milessurvives

Bear with me... (feel free to correct me on anything)

So I've decided to go with 30-06 due to availability and versatility. Someone mentioned bullet grain which as far as I understand higher grain=more stopping power.

So here's what I'm gonna do

Buy something bolt action, chambered in 30-06.

Any reason I shouldn't, let me know now. Also can someone please explain caliber system to me.? I don't know what's stronger 30-06,or. 308 and those are the 2 I'm focusing on.
Thanks for answering my stupid questions

Ferguson Outfitters

Buy a Rem 700 Mountain with a Supercell pad on it. It kicks less than a 30-30. Mount Talley Intergral Lows with the same Butler creek mountain sling as mentioned in your other thread. Shoot 150gr for everything, bullet construction has come a long way and if you need to pop an elk, bear, or moose, you can use a premium with one of the better projectiles. 30-06 Federal Blue box is all you'll need for most everything. Your biggest hurdle is finding a good scope that fits the long action to your liking. You most likely prefer the extended front set

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Talley-1-Sco...item51bce03d7a

Yes, stronger than the 308. Thats the cool thing about the 30-06, the cheap $14 a box ammo is better than the most expensive box of lesser calibers.
I've found this stuff to be hell on wheels for deer and priced right
http://www.winchester.com/Products/r.../X30061BP.aspx

You'll never need another rifle, you'll have plenty of cheap ammo.

No, higher grain does not mean more stopping power. There are too many factors to discuss here.

It really depends on you and not us Internet forum warriors. I can tell you that you can't go wrong with a 30-06. I can tell you a 7mm-08 generally carries more energy downrange than a 30-06. I can tell you I've seen far more DRT kills with nasty meat damage from a 95gr 243.

Nomercy448

After the bolt action with a vertical foregrip, and now dropping a .30-06 vs. 308win debate, I'm hoping this isn't a troll, but I'll take a nibble here...

This isn't necessarily true. A .45colt (revolver cartridge) with a 240grn bullet will not have the same stopping power as a .30-06 (high powered rifle cartridge) with a 150grn bullet.

Within a given cartridge, i.e. your chosen .30-06, in general yes, heavier bullets hit harder, for instance a 180grn pill compared to a 130grn, but that's not the whole story. A 200grn pill in the .30-06 eats up a lot of room in the case, and it is a lot slower, meaning it won't have as much total energy, and won't fly as flat, making your job as the shooter a bit more difficult.

To compare different cartridges, or even just different bullet weights of the same cartridge, you can look at it's Kinetic Energy, which is listed in Foot Pounds or Ft.lbs. This is sometimes just listed as "Energy". The more Energy on a given caliber (diameter of bullet), the harder it generally hits.

Another number that I personally put the majority of my interest in is the MOMENTUM of the bullet. Momentum is calculated by bullet weight in grains times velocity in feet per second divided by 7000. Tied to this is the Taylor Knock Out Factor - literally designed to be a measure of stopping power, which is the momentum equation above, times bullet diameter in inches (weight) x (diameter) x (velocity) / 7000. This number explains why a slower, larger bullet will hit harder than a faster, lighter bullet, even if the two have the same Energy. For example, a .45-70 and a .30-06 have similar Energy, but the Momentum and TKO of the .45-70 is much greater, even though it's about 1,000fps slower than the .30-06 (twice the bullet weight, and ~50% more bullet diameter).

More momentum and more energy = harder hitting.

Caliber = diameter of bullet in 100ths of an inch. So a "30 caliber" signifies a 0.30" (30 hundredths of an inch) diameter bullet. However, this is generalized over land vs. groove diameter, and sometimes, not even that accurately.

For example, 44caliber handguns like the 44mag is actually a 0.429" or 0.430" bullet. The .38 Special is actually a 0.357" bullet. The .45-70 Gov't and the .45 Long Colt are both 45 caliber cartridges, but one uses 0.458" bullets, the other uses 0.452" bullets.

Cartridge naming is about half subjective. Kinda like naming trucks. Some of it makes sense, some doesn't. An F-150 Ford, a Dodge Ram 1500, and a Chevy 1500 Silverado all make sense compared to a F-250, Ram 2500, and a Silverado 2500. 2500 is bigger, right? But what do you make of the Lincoln Mark LT, or the Chevy Colorado, Dodge Dakota???

A .300 Win Mag and a .300Whisper are both 30 caliber rifle cartridges, but without knowing something about them, you can't know by the name which one is more powerful. The "300" part gives away that it's a 30 caliber, or 0.300" lands, which would be 0.308" grooves, so a 0.308" bullet, but the rest of the name doesn't give much away.

Then there were older black powder cartridges, like the 45-70 or the 30-30 that were literally descriptive of the cartridge load. The 45-70 was actually named originally the 45-70-405, which meant 45caliber bullet, 70grains black powder, 405grn bullet.

Then there are cartridges like the 30-03 and the 30-06 where the "30" still signifies caliber, but the second part is the date of design. The .30-06 Springfield is a 30 caliber rifle cartridge designed by springfield in 1906.

Then you can get into things like the 22-250 Remington, which is a 22caliber bullet shoved into a necked down 250 Savage case. The 250 Savage was also known as the 250-3000 Savage, which was named that because it was a 25 caliber bullet that could run 3000fps with the original bullet it was loaded for. The 250-3000 Savage was actually a shortened and necked down .30-06 case itself too!

Comparatively, the .30-06 and the 308 Winchester are both 30caliber rifle cartridges, and both use the same bullets. The 308win case is actually designed based off of the .30-06 case, only shortened and running higher pressure. Because of this higher pressure allowance, the 308win can actually produce very similar results to the 30-06, but with less powder, and in a stiffer short action, instead of a long action. The .30-06 gets a slight energy/power edge when looking at heavier bullets, because it can hold more powder, and heavy bullets start to eat into the case volume in the smaller 308win.

Ooh, I almost forgot about "nato designations"... The .30-06 was also known as the 7.62x63mm Nato, and the .308win is also known as the 7.62x51mm Nato. This really illustrates the difference in length of the two cases, 63mm vs 51mm.

HOWEVER, no deer in the world will ever be able to tell the difference between the .30-06 and the 308win.

ALL THAT CRAP JUST TO GET TO THIS PART...

In the .30-06 or the 308win, well constructed bullets in the 150-180grn range will kill any big game species on the North American Continent. You're really only talking about 3 bullet weights in that range, 150, 165, and 180. There are others out there, but those 3 are the most common weights for 30 cal hunting bullets, give or take a couple grains (like some are 168's vs 165's). Both are a little light for bigger bears, moose, or long range elk, but they both have been successfully used repeatedly for this game, and aren't a bad choice at all. Both are a bit heavy for small game like coyotes, but again, they can, have, and will continue to be used for that forever onward.

165 or 168grn bullets get my favor, as they balance the good ballistic profile against weight very well. Heavier built bullets like the Nosler Partition or the Hornady Interbond make great big game bullets. Mid-size game bullets like the A-max, SST, Rem Coreloct, or SGK will produce great results on deer. Lighter built bullets like the V-max, Win BST or SMK make quick work of invading coyotes, albeit a bit messy.

So go with confidence - Remington, Savage, Ruger, Winchester, Howa, Weatherby, Vanguard, Tikka, TC, Stevens rifles in .30-06 or .308win shooting Hornady, Remington, Winchester, or Federal ammo in 150-180grns will kill any deer in the world.

Wingbone

There is no down-side to going with a 30-06. Any weight bullet you can shoot accurately out of a 30-06 will kill a deer.

Ferguson Outfitters

Thats a heck of a nibble Nomercy, the vertical grip comment was different for sure. Good info here already, I'm out again

Murdy

Great post, Nomercy.

There's really no way to tell simply by looking at a cartridge's designation which is necessarily more powerful. There really is no "caliber system." There are tables available online that allow you to compare various rounds. If you search "Chuck Hawks Table" you will get several general tables (ballistics, recoil trajectory) and manufacturers put out more specific info. For whitetails, either is a fine choice.

Ferguson Outfitters

Guess I'm not out. I typically recommend a cartridge that has more bite on the barrel end than on my shoulder end, while having a trajectory worth the recoil. A 45/70 -vs- a 30-06 would be an example of this.

HatchieLuvr

For deer, the 30-06 and 308 are essentially equal! If you didn't know it, the 308 was created from the 30/06 by simply shortening the case 1/2" so the cart would fit in a short action rifle. The only "slightly measurable" difference occurs when you are talking about bullets over 180 grains and for perhaps game over 500#. The 06 can sling 180-200-220+ grain bullets a little faster than the 308 because of it's longer case capacity. That being said, a 180grn prem bullet like a Barnes in a 308 will out penetrate most 200grn and even 220grn bullets of standard cup & core design so even that difference is essentially negated anymore.

Yes the 06 is THE universal cartridge on this side of the Atlantic so if any store sells ammo REST ASSURED they WILL have 06 before anything else! I have 2 06s and love them both, yes one of them was my very first rifle I got for Christmas as a 13yr old back in 1984. With it, yes I've killed more deer than can be counted and I still love the 06. There is an old saying, "If the 06 isn't the answer then it's a mighty stupid question!"

Personally, I'm PERFECTLY CONTENT to carry either an 06 or a 308, either with a 165grn TSX Barnes and feel COMPLETELY confident for ANYTHING on this continent except perhaps the griz/brown bears/polar bears and truth be told, more of those bears have been killed with an 06 than the rest of the carts combined! (I'd just prefer something a lil bigger and stouter were I to go specifically for the big bears, like a 338WM or even the 375H&H)

As for "heavier bullets having more power" that's not really the case. Tissue destruction and penetration is what incapacitates game animals. Many years ago when bullet technology was very elementary, yes you likely needed 180-200+grn pills in a 30 cal to get satisfactory penetration and bone breaking ability on larger game. Not so anymore tho with todays "wonder bullets" like the various monolithic solids (Barnes, Nosler Etips, Hornady GMX etc...) and even the "super bonded" bullets out there. Like I said, I just really don't think there's much need to go any heavier than 180grns today in a 30cal for ANYTHING that you are going to be shooting a 30cal at in the first place. There really aren't any tradeoffs yet you do get benefits due to lighter bullets yielding higher velocities which result in better trajectory. (The old "having your cake AND eating it to!)

Now I'm a rifle nut, I have over 15 big game rifles so I'm NOT one to ask if you are the "one gun for anything" kinda guy. I just like em ALL. My latest "thought/desire/prolly will get" will be a lightweight bolt gun for deer here in my swamp in west TN. I prefer my Marlin leverguns first and foremost for the cypress swamp. (A 336RC in 35Rem and a Guide Gun in 45-70) But I must confess I've been lusting for a carbine bolt gun in 308 (OR really one of it's spawns like the 338 Federal or the 358 Win) and at the top of that list is the new Adirondack from Kimber or the simple, rugged Ruger American Compact. Either topped by a quality 2x7 or similar glass, and I can't think of a better, quicker, lighter bolt gun for the deer woods. (Here I must admit, one of my 06s will likely soon be bored to 35 Whelen and the barrel cut back to 20". That likewise will make a great "swamp hammer" for my 220# swamp bucks!)

It's ALL good, the good Lord says we must live with ONE woman. He NEVER SAID ANYTHING about one gun, one boat, one truck, one home etc...
HL

CalHunter

First off, there aren't really any "stupid" questions if you're honestly trying to learn something. Part of learning is asking questions, considering the answers and figuring out what you still don't know/need to learn.

The responses you've received are pretty much the equivalent of grad school/Masters Degree learning combined with the even more invaluable teacher called experience. IOW, you just received the equivalent of a book that people would buy for the useful information it contains. Yes, this means we have some extremely knowledgeable people on this website and many of them posted above in response to your question.

Something else that may help you is some ballistics information to store as a bookmark or even download as a pdf file. Here's just one at a website run by Chuck Hawks.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm


And last, but not least, I don't think you could go wrong with either caliber for deer hunting. If you decide to hunt moose or grizzly bear, the 30-06 does have a little heavier bullet selection so you're already on the right track.

milessurvives

I mentioned that I'm not a hunter. I mentioned that I was a beginner. I understand the vertical foregrip thing was unusual. I'm just started out and can'tlearn without asking questions.
THANKS