.223 for Deer Hunting
10-29-2009, 12:26 PM
#111
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,304
Sorry, gotta disagree here. For every one that has posted on this subject, there are several like me who read the thread without posting. In my case, it's because I don't have enough experience to voice an opinion. It may be that no one who has posted has change his/her mind, but there are several who have learned quite a bit from following the discussion. That means it has value.
But I'm not saying which side wins.
But I'm not saying which side wins.
In fact, you're mixing up the idea of what I'm talking about. You can't just go throw details out I never talked about, then disagree with something I never said! That's just bull poop. LOL!
I'm referring to the 2-3 posters who are having a good ol' time going back and forth trying to get their points across, all the while everyone is standing their ground not changing their minds. For you to say you disagree with what I said is totally off-base and shows you can't stick to the point, ie, bone of contention, without messing it up. Essentially you are disagreeing with something I NEVER said. That's even worse than two opposing parties. It's like arguing with the guy in the mirror. LOL!
At least when you have something to disagree with, make sure you know what you are disagreeing about. LOL!
iSnipe
10-29-2009, 12:50 PM
#112
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 12,040
[quote=drockw;3488525]
I think that, when comparing apples to apples, i.e. hunting bullets designed for the game being shot, the one that's still got 2000 ft lbs of energy upon exit will likely have destroyed the most on its way through.
My original post was in rebuttal to the concept that the bullet that expends all of its energy inside the game (i.e. enters but doesn't exit) is best (perhaps I was misinterpretting what tfox had said). My belief, based solely on thinking about it, and not on any actual tests on ballistic gelatin, is that such a bullet destroys less and less tissue as it loses velocity while moving through the animal.
I was referring to the bullet only losing 500#'s of ITS energy through the process, not how much energy was transferred into the animal.
On the second quoted part, I totally agree with you and thats what I was saying... ITs how the bullet uses its KE that determines which does the most devastation. The one that destroys the most wins. Not the one that gets through by losing the least amount of energy
lol
On the second quoted part, I totally agree with you and thats what I was saying... ITs how the bullet uses its KE that determines which does the most devastation. The one that destroys the most wins. Not the one that gets through by losing the least amount of energy
lolMy original post was in rebuttal to the concept that the bullet that expends all of its energy inside the game (i.e. enters but doesn't exit) is best (perhaps I was misinterpretting what tfox had said). My belief, based solely on thinking about it, and not on any actual tests on ballistic gelatin, is that such a bullet destroys less and less tissue as it loses velocity while moving through the animal.
10-29-2009, 03:26 PM
#113
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
Thanks for proving my point
Your learning
more copying and pasting
The killing power of a bullet in flight depends entirely upon the average size of the wound it makes in the animal, and upon nothing else. The size of the wound in turn depends upon the size, weight, construction, and shape of the bullet, and the velocity with which it strikes, and upon no other details. ... We frequently see it stated that the killing power of a cartridge depends upon its energy, and tables of the properties of cartridges often give the energy of each. Now energy depends upon the weight of the bullet times its velocity, and on nothing else, and thus can have only a very distant bearing on our subject." (Townsend Whelen, The Hunting Rifle, Stackpole Sons, 1940, pg. 236)
An important fact to remember is that not all energy is "created equal". What this ultimately means is that a kinetic energy value used as a measure or threshold for lethality is practically meaningless. The character of the work done by a certain quantity of kinetic energy will be dependent upon the mass, construction and velocity of the projectile. In other words, 1000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy generated by a slow-moving rock is not as lethal as that of a bullet. Furthermore, the damage actually caused by a lesser amount of kinetic energy may easily exceed that caused by a greater quantity of kinetic energy! Expressed differently, kinetic energy has "quality" as well as "quantity". This is easier to understand in terms of heat energy, which has temperature (degrees F or C) as well as quantity (BTUs or Joules). Kinetic energy is governed by similar laws.
As further evidence of this fact, observe that when terminal ballistic experiments are scaled the velocity is held constant. Kinetic energy, mass and the dimensions are scaled, but velocity is not. In like manner pure water at standard pressure boils at 100° C, regardless of quantity. A small amount of water does not boil at a lower temperature than a larger amount. The heat required to bring a quantity of water to a boil is directly proportional to the mass of the water (just as the kinetic energy is proportional to the volume of displacement by a bullet), but the character of the work done on the water by that heat energy is determined by the temperature it produces. It is velocity, not kinetic energy, which is the quantity of greatest interest in the terminal ballistics of small arms.
The wound channel is the determing factor, not the amount if kinetic energy dumped.
Look at theses wound channel profiles. and youll understand.
Your learning
more copying and pasting
The killing power of a bullet in flight depends entirely upon the average size of the wound it makes in the animal, and upon nothing else. The size of the wound in turn depends upon the size, weight, construction, and shape of the bullet, and the velocity with which it strikes, and upon no other details. ... We frequently see it stated that the killing power of a cartridge depends upon its energy, and tables of the properties of cartridges often give the energy of each. Now energy depends upon the weight of the bullet times its velocity, and on nothing else, and thus can have only a very distant bearing on our subject." (Townsend Whelen, The Hunting Rifle, Stackpole Sons, 1940, pg. 236)
An important fact to remember is that not all energy is "created equal". What this ultimately means is that a kinetic energy value used as a measure or threshold for lethality is practically meaningless. The character of the work done by a certain quantity of kinetic energy will be dependent upon the mass, construction and velocity of the projectile. In other words, 1000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy generated by a slow-moving rock is not as lethal as that of a bullet. Furthermore, the damage actually caused by a lesser amount of kinetic energy may easily exceed that caused by a greater quantity of kinetic energy! Expressed differently, kinetic energy has "quality" as well as "quantity". This is easier to understand in terms of heat energy, which has temperature (degrees F or C) as well as quantity (BTUs or Joules). Kinetic energy is governed by similar laws.
As further evidence of this fact, observe that when terminal ballistic experiments are scaled the velocity is held constant. Kinetic energy, mass and the dimensions are scaled, but velocity is not. In like manner pure water at standard pressure boils at 100° C, regardless of quantity. A small amount of water does not boil at a lower temperature than a larger amount. The heat required to bring a quantity of water to a boil is directly proportional to the mass of the water (just as the kinetic energy is proportional to the volume of displacement by a bullet), but the character of the work done on the water by that heat energy is determined by the temperature it produces. It is velocity, not kinetic energy, which is the quantity of greatest interest in the terminal ballistics of small arms.
The wound channel is the determing factor, not the amount if kinetic energy dumped.
Look at theses wound channel profiles. and youll understand.
10-29-2009, 03:36 PM
#114
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
[quote=ipscshooter;3488614]
I think that, when comparing apples to apples, i.e. hunting bullets designed for the game being shot, the one that's still got 2000 ft lbs of energy upon exit will likely have destroyed the most on its way through.
My original post was in rebuttal to the concept that the bullet that expends all of its energy inside the game (i.e. enters but doesn't exit) is best (perhaps I was misinterpretting what tfox had said). My belief, based solely on thinking about it, and not on any actual tests on ballistic gelatin, is that such a bullet destroys less and less tissue as it loses velocity while moving through the animal.
Read my link,it explains how it works much better than I.
Think about a self protection pistol,do you want stopping power?What provides said stopping power?Read the article,it explains things quite nicely.
It is also impossible to get more out of a bullet than what is put into it.IE,it is impossible to get 11,500(or whatever your example was),You used 2500 ft/lb of ke as the example,that is ALL you can get out of the bullet.Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.Once it expends all it's energy,it is gone.If the bullet hits with 2500 ft/lb of energy and it has 2500 ft/lb stored,it will be stopped.BUT,said energy must go somewhere.
Now,if one wants to use a .223 for deer hunting,go for it.I have done it.My kids have done it but I have switched to letting the kids use higher calibers in lighter weights for obvious reasons.
By the way,my sons 3 deer this year sure are tasty.
I think that, when comparing apples to apples, i.e. hunting bullets designed for the game being shot, the one that's still got 2000 ft lbs of energy upon exit will likely have destroyed the most on its way through.
My original post was in rebuttal to the concept that the bullet that expends all of its energy inside the game (i.e. enters but doesn't exit) is best (perhaps I was misinterpretting what tfox had said). My belief, based solely on thinking about it, and not on any actual tests on ballistic gelatin, is that such a bullet destroys less and less tissue as it loses velocity while moving through the animal.
Read my link,it explains how it works much better than I.
Think about a self protection pistol,do you want stopping power?What provides said stopping power?Read the article,it explains things quite nicely.
It is also impossible to get more out of a bullet than what is put into it.IE,it is impossible to get 11,500(or whatever your example was),You used 2500 ft/lb of ke as the example,that is ALL you can get out of the bullet.Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.Once it expends all it's energy,it is gone.If the bullet hits with 2500 ft/lb of energy and it has 2500 ft/lb stored,it will be stopped.BUT,said energy must go somewhere.
Now,if one wants to use a .223 for deer hunting,go for it.I have done it.My kids have done it but I have switched to letting the kids use higher calibers in lighter weights for obvious reasons.
By the way,my sons 3 deer this year sure are tasty.
Last edited by TFOX; 10-29-2009 at 03:40 PM.
10-29-2009, 07:03 PM
#115
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Clifton, VA
Posts: 1,101
You can't even disagree properly. LOL!
In fact, you're mixing up the idea of what I'm talking about. You can't just go throw details out I never talked about, then disagree with something I never said! That's just bull poop. LOL!
I'm referring to the 2-3 posters who are having a good ol' time going back and forth trying to get their points across, all the while everyone is standing their ground not changing their minds. For you to say you disagree with what I said is totally off-base and shows you can't stick to the point, ie, bone of contention, without messing it up. Essentially you are disagreeing with something I NEVER said. That's even worse than two opposing parties. It's like arguing with the guy in the mirror. LOL!
At least when you have something to disagree with, make sure you know what you are disagreeing about. LOL!
In fact, you're mixing up the idea of what I'm talking about. You can't just go throw details out I never talked about, then disagree with something I never said! That's just bull poop. LOL!
I'm referring to the 2-3 posters who are having a good ol' time going back and forth trying to get their points across, all the while everyone is standing their ground not changing their minds. For you to say you disagree with what I said is totally off-base and shows you can't stick to the point, ie, bone of contention, without messing it up. Essentially you are disagreeing with something I NEVER said. That's even worse than two opposing parties. It's like arguing with the guy in the mirror. LOL!
At least when you have something to disagree with, make sure you know what you are disagreeing about. LOL!
And you are wrong.
10-29-2009, 10:42 PM
#117
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,304
However, while we know you're wrong and I'm right, if it does make you happy to say I'm wrong, then we'll make you happy...
I'm wrong. LOL!
Anyway, good retort.
iSnipe
10-30-2009, 07:18 AM
#118
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
Now,that I have confused some as to why your graph proves my point,I will explain.My point being penetration is NOT what we are looking for from a bullet.
I am sure most are bored with this by now as am I.But a few might still be interested in learning something.
(disclaimer,I used the wrong value of 450,240 to figure ke,I should have used 450,435,but I am not redoing the math for SLIGHT changes in ke)
This quote is very misleading at best,when looking at the graph,you will notice the top 4 have the same weight bullet,180 gr.Therefore,the one that has the highest velocity will by default have the most KE,the range is from 2786 ft/lb to 3056 ft/lb
NOW,why this proves my point.The one with the MOST ke,had the LEAST penetration in this weight range and did the MOST DAMAGE.The next closest in damage was the 2nd least amount of ke and penetration.
To add why the statement was so confusing,the bullet that had the most penetration had the greatest velocity,but it also created the least damage.(very relavent to this discussion with a .223)it had 2889 ft/lb ke and was traveling at 2945 fps.
Again,what caused the wound channel to be larger? Answer,stopping or slowing penetration to let ke do it's thing(in lamens terms)
And,the other 2 weights were considerably less with ke in the same velocity range.So,bullet weight is also is a MAJOR contributing factor.The 165 gr traveling at 2780 fps had 2832 ft /lb ke and the one traveling 2820 fps had 2914 ft/lb
[quote=zrexpilot;3488585]
Your learning
more copying and pasting
The killing power of a bullet in flight depends entirely upon the average size of the wound it makes in the animal, and upon nothing else. The size of the wound in turn depends upon the size, weight, construction, and shape of the bullet, and the velocity with which it strikes, and upon no other details. ... We frequently see it stated that the killing power of a cartridge depends upon its energy, and tables of the properties of cartridges often give the energy of each. Now energy depends upon the weight of the bullet times its velocity, and on nothing else, and thus can have only a very distant bearing on our subject." (Townsend Whelen, The Hunting Rifle, Stackpole Sons, 1940, pg. 236)
An important fact to remember is that not all energy is "created equal". What this ultimately means is that a kinetic energy value used as a measure or threshold for lethality is practically meaningless. The character of the work done by a certain quantity of kinetic energy will be dependent upon the mass, construction and velocity of the projectile. In other words, 1000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy generated by a slow-moving rock is not as lethal as that of a bullet. Furthermore, the damage actually caused by a lesser amount of kinetic energy may easily exceed that caused by a greater quantity of kinetic energy! Expressed differently, kinetic energy has "quality" as well as "quantity". This is easier to understand in terms of heat energy, which has temperature (degrees F or C) as well as quantity (BTUs or Joules). Kinetic energy is governed by similar laws.
As further evidence of this fact, observe that when terminal ballistic experiments are scaled the velocity is held constant. Kinetic energy, mass and the dimensions are scaled, but velocity is not. In like manner pure water at standard pressure boils at 100° C, regardless of quantity. A small amount of water does not boil at a lower temperature than a larger amount. The heat required to bring a quantity of water to a boil is directly proportional to the mass of the water (just as the kinetic energy is proportional to the volume of displacement by a bullet), but the character of the work done on the water by that heat energy is determined by the temperature it produces. It is velocity, not kinetic energy, which is the quantity of greatest interest in the terminal ballistics of small arms.
The wound channel is the determing factor, not the amount if kinetic energy dumped.
Look at theses wound channel profiles. and youll understand.
I am sure most are bored with this by now as am I.But a few might still be interested in learning something.
It is velocity, not kinetic energy, which is the quantity of greatest interest in the terminal ballistics of small arms
(disclaimer,I used the wrong value of 450,240 to figure ke,I should have used 450,435,but I am not redoing the math for SLIGHT changes in ke)
This quote is very misleading at best,when looking at the graph,you will notice the top 4 have the same weight bullet,180 gr.Therefore,the one that has the highest velocity will by default have the most KE,the range is from 2786 ft/lb to 3056 ft/lb
NOW,why this proves my point.The one with the MOST ke,had the LEAST penetration in this weight range and did the MOST DAMAGE.The next closest in damage was the 2nd least amount of ke and penetration.
To add why the statement was so confusing,the bullet that had the most penetration had the greatest velocity,but it also created the least damage.(very relavent to this discussion with a .223)it had 2889 ft/lb ke and was traveling at 2945 fps.
The wound channel is the determing factor, not the amount if kinetic energy dumped.
And,the other 2 weights were considerably less with ke in the same velocity range.So,bullet weight is also is a MAJOR contributing factor.The 165 gr traveling at 2780 fps had 2832 ft /lb ke and the one traveling 2820 fps had 2914 ft/lb
[quote=zrexpilot;3488585]
Your learning
more copying and pasting
The killing power of a bullet in flight depends entirely upon the average size of the wound it makes in the animal, and upon nothing else. The size of the wound in turn depends upon the size, weight, construction, and shape of the bullet, and the velocity with which it strikes, and upon no other details. ... We frequently see it stated that the killing power of a cartridge depends upon its energy, and tables of the properties of cartridges often give the energy of each. Now energy depends upon the weight of the bullet times its velocity, and on nothing else, and thus can have only a very distant bearing on our subject." (Townsend Whelen, The Hunting Rifle, Stackpole Sons, 1940, pg. 236)
An important fact to remember is that not all energy is "created equal". What this ultimately means is that a kinetic energy value used as a measure or threshold for lethality is practically meaningless. The character of the work done by a certain quantity of kinetic energy will be dependent upon the mass, construction and velocity of the projectile. In other words, 1000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy generated by a slow-moving rock is not as lethal as that of a bullet. Furthermore, the damage actually caused by a lesser amount of kinetic energy may easily exceed that caused by a greater quantity of kinetic energy! Expressed differently, kinetic energy has "quality" as well as "quantity". This is easier to understand in terms of heat energy, which has temperature (degrees F or C) as well as quantity (BTUs or Joules). Kinetic energy is governed by similar laws.
As further evidence of this fact, observe that when terminal ballistic experiments are scaled the velocity is held constant. Kinetic energy, mass and the dimensions are scaled, but velocity is not. In like manner pure water at standard pressure boils at 100° C, regardless of quantity. A small amount of water does not boil at a lower temperature than a larger amount. The heat required to bring a quantity of water to a boil is directly proportional to the mass of the water (just as the kinetic energy is proportional to the volume of displacement by a bullet), but the character of the work done on the water by that heat energy is determined by the temperature it produces. It is velocity, not kinetic energy, which is the quantity of greatest interest in the terminal ballistics of small arms.
The wound channel is the determing factor, not the amount if kinetic energy dumped.
Look at theses wound channel profiles. and youll understand.
Last edited by TFOX; 10-30-2009 at 07:30 AM.
10-30-2009, 02:15 PM
#119
Spike
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19
There are alot of much better choices out there for an adult and would not consider a .223 for deer hunting for myself. I would however not have any problem recommending a .223 for a hunter that is young (under 10) and might be recoil sensitive. If recoil is not a consideration then a .243 or larger would be recommended. Yes.....the youth needs to wait for the best possible angle, etc but isn't that an important part of deer hunting no matter what caliber you are shooting? There should be no reason for a bad shot to be taken if the adult is there to instruct on when to shoot.
10-30-2009, 03:10 PM
#120
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,695
Tfox your obviously seeing what you want too see, that graph shows me that the difference in bullets is what makes the difference not KE
Heres another graph
Note the .223 has less KE than the 30-30 and the 12 gauge slug but has a bigger wound channel.
Velocity baby !
The .223 Remington has a KE value of 1102 fpe.
The 30-30 has a KE value of 1536 fpe
The Foster type rifled slug has a KE value of 2222 fpe.
Heres another graph
Note the .223 has less KE than the 30-30 and the 12 gauge slug but has a bigger wound channel.
Velocity baby !
The .223 Remington has a KE value of 1102 fpe.
The 30-30 has a KE value of 1536 fpe
The Foster type rifled slug has a KE value of 2222 fpe.
Last edited by zrexpilot; 10-30-2009 at 03:16 PM.