Issue of the law...
 

Now this is an issue that I have been debating with a friend of mine so here it is, I would really appreciate input.

You are a game warden in your area and you know a child that you know his parents (for some reason or another) don't really buy groceries. This same child you see bringing in small game from the woods out of season. Do you fine the child or let him go?

My thoughts on this are that as long as he sticks to small game he should not be punished. I would just like to know what you guys would do in this situation.
Thanks,
j3k

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Talk to the parents , to be sure they are aware of the situation and Inform them they can be held accountable and issued the citation . At least that is one of the ways it is handled here , but it is up to the descrection of the officer .

RE: Issue of the law...
 

let him go if he is safe

RE: Issue of the law...
 

i would say if the kid is on private land and not taking stupid shots and not endangering someone, i would let him go. i would confront him though and let him know that he can get into trouble, and if any one else saw him and identified him that he could get in alotta trouble. tell him to lay low.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

If you let one person hunt outta season, then why not let them all? It's a tough argument.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

First I would go to the parents and tell them its their responsibility to put food on the kids plate.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

if this kid was feeding his family, then i'd buy him a case of ammo. There are some people who arent as fortunate as others.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

He would be in the back of a squad car

I can't see any other arguement making any sense, do you let kids shoplift if it's only small items? I think not

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Personally i would talk to his parents first and if no prevail i would put him in the car.Seriously if its small game today who is to say its not big game tomorrow.Poaching to me is taking game out of season.But really who do you blame the kid or the parents.Im not a mean guy just my 2 cents:(

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Well I would stop him from doing that. But then I would go speak to the parents and find out the whole story..If it was because they couldn't buy groceries then I would give them all of the roadkills that I could get. atleast then the deer that lay along all of our raodways that are fresh and not picked up and left there to rot wouldn't go to waste anymore. And I know this works cause I have a family here that has 13 foster children that I give some of what I harvest too adn any time I hear a radio call about a deer that was just struck I go and pick it up for them. No I'm not a game warden but I am in law enforcement. I also have a connection to get crop damaged deer that were harvested. But that is just what I do, and would DO.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

I agree with Extreme 1 on this ,It doesn't matter if it's a kid or not they all have to learn what's right and what's wrong. If you let them go, then the deer from your favourite heard start missing at odd times of the year. We as hunter's pay for this every year so why shouldn't they .First you approach the Family then you watch for them, It doesnt bother me that they like to live on wild game but if they don't pay as we do or go by the rule's we do then they aren't part of us as hunters and law biding citizen's .We can't make special rule's for them because we feel sorry for them.
Pat_Ely I do agree with your opinion as long as it's roadkill or along those lines
nubo

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Why aren't the parents buying groceries? Beer money? Crack money? Money on toys? Or are they that destitude? That would be the first question I'd want an answer to! (And if the parents aren't willing to provide it to me....as the game warden....I'd bet they'd provide it to child protective services.)

Next......if a man and/or woman are proud people....say too proud to accept assistance so they can eat....that's fine. But any father or mother "too proud" to insure their children have food to eat......is false pride. If you don't want "help" and are willing to go hungry....fine! But to impose that on your children is not pride......it's neglect. With all of the assistance, (private and governmental)......"the no food on the table argument" doesn't hold water. Any "man" too proud to accept assistance to insure his children are not going hungry......is proud enough to insure there is food on the table even if it requires working two or more jobs. (And is certainly "too" proud to be breaking the law.....or they have given up the "moral high ground" of their entire "too proud" argument.)

During the "great depression" and prior to the existence of public assistance programs that were designed to "prevent families from falling through the cracks".......there may have been validity to "that argument". But that is no longer true.

I have personally known a couple of handfuls of people that have "tried to use that argument" to justify "poaching". And I can honestly say that in every instance that I knew about....those families had more than one firearm. More than one automobile. Several TV's, entertainment devices, etc. in their home. In more than a couple of cases.....they had enough money for necessities like cigarettes, beer, etc. And frequently.....they had more "toys" than I did. ATV
's, boats, etc. In other words....if they had chosen to spend their money on FOOD......there wouldn't have been a problem!

Set the kid straight. Give him a recorded warning.....visit the parents and attempt to "find the problem".......and if all else fails. Write the citation...and notify any pertinent agencies as required to resolve the problem. There are legal and ethical ways to resolve difficulties!

P.S. By the way....teach them how to start, plant, and care for a garden!

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Well said Akbound !

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Since we don't know why he is doing this, I would try to find out. Also, how many of you break the law every day?? I'd say almost all of us do. Do you drive at 55 mph while in a 55 mph zone or do you push it up to 65 to 70? You know you are beaking the law but yet you still do it. We want to get to our destination faster and we know we can get away with slightly higher speeds while not getting a ticket. Do you drive closer to other drivers than you should?

This child is feeding his family by living off the land. If it were me, I would give him a warning and bring him some food. If he still does it, bring them some more food. This will increase his respect for the law while giving you a good feeling of helping others. Get your local church involved. Find out which one they go to. Many churches will assist those families in need of food.

T

RE: Issue of the law...
 

If I was a game warden and came upon a kid out hunting to feed his family I'd proably put him in my car dig in my pocket and buy some groceries and take him home.

Then I'd see what was going on in that place and if needed call the DSS in to check on the home.

If they are in such dire straits Dad should be the one hunting not some kid. If Dad and Mom are scum bags the kids need to be taken out of the home. If neither can work due to illness or injury there are programs to help.

Akbound, Very nicely put.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Under law the Game Wardens are mandatory reporters to the DSS.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

j3k2c1,

Let me ya'll 2 more cases, both actually happened.

1. My uncle and his mother (my grandmother) looked after several thousands of acres for an individual. The landowner gave them permission to do anything on the land they wanted. My uncle no longer could hunt (age and health) so he made him a couple of bird traps and when he and my grandmother wanted some quail to eat they would catch only enough for a meal. The local DNR Officer found the traps, destroyed them and told my uncle he would write him a ticket if it happend again. My uncle only traped the birds when they were not breeding, nesting, etc. This happened 30 yrs. ago. What would you do?

2. Some wealthy land owners had several cypress ponds on their property, which was duck magnets. They hired a man to bait the ponds each year for duck shoots. They would invite their friends, doctors, layers, business men, etc. The officer caught them shooting over bait and they had over the limit. This happened 2 or 3 times and each time he was told by his superiors to let them go or it was his job. This outraged the officer, but he did what he was told. This happened in the last 10 yrs. Is this right and what would you do?

dog1

RE: Issue of the law...
 

I 100% agree with akbound on this one. Taking game out of season seems to be the "norm" for the family. Do you think it will stop because somehow...someway the family gets a little extra $$ to put food on the table(if that's REALLY the case)? I tend to disagree. That family needs to learn how to ask for help. Example...here in MN(if hunting the correct areas), I'm able to shoot 5 deer. I wouldn't shoot that many becasue I don't know what the heck I'd do with the meat of 5, but if there was a family that needed meat....heck ya I'd shoot 5 and donate it to them. Heck...I'd even cut it up for them. It wouldn't cost them a dime. And I know atleast 5-10 others right now that would shoot their limit of 5 if need be and give it to them.

Tomster,
To try and compare the taking of PUBLIC game out of season or even in season and taking over-limits and speeding IMO is extremely far fetched. By speeding, I simply run the risk of getting a ticket. I'm not depleteing a public resource.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

I agree with Akbound!
The kid has learned to break small game laws, whats next? Big game and then maybe holding up 7-11's?
I also agree, find out whats going on in that home!
I've heard of the "hunting to survive" argument before! If that is OK, then just where does it stop? armed robbery, shop lifting?
as far as big game goes, in most places you can take enough game IN season to last most of the year.

As to the other two situations,
1. Uncle was breaking a game law, and the officer did him a favor by giving him a warning! Let one person break the law, why not everyone!

2. This officer had two choices, do as he was told, or go over their heads, as high as he had too! His superiors would be fired, and possibly be fined too.
The wealthy hunters would be fined and possibly have a little imbarrassment if this hit the local news!
A similar situation happened in my area a few years back. Several prominate people and elected officials were caught on tape at a local shooting resort shooting way more than the limit of ducks and geese. Not only were they fined, they lost their hunting and fishing rights and were publicly embarrassed too!

RE: Issue of the law...
 

A good friends family wasn't doing well about ten years ago. It was Christmas time,no presents etc. Well he decides at least were going to have a tree. Goes out on State land and cuts a christmas tree down. When he got to the road with there sits a DEC cop. He gets arrested and fined and his name in the paper on Christmas day.

I said "why didn't some money I would have gladly loaned/ gave you some cash" he just shrugged his pride wouldn't let him.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Stump_MN_Hunter,

I beg to differ, breaking the law is still breaking the law. Your right you could just get a ticket speeding, well if the game warden gave him a fine, isn't that the same thing? He'll probably do it again and you will probably speed again, even after the fine.

Also, the reason why 55 is legal limit, it's a known fact that speeding kills, therefore, you are taking your life and those you may hit into your own hands.

A law is a law is a law. Also, I was using it as an example, not to justify what this kid was doing. Yes he needs to be set straight and use other alternatives than the one he choose. Some people would rather break the law and shoot animals out of season than ask for assistance. The animal was provided by nature and free for the taking, why should a government agency tell me when they can hunt and not hunt? If you were lost in the woods and needed food and trapped a rabbit, cooked it, and a game warden show up and saved you, shouldn't he also fine you for killing that rabbit out of season? Somethig to ponder....

T



T

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Why don't we cut to the chase on this! Two wrongs never equal a right. No state in this country would prosecute someone for "surviving" in a "true survival" situation. And very, very, very, few poachers need to poach to "support a family". Most do it for ego......yes ego! They are a "great hunter"....(in their mind). And in every case I've ever known personally....these people had the means to feed their family...they just chose to spend their money on other things....and "steal the wildlife"!

It is the same convoluted logic being applied here that allows the leader of the greatest nation on earth to sit in front of TV cameras and comment, "it depends on what the definition of is, is". It is sorry, it is amoral, and it is "childish". Instead of accepting responsibility......make excuses! Frankly I'm disgusted with the sheer number of people in this country that are willing to make excuses, (while keeping a straight face), for just about every and any kind of behavior! And I am thankful to still have the freedom to at "least" decide with whom I'd share a campfire with!

P.S. On the whole.....what a sorry a**ed group of people we have become! Thank goodness there are still some that know the difference between right....and wrong!

RE: Issue of the law...
 

It amazes me how we can argue over what's breaking the law.

Hunting out of season ...poaching very simple

speeding for what ever reason is still speeding still very simple. Get caught speeding with a good excuse and while the cop might laugh he'll still write the ticket

RE: Issue of the law...
 

for those of you that want to report him, i have to disagree. family story here:
my grandparents had a farm here in vt., and raised 16 kids. while i am not certain how many kids they had when this was going on, it must have been quite a few. starting around august, every two weeks either my grandfather or one of the boys would have to go out, and shoot a deer, so that the family could have meat for the table. this went on for a very long time, and i would be fairly certain even over the period of a few years( guessing about that.). now one day, the neighbor came up to see what the shooting was that she always heard. my grandfather told her straight out what was going on. she asked what kind of gun he had, and left. she returned later with ammo for the gun, telling him that while she disapproved of poaching, she understood that he was only putting food on the table for his family. now, the boys didn't grow up to be outlaws, and there were eleven of them, so the story that some of you had suggested that start with small game, then 7-11, just doesn't hold water, at least in this case. you might be surprised at the boys story, it could be very similar to my family's. and as far as assisstance goes, believe me, it doesn't go very far. keep track of your own grocery bill some month, and then take half of that, and try to shop, for a month's worth of food for your family. take out most of what you have stored away first. on the second or third week tell me if you are tired of grilled cheese or macaroni every day. been there, done that, dropped a deer, and i wasn't even on assistance, but holding down a full time job! a friend of mine asked me why, and i had to tell him" you know, i just couldn't take macaroni and cheese any more". and i sure as heck wasn't living beyond my means, hell, i didn't even have a bed, just an eggshell cushion on the floor. so, reserve judgement unless you know the entire story.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

How many years ago was this? Why in the world would you have 16 kids.....if you couldn't feed them? Our little town is full of single mothers....that don't have the means to support their children. The first step in assuming responsibility is to not exceed your ability to provide for the mouths you bring into the world!

We can sit here and come up with a story to justify just about any law you'd care to break. Guess what.....it still doen't make it right! We are very good "moral relativists" anymore. Whatever happened to "right".....and "wrong"!

How responsible are you if you are breeding children you can't feed? (Don't compare what happened two, three, four, generations ago with today.....and then excuse inappropriate behavior. The great depression was one thing...2004 is something all together different. (With all the God blessed money government takes from me in taxes for social programs today.....don't tell me you can't get help! My a**!)

And don't ask for an opinion.....and then when you don't like it....tell me not to be judgemental. Talk about sanctimonious!

RE: Issue of the law...
 

I'd take the kid in as my own........

He deserves a chance at life

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Sorry kid ,
but rules are rules , and they apply to all . Parents , expect a visit from CPS in the near future .

RE: Issue of the law...
 

And I did notice you said a grandparent. Where were the parents? If something happened to the parents.....like accidental death.....or war loss....that I'd understand! But other than that.....where were the parents? And I can only assume it must have been a handful of parents.....with 16 kids!

Something tells me we are not getting the entire story! Why?

P.S. kevin1....I'm not talking to you...sorry about the (in reply to.....) above, this is in reply to vtbuckrulrss.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Again Akbound you have hit the nail on the head!
Right is right and wrong is wrong! Also you are right about being responsible for those you bring into this world!
And I will stand by my robbing 7-11's statement! Maybe in this particular case, the kid doesn't grow up to be an outlaw. However, in most cases, learning to break one law leads to breaking others!
After all, by today's logic, whats the difference? Can't afford food, so I'll steal wildlife! Can't afford food, so I'll rob someone! Stealing is stealing! If you justify one, you'll be capable of justifying the other!

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Also, too much pride to ask for assistance or ask to do an odd job, and yet you are not too proud to steal! Somethings wrong with that picture!

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Thanks for the info. YOu have definitely help me understand more fully both sides of this. Akbound-you have got the best formed opinion that I have seen on here as you back it up with more facts than anyone else.
keep them coming!
Thanks!

RE: Issue of the law...
 

hold it! those 16 kids happened to come along one by one, year after year, by natural causes occuring betwen my grandparents! maybe being french-canadians, on a hillside farm, with no power had something to do with it, or the catholic backround, plus needing all the help you can get/raise on the farm. and they did butchering of animals for the neighbors, too. this was, however, during the 30's, 40's, and 50's. the grandmothers sister had 22 kids!! just the way things happened around here back then. shooting your food, saving the money for the kids, that was very responsible. oh, by the way, while it doesn't make too much of a difference to me, i never asked for an opinion, just was putting in my two cents like everyone else. find out why he is doing it before passing judgement.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Yeah, akbound! You hit the nail right on the head! I agree!;)

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Hello there again,

I already acknowledged what happened generations ago.....particularly during the depression, and prior to "real social assistance"......was definitely different then what is acceptable today. (Check the original several posts I made)! I also said I'd attempt to "find out what the root cause of the problem(s) were". But in today's society you do not excuse poaching for the reasons it occurred generations ago! Most poaching incidents today occur simply because someone enjoys "killing out of season...or excess of limits"......or to supplement their meager groceries (that they DON'T have as a result of spending on too many toys, supporting habits......drink-smoke-etc.) If you have two or three autos in the drive, TV's in three rooms of the house, a cabinet full of guns, ATV's sitting in the yard, a boat on the dock........don't tell me you can't feed your family. While you sit there breaking open a six pack and lighting up your 2nd pack of cigarettes for the day! Bulls**t!

And I know that kids occur "naturally". My contention is they should NOT BE NATURALLY OCCURRING AT ALL......IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO CARE FOR THEM! They are not being brought into the world today by the dozens to assist with the farm anymore, (at least not the norm). Today they tend to be brought into the world as the byproduct of careless sex....in the cases that the parent(s) can't afford for their care!

So please.....read the entire thread....if you are making presumptive comments on a particular post! If you don't....don't be surprised by the responses you sometimes get in return!

No hard feelings....just opinions!

RE: Issue of the law...
 

First of all, I'm not a religous person, but I have heard on this board over and over," God put animals on this earth to feed man & woman.". I didn't know that he meant, only if it is in season or if you have a hunting license and permits.
I would get to know the kid and find out his story and try to be a friend.
The right thing to do is not always the legal thing.
I hope that none of these "Throw the Cuffs on him." people are the same ones that said to shoot the wolves in the backyard and bury the evidence in that thread "What would you do?"
To many holyrollers in this country. The law is the law, no excuses. Sounds like that movie, Judge Dread.
To many people of power creating laws to benefit themselves or the people that can help fill their pockets.
To many DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO PEOPLE.
How many people have gone to jail stealing food?
How many Cops, Judges, Politictions, Executives, Religious leaders and their families or friends get away with all kinds of crimes?
It is a sad thing that so many god fearing people are ready to stone this kid for his crimes aganist humanity.
Yet so many people will run up to a politiction and shake their hand and say keep up the good work, while they are using tax dollars for vacations, remodeling their homes, or new cars.
I have no faith in our lawmakers, or law enforcers.
Sorry. Just venting.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Wow...

If the family is truly unfortunate enough to not be able to afford groceries, parents are working, and can't afford to keep food on the table, then yes, I would rather see the kid, or anyone else in the family shoot the small game rather than rob a store, rather than robbing a 7-11.

You should make sure they know the laws though, tell them that it isn't legal, find out their situation, and if nessisary, if they truly are desperate, then just let them do their own thing, and help them out when next deer season rolls around if you have extra meat. :)

If you don't like my opinion, I'm sorry, but it's mine, not yours... Thanks!

RE: Issue of the law...
 

akbound, who'd have thought that you and I would end up on the same page and actually agree on something? :D (Just kidding, of course!)
Laws are made to be followed. If that youngster continues to poach animals, whether he's poaching big game or small, that could just create a bigger excuse for his so-called "parents" to blow even more money on things other than food.
Additionally, I taught public school for 4 years and my wife is still in education. We've both seen the results when an innocent child makes bad decisions when they're young, only to find that the world isn't as fair and nicey-nice once they grow up!
I say teach the boy a lesson now to avoid bigger problems down the road!

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Is it called poaching or subsidizing? One does what it takes to survive and for those of you who live in your concret jungle and go to Publix every day, you have no ideal what its like to depend on the land, its either that or starve. Fix a yearlings leg in the spring and comes a hard winter, its going to be food if need be. I would NOT be so quik to past judgement, unless you been their. I have seen families around here struggle to provide food for their table and so be it, but if I find out someone is poaching a trophy or wasting game, then thats a different story cause your stealing from the land and thats not right. Its just the way I look at it. Bobby

RE: Issue of the law...
 

I went to school in the late 70's with kids that had trouble with food on the table.
They did not hunt out of season or poach.
But when season opened every man jack one of them was out hunting what ever was open.
There are so many programs out there now for food there is no need to poach.
This is just my .02 but breaking the law is breaking the law if we don't
stop it who will every year more new laws are made & we as hunters have to pay.( more wardens) Higher lic. fees) ( higher taxes) to pay for this!!!
Hunting is having a enough trouble as it is without letting people getting away
with poaching.

I say stop it now before it gets totaly out of control small game today then what
big game.

RE: Issue of the law...
 

Yes, or even worse...
My point exactly.