire herd. Smart neighbors notice the changes and may well sign on.
With 50 acres, you can attract the better bucks and does from the surrounding properties. A 10 acre sanctuary is helpful, but will not gaurantee success. When we started seriously, 5 years ago, our goal was to make our property "the best possible habitat and food source in the area" and we are seeing the results now. With that kind of goal, and reasonable expectations, you will not be discouraged, hunting should be fun, not frustrating - keep that in mind.
PS - I'm sure you are aware of the changes in NY's hunting seasons and harvest goals this year. If not, check out my post on the NORTHEAST section. I still think that this is the beginning of major changes in NY over the next 10 years, similar to what PA and other states are doing now. If landowners like yourself, start to make the transition now towards QDM like strategies, you will be ahead of the game, and so will your neighbors when these changes become law down the road. - Just my 2 cents.