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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Hunting is hunting wheather on stand or stalking using gun or bow, rifle or shotgun.
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
ORIGINAL: jjt it was mentioned in your second post on this thread not that it matters however make sure you bring your tree stand if you get the chance to hunt elk in NM its always brings a good laugh to the locals Man that was funny :eek: |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
ORIGINAL: mdbohuntr I have read this thread with with a whole lot of personal believe's, some laughs, and some bewilderment, but I just don't beleive for one moment the above quote was the reason for the game taking off. At a distance of 1-2 miles there would be no scent as it is dispersed and broken up long before it reached the animals. At that distance how in the world would you know what spooked them anyway, could have been an unseen hunter we were the only hunters as far as we could see What he said. When you are talking about distances of miles there is no way you can say for sure what was the element that spooked them. At that range their field of vision could include entire hills, mountain sides, valleys, brush, woods and maybe even a road or two. They could have been distratcted by anything from a snake or coyote to a limb cracking in the wind or a glare of light in the eye.........hell, maybe one of the Elk farted  |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
I still dont understand why this has become an east vs. west thread.
When I read atlasman`s original post, I pictured a guy in a TREESTAND or clubhouse overlooking a big cornfield sighting in a deer at the far side at about 200 or 300 yds. Not stalking over a mountain. Did I miss the point?[&:] |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
I'm reminded of a quote I once heard. Everyone is entitled to say or think anything they want, but must except any consequences from people who do not agree.
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Atlasman,
I hunt whitetails and wild boar in Georgia with bow and gun. Most of my shots are as you described and my bow shots are within 20 yds, my choice. However, I got the opportunity to go to Colorado in 2003 mule deer hunting and I'll assure you it ain't nothing to sneeze at. Antelope season was over with but after I got my mule deer I did't tote a gun, went with my buddy til he got his mule deer, so I did some scouting for him and in the process I couldn't resist the temptation to try and stalk some antelope and mule deer. I tried some that was over 400yds away and I got busted several times by both, but had a ball. My two cents. dog1 |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
ORIGINAL: Coastie You're missing the point. You put down others because they are not in agreement with your own set of hunting tactics/ethics. Any weapon you use that increases the range that you can kill game decreases the amount of hunting skill needed to take that animal. Taking an animal by hand would require the most hunting skill, then traditional archery, then compounds, then crossbows, then shotguns, then muzzleloaders, then rifles. As the list progresses you can rely more on the weapon (if used correctly) so you don't have to get up close and personal to kill one.......when ranges of 350 yards start being discussed then you are now in almost a pure "shooting" situation because the skills needed to take game up close are not necessary at 1,000 feet away........you better be a damn good shot though!!! Just like I said before........if someone invents a rifle that shoots a mile accurately.....maybe 2 miles someday. would it require much hunting skill to kill a animal from that far away?? Hell no.........you could be doing literally anything and not effect game from that far.............just like 350 yards away........sure you can't stand up and yell at them or run around in a clown suit banging a drum........but pretty close ;) At those ranges an animals field of vision is HUGE......if you just stay still or have minimal cover by the time they pick you out of the entire hillside it's already game over. Every hunt in which an animal is ultimately taken eventually comes down to a test of marksmanship whether with a bow, rifle or handgun. Shotgun is a little more shooting (then bow) because the deer are farther away and sometimes moving (sometimes running) and I have to deal with limbs and saplings that may effect my shot.........getting a deer within range is no longer the HARDEST thing I am doing (about equal I would say). Muzzleloader is more shooting then shotgun. My range is now out to 150 yards so I can sit by open fields and just wait for something to catch my eye. It is perhaps MOST reliant on shooting skill because you only get one shot and can't cap off 4 more shells if you miss the first shot. At ranges of 150 yards I don't worry about scent, small motions or sounds like safety click for example......I worry more about making sure the gun is aimed and steady and I have my range accurate..........shooting skills, not hunting skills. Rifle is even more shooting then any mentioned yet. With ranges out to 350 yards maybe even more your main focus is on making the shot........not whether or not the deer can see you breathing or blinking or move your finger over the trigger...........it's a deer not an eagle........and I think it's fair to say that getting within 400 yards of a deer isn't the hardest thing in the world to do. I LOVE them all.........I just don't pretend they are something they are not. |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
ORIGINAL: Indiana Dude I still dont understand why this has become an east vs. west thread. When I read atlasman`s original post, I pictured a guy in a TREESTAND or clubhouse overlooking a big cornfield sighting in a deer at the far side at about 200 or 300 yds. Not stalking over a mountain. Did I miss the point?[&:] You are right on the money dude............I don't know why they are getting all bent out of shape about the east west thing. You read my post EXACTLY how I meant it. All the sudden we are off on a wild Elk, Pronghorn, farting tangent??? |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Hi atlasman,
Now, your last argument was more cogent. You took the time to not only break down differences required with different weapons systems...but to logically support each of them. I don't think you will find any one willing to attempt a "serious argument" with you that the shot itself doesn't require less skill with a centerfire rifle than say a long bow. Nor, would they argue that the hardest part of either of those is "setting yourself up" for the shot in the first place. I think where you will find argument is if you attempt to "portray" one as more "worthy" than the other. They all take varying degrees of differing skills. Some more dependent upon woodsmanship....and some more dependent upon marksmanship. But where people are willing to argue is if you attempt to say that one of those skills are somehow "better....or more ethical....or more worthy than the other skills". Each hunter decides for him or herself which form of the sport they enjoy. And that is the important distinction! If you take your chosen "form" of hunting and apply it in an ethical manner....that is what is most important. The rest is just minutia...trivial...non-important.....EXCEPT IN THE MIND OF SOME ONE ELSE! As hunters we should be policing our ranks of "outlaws". We should not tolerate the slobs. We should shun the unethical. We should NOT argue amongst ourselves over the minutia! That is what is important! You and I may be mature enough to sit here all day and argue vehemently for or against one another's position. But there may be less experienced, less mature, "less certain of the ethics of hunting", individuals sitting here reading these posts. And what "picture of our sport" do we want to present to them? When it is done ethically....all forms of hunting are equally worthwhile! And therein lies the truth. |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
akbound, I agree we are all hunters and one mans way isnt any better than
somebody elses. Heck, if I knew I could shoot 150 yds. with my shotgun there would be times that I would be sitting by the edge of a field. In reality though, I have no choice but to get in the thick stuff and hope that I can position myself for a shot within 70 yds. or so. That doesnt make my way any better than someone elses, it just means I know that I have to be extra careful with scent and movement, cause that biggun will always sneak up on me.:D |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
So is taking a deer at 300 yards more shooting then hunting?? I would have to say so. I can't think of one hunting skill that is required to take a deer at far range........besides knowing where they are. Good marksman skills are a must for long shots like that for sure
This is a pretty straight forward statement.It specifically states that no hunting skill is required to take deer at that range.It says nothing about treestands or clubhouses and does not say anything about making exceptions for hunting out west. |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
this is really dumb, and i am dummer fer reeding threw ahl dees pohsts nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.......................:D
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
......and the wheel keeps turning....
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
It's hunting.
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
its all hunting no matter which way you look at it.You purchase a tag, you have to know where the animals are,anywhich way its huting.So your saying that at short distances you dont need to be a good marksman?your sayin that you could go out with an unsighted in gun and shoot them at close distances.Its all hunting, so why dont we just all realize that?
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Personally.... no matter what TYPE of hunting you are doing if you are pursuing game and doing it in an ethically and truely life rewarding manner, you are hunting. The shot is simply an affirmation of your preparation. Face it the really fun part is over after you pull the trigger.
As for spot and stalk over tree-stand......spot and stalk maybe difficult but there have been times when getting to the ground and getting out of your coveralls in a rush 15 minutes after that coffee hits bottom can be pretty darn taxing. |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Man there are defensive people on this board. I saw your point atlasman. Don't see what the argument is over.
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
It's all hunting, to each his own. As far as I am concerned hunting from a stand that you located yourself successfully is not easy. Spot and stalk hunting out west (which I haven't had the chance to do) I'm sure is challenging. The hardest method of hunting is still-hunting. Still-hunting for deer, especially witha bow is the most challenging true hunt anyone could experience. Not to say all the other things aren't hunting. The only thing that's not hunting that people around here do is to drive out in a field and sit in a truck to hunt. Those people are not hunting. They are shooting.
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
unless of course.....they are "truly" disabled!
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
its hunting of course...shooting a deer at long range is still part of a hunt...stepping into the woods a few steps seeing a deer shooting it...its all part of hunting..sure u have to shoot it but going out there and getting the deer thats all hunting...
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Atlasman,
Fairport is about 3 miles North of Victor (exit 45 off the thruway). And yes, I do agree that picking off game @ 300 yards requires a tremendous amount of marksmanship. The question is, could a person take a deer at 300 yards without having any skills other than shooting? I believe so (that's my opinion). But I've also seen beginners walk into the woods for the first time and bag a great buck in less than five minutes (right place at the right time). I have to be honest with you, if I were to drop a deer from 300 yards, I too would be rather proud in my ability to shoot great distances. Is it still hunting? Of course it is, just presents a different type of challenge. I agree with Cisco that far too many people are being defensive. Way back in this thread I was the one that mentioned the word "west". What I should of said was "large open area". It's not east vs. west.......we love you guys out there. Heck we love all ethical hunters! So settle down cowboy:D! Bn'R |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Bucknrut-
you have the right ideas here. this thread as new people keep coming start to bring up the exact same arguments! If people were really reading the threads-I am guilty of not doing this in the beginning(yes crow tastes quite all right though:D)-they would see that what they are saying has already been played out on either side of the argument! Just realize that this is a "to each his own" type of thing... |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
The anti's that are trying to stop hunting altogether just love it when hunters fight amongst themselves.The people that originate threads like this one should think about that before posting them.Once they are posted it is only natural that each hunter will defend his style of hunting.I don't chase deer with dogs or bait big game but I do not condemn any form of legal sport hunting as long as the person has a license and follows the rules set by the fish&game department.
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Personally I thought it was a good question. This is America, "land of the free"!
Bn'R |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
This is America, "land of the free"! |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Which can all be billed to the liberals...[:@]
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
ORIGINAL: stubblejumper The anti's that are trying to stop hunting altogether just love it when hunters fight amongst themselves.The people that originate threads like this one should think about that before posting them. No one is fighting.........we are having a simple discussion that went off on a few tangents. Give me a break. What do you want us all to do Stubble???.......censor what we say and walk around on eggshells in fear of people that don't like hunting?? No thanks..........once you start doing that........they have already won. Lighten up :D |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
I don't have time to read all the replies, but i feel being capable of shooting a deer at 300 yds is just another tool/skill used in the hunt.
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Well atlasman,
After having reread your original post. And after rereading your most recent post. I'd have to agree....no more egg shells! First you define the conditions you are use to hunting in. The you describe another set of conditions, (that differs from your conditions). Then you make a blanket statement essentially saying the circumstances that are different from yours....requires "no" skill. (Your words were, "I can't think of one hunting skill that is required to take a deer that far"....or words to that effect.) Are we still "communicating" so far? You had in essence just stated that any hunter that had taken a deer that far away...required no hunting skill! (Or was there a different interpretation that some of us, less skilled than you, might have missed?) It sure read to me, and evidently quite a few others, that you thought those "hunters" were unskilled. (Except maybe for marksmanship?!?) So then when a few people point out that maybe it only required somewhat different skills than you were use to....you get fired up. You argue your point over several posts.....and then finally you throw out the "free speech" kinda defense. Or, the anti's have already won if we can't have a discussion. It kinda sounds to me as if you were first "making a statement", (which just kind of sounded judgemental)....and then argue the point. Then finally play it off to just "having a difference of opinions".....and discussing them. That is all anyone did! Have a different opinion, (or not), and then discussed them! So why does it in fact bother you if someone else's opinion is they would rather "present a united front" to the anti's.....than a "divided front"? That's their opinion! I am "kinda" left with the opinion......that it is your opinion....that it is okay to have an opinion...and state a case for that opinion......as long as it isn't different than "your opinion"! Is that the case you are making? Or shouldn't I be arguing this point.....because it is my opinion, (and not yours)? So I'm left a "little fuzzy around the edges"....because I'm not quite sure if it's okay that we do disagree with you and say so....or if we are to only comment if we do agree with you? Clear it up for me a little! Because I really did think your last comment on the original post was for opinions?!? |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
ORIGINAL: akbound First you define the conditions you are use to hunting in. The you describe another set of conditions, (that differs from your conditions). Then you make a blanket statement essentially saying the circumstances that are different from yours....requires "no" skill. (Your words were, "I can't think of one hunting skill that is required to take a deer that far"....or words to that effect.) Are we still "communicating" so far? Now if you bust your arse just to earn a shot like that then you did some work.......but sitting around waiting to pick something off on the horizon is more similar to a shooting gallery then anything else. Once again I am not condeming anyone who hunts this way.........as I would do it myself if I lived in a rifle area.............I just wouldn't kid myself into thinking it was something it isn't. Why is everyone so bent out of shape about calling a spade a spade?? Many rifle hunts require tremendous amounts of hunting skill AND great marksmanship...........some just require you be a good shot. Why do you think any Joe Shmoe can shed his business suit and pay $10,000 to sit in a fort somewhere and bag a HUGE buck??? Because all he has to do is make a good shot.........he doesn't even have to know how to spell hunting to get the job done. Now strap a treestand to his back and send him off on his own and he may never even be seen again........and certainly won't bag a big buck.........because he has no hunting skills.............which is more of a requirement in scenerio #2. You had in essence just stated that any hunter that had taken a deer that far away...required no hunting skill! (Or was there a different interpretation that some of us, less skilled than you, might have missed?) It sure read to me, and evidently quite a few others, that you thought those "hunters" were unskilled. (Except maybe for marksmanship?!?) Tell me what hunting skill is needed to sit in a blind/treestand or post up on a huge field and blast the first deer that sticks it's head out 400 yards away?? I am "kinda" left with the opinion......that it is your opinion....that it is okay to have an opinion...and state a case for that opinion......as long as it isn't different than "your opinion"! Is that the case you are making? Or shouldn't I be arguing this point.....because it is my opinion, (and not yours)? I am not the one who got all defensive here..........people started getting all nervous like I was putting down western hunting or saying rifle hunters weren't real hunters blah blah blah. If they would just read the posts and not try to read BETWEEN the lines for hidden insults they would see I was just stating my opinions about this topic.........A few guys were able to do it no problem........a few weren't. |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
And I suppose that the few guys able to do it no problem....were the ones that agreed carte blanche with you? Meanwhile others couldn't.....which would they be?
I will not argue with you that different skills aren't required in the different scenarios you described above. On that we agree! But to assume that the guy that got the 300 yard shot...had not used any skill to "put himself in that position"....is to draw a conclusion that you do not necessarily have the information to make that conclusion with! Now, if as you said, the guy walked up and paid someone else $10,000. to "set him up" in that position......your supposition would be correct. (Of course someone else might argue that he had worked his ass off the get the money to have to do that with...but that would be an entirely different argument.) But what about the guy/gal that scouted out the area...knew the deer movement habits...knew that deer crossed at point "X" at certain times of the day...more or less.....and then put themselves into the position to get that shot, (not to mention the marksmanship skill of actually making the shot)? Now...do you see my point? You can't just assume because someone capped their deer at 300 yards...that they had no hunting skills prior to making the shot! What if they didn't "just get lucky and sit there"? What if they actually "were there" because of their hunting skills? Now does a light come on!!!! That is the point some people were trying to make! I understood your point perfectly.....the first time I read it. And if you reread it "objectively" tell me again it doesn't have a trace of "this" requires more SKILL that "that"! If you still insist that your original post doesn't come across a little that way....then of course I'd owe you an apology. You can be honest....or dishonest....with me and any one else on the forum. But you will know for yourself if it doesn't come across sounding that way! It may not have been your intent...but we all know where the road to good intentions end! And this still isn't about you or I.....it's about the post! P.S. Every whitetail I've ever taken with a rifle has been under 100 yards. The furthest whitetail I ever shot was at about 115 to 120 yards with a sabot slug. (But I've killed big game at further ranges...) I do understand getting busted by a whitetail up close! |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Only one way to settle this kegs at 5 yards at dawn.
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Hey Charlie,
Who's paying the tab?:D |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Whomever you choose as your second is responsible for bringing your weapon.
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Hey Charlie,
Can you afford two kegs? And are you busy at dawn tomorrow?:D |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
I know where you can get $75 for a lost keg :D.
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
ORIGINAL: akbound And I suppose that the few guys able to do it no problem....were the ones that agreed carte blanche with you? Meanwhile others couldn't.....which would they be? I will not argue with you that different skills aren't required in the different scenarios you described above. On that we agree! But to assume that the guy that got the 300 yard shot...had not used any skill to "put himself in that position"....is to draw a conclusion that you do not necessarily have the information to make that conclusion with! Now, if as you said, the guy walked up and paid someone else $10,000. to "set him up" in that position......your supposition would be correct. But what about the guy/gal that scouted out the area...knew the deer movement habits...knew that deer crossed at point "X" at certain times of the day...more or less.....and then put themselves into the position to get that shot, (not to mention the marksmanship skill of actually making the shot)? Now...do you see my point? You can't just assume because someone capped their deer at 300 yards...that they had no hunting skills prior to making the shot! What if they didn't "just get lucky and sit there"? What if they actually "were there" because of their hunting skills? Now does a light come on!!!! And if you reread it "objectively" tell me again it doesn't have a trace of "this" requires more SKILL that "that"! I do understand getting busted by a whitetail up close! |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
Hi again,
I had read your other posts.....before I went back to the original.....just to make sure that the original wasn't stated differently...then I thought I had read it. It wasn't...and still isn't. I had, and still have no problem, with admitting on where we agree. I have no problem with admitting or understanding your argument. But I guess you are having trouble understanding how someone could misconstrue the original post you made. Your original post came across as sounding one scenario required more skill....and the other required less. And I think you.....after all the explanations.....still believe that. What many people tried, in vain, to point out is that they required "different skills" and that maybe the level of the "hunting skill" required to "set up the long shot" was not any less of an achievement. (The fact of the matter is one of the biggest bucks I ever shot I did so as he snuck under my 12' high tree stand and he may have been 15 yards at the shot. He was really close....and it had taken very little skill on my part. I had been placed on a stand by "draw" on a Federal Installation. He was close...and he was easy. So how skilled was that? The distance to the animal at the shot....does not the entire tale tell.) And of course if you run through all of your post....you did in fact run full circle in your explanations. But you never accepted responsibility for your original post coming off as saying that the deer killed at long range....required "no hunting skills". And that is in fact.....what you said! It's still there in black and white. And it really is as simple as that. You are entitled to your opinion.....just as the rest of us our entitled to ours. On this one....we are going to have to agree.....to disagree! All anyone need do is read your original post....to put things back into perspective. It is what started the debate....and you "explained all day long"....but never accepted responsibility for its contents. Yes....we have a difference of opinion! I won't continue to argue with you....not because I don't think there is validity to what I'm saying. I've just reached the conclusion I don't think "you'll" understand what I'm trying to say! |
RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
If a guy could use a rifle in Illinois it would definitely be simple target practice, although I agree that elk, mule deer etc seem to be more aware of far off threats, possibly because they are used to being hunted from far away or simply because there is a lot more room out west.
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RE: Is it hunting??..........or Shooting??
tell you what, I consider myself a fairly objective person and I would be willing to settle this dispute, my suggestion is this, one of you fellers from out west and I trade hunts, I would be more than happy to come out West and judge just exactly how hard it is to hunt elk, preferably.
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