Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I have grown up in a shotgun only area and hunted that way my whole life. I also hunt in some woods of different thickness but rarely can I see more then 100 yards from my tree stand........more likely about 70 or less. My farthest shot taking a deer was a buck I killed last year walking at about 65 yards. We just don't get to take shots over 40 yards usually.

What I am getting at is when a deer is 40 yards away you still have to be very careful with your movements and scent concerns and the slightest noise could be the difference between success and eating tags.

Now in rifle areas where guys can take shots out to and past 250 yards with no problem.........hell, you could be cooking breakfast and listening to the radio around a fire pit and still not spook a deer 300 yards away. When a deer comes out at that distance you really have no concerns about being busted by sight, smell, sound, or even movement........all you have to do is be able to shoot accurately.

So is taking a deer at 300 yards more shooting then hunting?? I would have to say so. I can't think of one hunting skill that is required to take a deer at far range........besides knowing where they are. Good marksman skills are a must for long shots like that for sure.

Opinions??

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I hunt antelope, mulies and elk and most of my shots are between 150-300yds. You are quite wrong about them not spooking at these distances. I have sneezed and the elk herd 200 yds away spooked. Have you EVER HUNTED OUT WEST?

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I didn't mean it was impossible to spook one........but if an animal is 300 yards away you would have to be doing jumping jacks in an open field for them to spot you...............and you don't really have to worry about them hearing the click of your safety ya know ;)


That must have been one heck of a sneeze


No.....Why??......do deer hear, see and smell better out there??

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I had to leave before I could mention that most of the western game animals have more acute eyesight and hearing. They are also in more open country so you can't get any closer than 200 yds most of the time.

To finish, I would say that by sitting in a stand waiting for a deer to come you are doing more of a shoot than a hunt, when compared to spot-and-stalk hunting.
Reasons:
1. Your biggest effort is put into not falling asleep on the stand.
2. The most physical activity that you will do is going to and from the stand.
3. You can't discredit long distance shooting as not hunting when we have more of a physical workout than you do -locating game, getting near game, getting a decent shot position with out spooking the game, etc.
4. Mulies, elk, and antelope all spook at distances over a mile for simple reasons as: a cough/sneeze/burp/fart, the swirling winds are MUCH worse in wide open areas and can carry your scent (even with a cover scent) over 3 miles in every direction that can cause all the game to dissapear for DAYS at a time, and to top off all of this these animals can see through the best camo when bow/muzzleloading and they spot hunter orange aat over 4 miles away.

I have had antelope spook from over 3 miles off when we ran out of brush for 15 yds. Elk have smelled us when 1 mile away. We have thought that the deer couldn't see us crouching in the tree line when they were1.5 miles off.

Have you even hunted in the west like this before? From what you have stated I am forced to say that you have not. You should know what your talking about before you put down a method of hunting. And yes I have hunted from a stand in PA, IL, IO, and VA. Personally I hate it.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I don`t think atlas was talking about spot and stalk, and I`m pretty sure he`s
talking about deer, not elk and antelope.
I have never hunted out west but that would have to be one heck of
an animal to bust you off a burp a mile away!!
I know what you are saying about hunting the wide open west and you have
to work your way in for a shot, but in a "not so wide open area" there are
still shot opportunities over 150 yds.
In that case I would agree with atlas, much more difficult to get a deer 30
or 40 yds. away.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I don't know where you hunt, but you must have some really dumb animals. You won't just walk over a hill at 300 yards talking, sneezing, standing straight up, on a bunch of antelope, deer, or elk, and expect them not to notice you and booger on out of there.

There's a saying that says, "The hunt should be the challenge..........not the shot" Could it be that bad hunters/shooters have more of a challenge shooting than hunting??????

Another way of looking at this is........If a bow's max range is 35 yards and a rifles max range is 350 yards. Is the bow hunter just shooting or hunting at 35 yards? Effective range is just, that weather it be 35 yards or 350 yards

Also don't give me this stuff about the deer (or whatever) doesn't even know your around at 300 yards. Well a deer better not know your around at 30 yards when your using a bow or you won't get him either.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I think it is a matter of "degree" and how you choose to define your hunting experience. I'm sure that most muzzleloading hunters choose to believe what they do is more "sporting" than a centerfire cartridge rifle hunter. I'm sure that most bow hunters believe they are being more "sporting" (ie. a better hunter) than a muzzleloading hunter. And I'm sure a traditional bow hunter believes he has a "tougher task" to tag...then a compound user.

It is all in the "eye of the beholder"!

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Atlasman has a good point, to a certain extent. If the guy out west, in a large open area, is with a guide, then I would have to say it's definately "shooting". However, if he's done his homework and goes out glassing the countryside, spots, stalks and bags the game himself, then he's done rather well for himself. You can't take away from the man. I would love to do that myself someday (without the guide). Two reasons for no guide.............. #1 no middle man to pay and #2 degree of difficulty (it's much greater). One more thing.....no game preserve! Too easy (sorry fellas).

Atlasman, I too hunt NY. For years I've hunted the Adirondacks and their Foothills. I haven't seen/taken many shots over 35-40 yards. You have to be silent and motionless on watch due to the fact that deer sneak right up on you. The chances of getting busted are extrememly high! Far too many hiding places. Now I hunt out in Western NY and it is a beautiful thing. I invite all my friends from the Adirondacks out here and they cannot believe the difference. We usually pass on 10-15 bucks in the first two weeks of the season. In the Adirondacks, unless you have your own SWEET plot, you can't afford to pass squat!

Bn'R

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I don't hunt with a guide, I do my homework and right now with the drought going on and with a terrible upswing in cougar population if you see a buck deer while hunting you're lucky.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I agree with Ak it is all what we are use to and unless you have done it prior it is hard to explain or really form an opinion. The fact remains less guys hunt during bow and Ml season so while the effective range is limited by the weapon the pressure, etc makes this somewhat appeased. During rifle the game has been chased by bow and ml hunters already, then throw on top the on slaught of rifle hunters on opening day and well lets just say they don't stand in the open very much. It depends on the style as well, I don't find sitting in a treestand waiting for a deer to be overly challenging, as such I hunt from the ground...but does that mean I think those who hunt in a treestand are not as good as me...hell no! I have tried it and prefer to hunt on the ground, it is my own choice and what someone else does or thinks is of no concern to me! It also depends on the area we hunt, when she is wide open shots can be close and they can be far, there are no trees for treestands and blinds may not even be an option we may opt for other techniques, such as spot n stalk or still hunting a ravine...it is different but it most definately is HUNTING.

Hey don't knock it until you try! If then after hunting the different terrain and methods you feel it isn't for you, well that is your choice to make and why yes your opinion...but it certainily don't make us shooters and you a hunter;)

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

p.s. Although I find stand hunting to be quite peaceful (a nice place to gather one' thoughts), I have to agree that's it is definately not my favorite. I love to be on the move. However, for the most part, it's way too easy to get busted in the hills with the thick vegetation and all (unless you're on drive).

Otherwise, It's almost as if you are being "the hunted".

I don't like the feeling :(

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Bucknrut-
amen! That is how I formed my opinion of hunting from the ground!

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Atlasman, I agree with you 100% on everything you said. But I think you just opened one giant can of worms. Most people who have never been close enough to there quarry to smell them will never understand just what hunting is really all about.

All right guys I got my hockey mask on, so comense with the shots.:D

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Atlasman-Your hunting experience is obviously very limited in nature.Have you ever hunted the open prairies for deer?Try walking upwind of a big buck in mid season and see if he sticks around.Have you ever hunted pronghorn?When a buck sees you at 500 yards he move away.If you ever hunt sheep you will see that bighorn rams start climbing for the summit when they see you walk into a drainage a half mile away.It's easy to theorize about things that you have not tried but reality is often very different indeed.

nyflyer-I have taken deer with my bow so I have taken them at very close range.However Once the rifle season opens and people start spooking the deer the situation changes drastically.By the way do you use a bow or a gun?With your attitude about being close I would think that in your opinion, using a firearm would be shooting and not hunting.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

You have already stated that your longest shot ever was 65 yards and have zip point squat experience at ranges much longer than 100 yds. How can you then proclaim that the deer at greater distances are not affected by motion, noise or scent? I have had deer at 50 yds and less with no apparent concern and I have had them at 250 yds and more that were as nervouse as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs. Until you have a little more background, don't be so quick to judge.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Back in the day. Before my hip went bad I would just bash them in the head with a rock. That was hunting. Now with all these new fangeled scent covers, arrows with razor blades on the end of them. Guns and the such. Well that ain't hunting, that's just killing. Good grief what a pointless thread.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

i am a rifle hunter and a deer can see a coyote at 300 yards right? so why not me? but then i hunt the bush and like my shots under 75 yards

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

i have got to agree with A5Mag12


atlasman and those who agree with him this is a close minded view in which you have voiced your complete ignorance to hunting in the west

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Na, na, na, na, na........my thing's bigger than yours! (Translated: My hunt's harder than yours.)

On this one.....I agree with the women 100 percent.....some boys never grow up!

P.S. Good grief!!!!!

P.S.S. This post was not intended for jjt....but rather all the "mines bigger than yours" fellas!

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Another "My way is better, harder, more ethical, bla, bla, bla, " thread.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Pretty broad statement!!
:( nyflyer, why do you think I prefer to hunt on the ground vs a treestand regardless of the equipment I am using (bow, ml or rifle);)

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Well, then why don't we just compare the same animals then.......let's stick to deer because they all have the same sets of eyeballs.

I never made a comparison of stand hunting vs stalking.........really has nothing to do with what I am saying.


No that is just silly.........can we discuss this like adults??

Yea.....all those hours of scouting and patterning the deer and finding the perfect spot for your stand depending on the wind must not count.


EAAAAAASY there big fella......let's get one thing very clear right now. I NEVER said that long distance kills were not hunting. Don't put words in my mouth. I said that long distance whacks are more dependent on shooting skill then hunting skill. As long as an animal is taken legally it is hunting to me and that person is a fellow hunter.

Now...........First of all your assumptions that I stand hunt all the time are wrong. I do plenty of stalking in not easy terrain. I am plenty physical and have logged my share of miles in the woods. I walk all over the woods locating the game I hunt from my stands in the off season and I have to get much nearer to the game I kill..........you have to get in good shot position with a deer 300 yards away and I have to get my gun up and shouldered with a deer right in front of me...........or draw my bow.........Once again I really don't care to debate the merits of West vs East hunting styles because we both do what we have to do in the land we find ourselves.


I just don't believe that..............if you can fart loud or bad enough to spook an animal a mile away you have bigger problems to solve.


Now your farts are covering a 3 mile circle?? ;)

You were right.......they couldn't.

I do know what I am talking about...........evidently you don't. I never even mentioned the West or stalking yet you go off on these tangents like I singled you out or something.

That helps explain your hostility ;) I don't know where IO is but I have hunted IA, PA, and NY..........what does that matter??? It doesn't matter where you are......

I am saying that sitting on a hillside watching a fire lane or open field with kill chances out to 300 yards is more a challenge to your shooting ability rather then your hunting skills.

Put a great marksman that knows Jack Squat about hunting within 250 yards of a food source and he will have a pile of deer in the truck. Put the same guy in a stand or on the ground where he has to now be very still, very quiet, scent aware, and be able to get the draw on a deer inside 50 yards without getting busted and he most likely wouldn't even get off a shot.

I am not trying to say one way is better then the other. I hunt all ways. Bow, shotgun, muzzleloader and getting a rifle this winter to go on some trips to New Mexico to hunt with my brother-in-law.

I am just using common sense and logic when I compare all methods. Archery is hardest, muzzleloader........shotgun........then rifle. All the weapons have limitations and that is what makes you rely more on your personal skill and less on the weapon as you move down the chart.

I don't pretend that taking a deer with my shotgun requires as much hunting skill as when I get one with my bow.........because it doesn't. I have to get much closer with my bow and be much more aware of movements, noise, scent etc.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Glad someone knows what I am talking about ;)

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Well as we both now understand each other fully;):D let us just drop this quite silly argument. We are both hunters plain and simple, we both enjoy the outdoors and please heaven let it stay that way!
truce?

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I don't take a bow shot over 20 personally but that is just me.........and I don't think many people would argue that a deer 60 feet away is more likely to bust you then one 350 yards away...........At 60 feet you have to worry about blinking or you might get busted.


What does that mean?? I am confused............are you saying that being 300 yards away from a deer is the same thing as being 30 yards away just because of the weapon in your hand??

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

It's all cool man............I wasn't trying to start any arguments.

You do agree that watching an open area and picking off a deer at 300+ yards is a more impressive marksman display then hunting???...........or no??

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I live in the suburbs outside Buffalo.................Not sure where Fairport is.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

In certain conditions, yes. In others it is very even such as little cover, high wind, you know the pits. Just so you know my furthest shot on a deer is a 210 yd, my furthest ever was a 350 on a doe antelope.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

So you would say that sitting on a hillside and blasting a deer at 300+ yards requires a large amount of hunting skill?? Or was it a good display of shooting skill??

Because the way I see it.........if you put a great shooting clueless hunter in that position he kills the deer, but if you put a great woodsman/hunter who is not a crack shot in that same position........he misses. Did the clueless hunter make a great hunt.........or a great shot??

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

If you would like an explanation on the fart thing here it is:

I was hunting with my dad and a friend of his for elk. We finally found a herd at about 3:00. As we are getting within 1-2 miles the wind changed at the same time this guy let off the greasiest thing I have ever smelt/herd. The elk in about 3 minutes high-tailed it right out of there. we were the only hunters as far as we could see so what would you blame it on?

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I think I am confussed...
I try and shoot all my game as close as possible. Most of the ones I do harvest don't know I am there so regardless of weapon choice am I shooting or hunting?...Wait a minute I may have just figured it out!
Is it really "Luck" (hunting) when you see your game "Skill" (shooting) when you harvest...well either or the work starts when it's down.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Interesting outlook...

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

Iowa, PA, and NY...........bow, muzzleloader, shotgun, rifle.........from the thickest crap to wide open farms. Next year hopefully a NM Elk tag.


I don't know if Iowa is considered a prairie......if not then no.


I wouldn't walk upwind of a big buck if I was hunting him ;)

I have seen tons of deer at ranges of 300+ yards...........and I have seen tons of deer up close. The ones up close tend to spook a little easier. I have put my scope on numerous deer way across the farm field we hunt and just smile when I know I would have greased them with a 270.......then I put my gun down and hope they head my way :)

It's MORE shooting then hunting........it's all hunting. Geesh guys don't get all defensive about being a hunter.......no one said you weren't.

Taking a deer with my shotgun is more shooting skill because my range is extended dramatically........this allows me more forgiveness in movements, scent, sound......all things I could NEVER get away with while hunting with my bow. Just like a rifle allows an even more forgiveness because of it's even greater range.........you don't have to worry about a deer seeing you blink or hearing your sfety click if it is 1,000 feet away.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I have zip squat experience KILLING deer at very long ranges......I have SEEN tons of them out that far.

See above. If a deer is 350 yards away you would have to be doing any of the mentioned activities in excess to draw it's attention.......even then minimal cover would at least give you enough time to make a shot before they got outta dodge.

And I have had deer come up to me while I was taking a dump...........doesn't make it a good hunting strategy ;)

You're missing the point.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I don't remember anyone saying anything about the west.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

My way is every way. Maybe that's why my opinions are this way.

When I shoot a deer at 60 yards with my gun I don't kid myself and pretend it took just as much hunting skill as killing one at 60 feet with my bow. It still took hunting skill........just a little more shooting skill.......and the farther away you get the less hunting skill is invloved and the more marksmanship comes into play.


Would you still have the same opinion if there was a rifle that shot accurately at 1,000 yards??? 2,000?? 3,000?? Surely you see my point.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

it was mentioned in your second post on this thread
not that it matters

however make sure you bring your tree stand if you get the chance to hunt elk in NM
its always brings a good laugh to the locals

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I have read this thread with with a whole lot of personal believe's, some laughs, and some bewilderment, but I just don't beleive for one moment the above quote was the reason for the game taking off. At a distance of 1-2 miles there would be no scent as it is dispersed and broken up long before it reached the animals. At that distance how in the world would you know what spooked them anyway, could have been an unseen hunter or an unseen preditor or maybe they were even shot at, if the wind was in the right direction you wouldn't hear the shot which it must have been blowing from you to them as it carried your fart to them:D I mean come on man, 1-2 miles? geeez.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

I believe you are the one missing the point. You started this whole thing stating one set of parameters then altered it bit by bit as it progressed. You put down others because they are not in agreement with your own set of hunting tactics/ethics. Every hunt in which an animal is ultimately taken eventually comes down to a test of marksmanship whether with a bow, rifle or handgun. This regardless of whether the shot is from 15 yds. or 315 yds. If you don't think you will like all of the possible answers, don't ask the question.

RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
 

First we should agree on definitions.....if the guy/gal can't make that shot (300+/- yards)...I wouldn't call him/her a "great woodsman/hunter"! That definition is reserved for the person that has the skills...including the skill to make such a reasonable shot! They might be a good woodsman...but if they can't shoot at that range with a decent, properly sighted, set up centerfire rifle...they certainly don't deserve to called a "great hunter" (A "great" hunter is one that spends the time needed to excel in "all" of their craft...not just part of it.). And yes...it would also be a fine display of shooting skill!

And before any one misunderstands....I don't personally believe in titles like "great hunter". Instead I prefer, a good hunter...an ethical hunter...a conscientious hunter...a thoughtful hunter...and the list goes on. (Great people are people that find cures for Cancer....Diabetes....or find ways to bring meaningful improvements to the lives of others.....there are not "great hunters". They are "well known hunters"....or well crafted hunters...etc.)

And I still think this thread is "about satisfying egos"......period!

P.S. What's that old saying? People with big egos..(er was that drive big cars)...have little we****.........;)