243. For Whitetails
12-27-2002, 04:54 AM
#21
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenna, WV USA
Posts: 117
RE: 243. For Whitetails
I think you hit the nail on the head there boltman, slob hunters. There is a group next to us that wounds 2 deer for every one they get, using .270 and bigger, every year!!! We have put quite a few down that they have wounded. I think the slob part of it says it all. The .243 does an excellent job in the hands of a good shot, which what we all should strive for. Not just getting a bigger gun for the marginal shots. So what if you have a gun big enough to shoot one through the guts to get to the lungs, thats still a crappy shot and shouldn't be taken, ever.
12-27-2002, 09:38 AM
#23
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alexandria VA USA
Posts: 27
RE: 243. For Whitetails
DG, I agree with your premise (it is dangerous to have overconfidence in a cartridge only because of its bigger diameter).
However, I must respectfully disagree with your conclusion ~ i.e. that anyone prefering a larger caliber is not much of a hunter.
The reason why I prefer a bigger cartridge is because it allows me to take a number of difficult shots that I otherwise would have to pass up.
One of the best deer I have ever gotten was a mulie who only gave me a going away shot. I really wanted him bad, and, fortunately, that day I had my .375 and I KNEW my shot would reach the vitals ~ and it did. I recovered the 300-gr Fail Safe, beautifully mushroomed, from right underneath his chest-skin. Incidentally, it died right there, without even taking another step. It saved me a difficult tracking job and it reassured me that I had killed him humanely.
So, my point is that because I am a hunter I was able to gauge the effect of my difficult shot and make it with confidence since I knew my bullet would make it.
On the other hand, I see your point that someone who is plain unable to take deer with a .243 (in any condition) may want to stop questioning the caliber and start questioning himself.
Always comes down to:
1) What you want your bullet to do
2) What you like
3) What you shoot well
4) What has given you good results
5) Your hunting style and preferences.
In friendship,
Tom
Edited by - .333 Nitro Express on 12/27/2002 10:43:55
However, I must respectfully disagree with your conclusion ~ i.e. that anyone prefering a larger caliber is not much of a hunter.
The reason why I prefer a bigger cartridge is because it allows me to take a number of difficult shots that I otherwise would have to pass up.
One of the best deer I have ever gotten was a mulie who only gave me a going away shot. I really wanted him bad, and, fortunately, that day I had my .375 and I KNEW my shot would reach the vitals ~ and it did. I recovered the 300-gr Fail Safe, beautifully mushroomed, from right underneath his chest-skin. Incidentally, it died right there, without even taking another step. It saved me a difficult tracking job and it reassured me that I had killed him humanely.
So, my point is that because I am a hunter I was able to gauge the effect of my difficult shot and make it with confidence since I knew my bullet would make it.
On the other hand, I see your point that someone who is plain unable to take deer with a .243 (in any condition) may want to stop questioning the caliber and start questioning himself.
Always comes down to:
1) What you want your bullet to do
2) What you like
3) What you shoot well
4) What has given you good results
5) Your hunting style and preferences.
In friendship,
Tom
Edited by - .333 Nitro Express on 12/27/2002 10:43:55
12-27-2002, 12:18 PM
#25
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alexandria VA USA
Posts: 27
RE: 243. For Whitetails
DG, the reality is that the facts you speak of are not absolute truths and are very much open to debate. That's why it's hard to answer with pure "facts" and not to temper them with ANY opinion or personal experience.
And that's also the beauty of exchanging such opinions and experiences on a forum ~ otherwise anyone can buy a copy of Cartridges of the World or one of the specialized books on cartridges for game such as Boddington's N. American hunting rifles and get all the answers there.
I agree with you that youngsters should be presented with facts; but I think they would also find value in some of the opinions derived from the facts.
Fact: the .243 is a "good gun for Deer". Under the proper conditions and within its limitations. So is the .223, the .22-250 (an absolute favorite in TX), the .32 Special, the .44 Magnum and a host of other calibers many of us would consider marginal for difficult shots.
But the 7mm-08, the .308, the .270, the .280, the 30-06 etc. are more versatile calibers for deer ~ that's a fact too. Why? Because a "deer" can in fact vary in size and weight to the point where a .243 becomes marginal for a difficult body-shot, especially on the larger varieties.
Fact: the heaviest bullet available for the .243 only weighs 105 grains and its Sectional Density (SD) merely grazes the 0.250 mark. As you know, SD is correlated to a bullet's ability to penetrate. But this is where we use objective facts to make personal judgment-calls: based on these figures I would not choose to take a .243 against the largest deer, especially if it was an expensive trophy hunt and a tough shot was anticipated. That's me. Perhaps you would, and perhaps in your experience that has worked every time.
Tough shots happen. And sometimes, that's all you get ~ that's why I cited the personal example about my mulie.
"Good" is a very inaccurate, relative term. Something can be good but not ideal, especially when there are other choices. "Deer" is also a somewhat generic term, for, as you know, the big mid-western monsters are quite a different critter from some of their more svelte cousins. And their larger body-mass requires more penetration.
Bottom line: yes, the .243 is a good gun for Deer Hunting. But I think there are other choices, some of which are factually more apt for deeper penetration and therefore perhaps objectively "better" for all-around conditions.
Let me give you two "extreme" examples:
Condition A: perfect for the .243
You live in a state where you have a good, long season, and you can hunt deer in your own property or nearby. You are not a trophy hunter, and you can pick good shots or pass up difficult ones without too much regret. No reason whatsoever not to use a cartridge like the .243 ~ and you'll probably kill a deer every time you pull the trigger.
Condition B: not so good for the .243
You live in a big city, and you are a trophy hunter. You shell out the better part of $10,000 to hunt a trophy mulie in Utah. One shot at a monster is all you may get ~ no telling at what angle. You would be MUCH better served with a cartridge throwing a heavier bullet!
Tom
Edited by - .333 Nitro Express on 12/27/2002 13:48:37
And that's also the beauty of exchanging such opinions and experiences on a forum ~ otherwise anyone can buy a copy of Cartridges of the World or one of the specialized books on cartridges for game such as Boddington's N. American hunting rifles and get all the answers there.
I agree with you that youngsters should be presented with facts; but I think they would also find value in some of the opinions derived from the facts.
Fact: the .243 is a "good gun for Deer". Under the proper conditions and within its limitations. So is the .223, the .22-250 (an absolute favorite in TX), the .32 Special, the .44 Magnum and a host of other calibers many of us would consider marginal for difficult shots.
But the 7mm-08, the .308, the .270, the .280, the 30-06 etc. are more versatile calibers for deer ~ that's a fact too. Why? Because a "deer" can in fact vary in size and weight to the point where a .243 becomes marginal for a difficult body-shot, especially on the larger varieties.
Fact: the heaviest bullet available for the .243 only weighs 105 grains and its Sectional Density (SD) merely grazes the 0.250 mark. As you know, SD is correlated to a bullet's ability to penetrate. But this is where we use objective facts to make personal judgment-calls: based on these figures I would not choose to take a .243 against the largest deer, especially if it was an expensive trophy hunt and a tough shot was anticipated. That's me. Perhaps you would, and perhaps in your experience that has worked every time.
Tough shots happen. And sometimes, that's all you get ~ that's why I cited the personal example about my mulie.
"Good" is a very inaccurate, relative term. Something can be good but not ideal, especially when there are other choices. "Deer" is also a somewhat generic term, for, as you know, the big mid-western monsters are quite a different critter from some of their more svelte cousins. And their larger body-mass requires more penetration.
Bottom line: yes, the .243 is a good gun for Deer Hunting. But I think there are other choices, some of which are factually more apt for deeper penetration and therefore perhaps objectively "better" for all-around conditions.
Let me give you two "extreme" examples:
Condition A: perfect for the .243
You live in a state where you have a good, long season, and you can hunt deer in your own property or nearby. You are not a trophy hunter, and you can pick good shots or pass up difficult ones without too much regret. No reason whatsoever not to use a cartridge like the .243 ~ and you'll probably kill a deer every time you pull the trigger.
Condition B: not so good for the .243
You live in a big city, and you are a trophy hunter. You shell out the better part of $10,000 to hunt a trophy mulie in Utah. One shot at a monster is all you may get ~ no telling at what angle. You would be MUCH better served with a cartridge throwing a heavier bullet!
Tom
Edited by - .333 Nitro Express on 12/27/2002 13:48:37
12-27-2002, 03:15 PM
#26
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Winthrop NY USA
Posts: 161
RE: 243. For Whitetails
This topic comes up at least once a year. The 243 is a fast, flat, accurate caliber, more than big enough for whitetail of any size. If you can't hit the vitals of a deer, no gun will be big enough. Any deer taking a .243 slug through the lungs is dead, period. The 30-06 is a fine caliber but it has it's own disadvantages, such as a tremendous kick. A friend got his first deer this year with his '06 and he also got a nice slash between his eyes from his scope. Yes, I know he wasn't holding it properly but that's what happens sometimes with a big-kicking gun, it makes flinchers of people.
If anyone prefers something other than the 243 that's fine. But to say it's too small is simply incorrect. People take Mule deer with 243's all the time.
If anyone prefers something other than the 243 that's fine. But to say it's too small is simply incorrect. People take Mule deer with 243's all the time.
12-27-2002, 06:48 PM
#27
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In the hills of ,West Virginia west virginia USA
Posts: 887
RE: 243. For Whitetails
..Ok here is my two cents worth,ive taken two deer this
year with my 243 100 grain core-lockt rem,one a nice 6
pointer,the other a huge doe,the buck was 125 yards,
well placed bullet in the heart lung area,he ran 150
yards before dying,did not nock him down,apeared to be
miss,the doe was at 40 yards,was hit right in the lung
area bullet went clean threw,she still ran 100 yards
so you tell me???? I got both deer but what do you think
of these results,and there is no use to say it was the
bullet,or shot placement,they are a go track caliber
thank the lord for the snow,when both deer were shot
so you be the judge,and if this has not happen to
you,then you lucky....
...
..JESUS IS COMING BACK BE READY...
year with my 243 100 grain core-lockt rem,one a nice 6
pointer,the other a huge doe,the buck was 125 yards,
well placed bullet in the heart lung area,he ran 150
yards before dying,did not nock him down,apeared to be
miss,the doe was at 40 yards,was hit right in the lung
area bullet went clean threw,she still ran 100 yards
so you tell me???? I got both deer but what do you think
of these results,and there is no use to say it was the
bullet,or shot placement,they are a go track caliber
thank the lord for the snow,when both deer were shot
so you be the judge,and if this has not happen to
you,then you lucky....
.....JESUS IS COMING BACK BE READY...
12-27-2002, 08:02 PM
#28
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alexandria VA USA
Posts: 27
RE: 243. For Whitetails
Hey, nny243, I suspect you have a somewhat personal interest in this fine cartridge, so don't you mind if I pick on you! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Seriously, just for the sake of a good debate.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
This topic comes up at least once a year.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That is because it's a topic worth some discussion, as witnessed by the many contrasting opinions in this thread.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The 243 is a fast, flat, accurate caliber,<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
No argument whatsoever here.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>more than big enough for whitetail of any size. If you can't hit the vitals of a deer, no gun will be big enough. Any deer taking a .243 slug through the lungs is dead, period. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That's where we start disagreeing. Sure, a deer taking ANY bullet through the lungs is dead, period. Even a .22LR through the lungs will kill. But first, a bullet has to GET there, from angles that you sometimes can't control ~ and that's when I want more sectional density.
Let me put it another way. If I had a deer standing broadside, I wouldn't hesitate taking him with a .243, as you correctly suggest. But I wouldn't do so if the deer was presenting me with a tougher shot such as a going-away shot ~ not with a .243! This is when a cartridge throwing a heavier bullet has its place, and that is (I suspect) why some of us consider the .243 somewhat short of a 100% ideal cartridge for deer.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The 30-06 is a fine caliber but it has it's own disadvantages, such as a tremendous kick.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I never really thought of the '06 as possessing a "tremendous kick". Actually, given the fact that most .243 rifles have a lighter, shorter action than those chambered for 30-06, the recoil difference between them is probably not any more than 10ft/lbs. This is not exactly enough to warrant the title of "tremendous" to the '06!
(But then again, recoil is personal. I absolutely abhor the feel of a 7mm Magnum, while I don't mind the long, slow shove of a .375.)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If anyone prefers something other than the 243 that's fine. But to say it's too small is simply incorrect. People take Mule deer with 243's all the time.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I don't think anyone is saying that the .243 is too small for deer. Also, no one disputes that it can take mule deer. It has, it does and it will. And, as you correctly point out, it has the tremendous advantage of being VERY shootable.
However, it may not offer the penetration necessary for reaching any deer's vitals irrespective of the angle. I doubt that you yourself would choose to take a "texas brain shot" at a large deer with a .243 hoping to reach his vitals.
Again, just for the sake of a good debate. For the record, I like the .243 and I think it's a splendid cartridge.
Edited by - .333 Nitro Express on 12/27/2002 21:17:27
Seriously, just for the sake of a good debate.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
This topic comes up at least once a year.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That is because it's a topic worth some discussion, as witnessed by the many contrasting opinions in this thread.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The 243 is a fast, flat, accurate caliber,<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
No argument whatsoever here.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>more than big enough for whitetail of any size. If you can't hit the vitals of a deer, no gun will be big enough. Any deer taking a .243 slug through the lungs is dead, period. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That's where we start disagreeing. Sure, a deer taking ANY bullet through the lungs is dead, period. Even a .22LR through the lungs will kill. But first, a bullet has to GET there, from angles that you sometimes can't control ~ and that's when I want more sectional density.
Let me put it another way. If I had a deer standing broadside, I wouldn't hesitate taking him with a .243, as you correctly suggest. But I wouldn't do so if the deer was presenting me with a tougher shot such as a going-away shot ~ not with a .243! This is when a cartridge throwing a heavier bullet has its place, and that is (I suspect) why some of us consider the .243 somewhat short of a 100% ideal cartridge for deer.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The 30-06 is a fine caliber but it has it's own disadvantages, such as a tremendous kick.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I never really thought of the '06 as possessing a "tremendous kick". Actually, given the fact that most .243 rifles have a lighter, shorter action than those chambered for 30-06, the recoil difference between them is probably not any more than 10ft/lbs. This is not exactly enough to warrant the title of "tremendous" to the '06!
(But then again, recoil is personal. I absolutely abhor the feel of a 7mm Magnum, while I don't mind the long, slow shove of a .375.)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If anyone prefers something other than the 243 that's fine. But to say it's too small is simply incorrect. People take Mule deer with 243's all the time.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I don't think anyone is saying that the .243 is too small for deer. Also, no one disputes that it can take mule deer. It has, it does and it will. And, as you correctly point out, it has the tremendous advantage of being VERY shootable.
However, it may not offer the penetration necessary for reaching any deer's vitals irrespective of the angle. I doubt that you yourself would choose to take a "texas brain shot" at a large deer with a .243 hoping to reach his vitals.
Again, just for the sake of a good debate. For the record, I like the .243 and I think it's a splendid cartridge.
Edited by - .333 Nitro Express on 12/27/2002 21:17:27
12-27-2002, 08:28 PM
#29
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ione Wa USA
Posts: 274
RE: 243. For Whitetails
I personally have taken 3 deer with my 243 and none have taken a step it was all shot placement on the other hand i shot a mule deer this year that ran about 25 yards before expiring at short distances 50-100 yards the 243 will mushroom alot better than an 06 thus giving more of a hit and shocking the deer. Just for a little add in with my bullet hits ribs which it always does, i can take my fist and shove it all the way inside it so meat damage might be a problem but ribs dont have to much meat on them just stem meat basically. I personally now have moved up to a larger caliber the 300 WSM, but the choice of rifle is all up to you my friend. Just to add to the recoil bit my 243 kicks worse than my dads 06 much lighter gun!!!!!!
12-28-2002, 06:18 PM
#30
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Bar Harbor ME USA
Posts: 443
RE: 243. For Whitetails
As some have stated here, youths and ladies are using the .243 ( men too) to suggest a larger bullet isn't fair as the only youth rifles I can find are either .223 or the .243. It's by far more important that the rifle fits you to shoot proper than size of the bullet. From what I've read in magazines and onn this board the 7mm-08 would be the perfect choice for ladies and youths ..... once the manufactures chamber youth rifles in it.
I'm sure a .243 held correctly is more deadly than full size model 70 chambered in .300 Win Mag held like a pistol
I'm sure a .243 held correctly is more deadly than full size model 70 chambered in .300 Win Mag held like a pistol