RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Correction to my post. It was bluetongue that depleted the deer population in the 40's and 50's.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Had never heard that bucks didn't produce sperm cells during the summer. Another thing about the rut in our area is that you will see bucks actively working scrapes from the middle of Jan till late March or later. I've seen spotted fawns with umbilical cords in late Nov. We also have a very high deer population, too high.

Timber - you nailed it! High deer populations extend the rut, sometimes severely, especially in high doe/buck ratio areas. I will alsoadd that the author of this thread appears to be on the money with his facts. Photoperiod affects much more than deer behavior and biology - it's effects are well documented on many wildlife species.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I love research and field studies. I'm no biologist or PhD, just an Ol' farm boy that loves deer hunting and the mysteries behind them.

I have done some field studies also, but I went about it a little differently. I used the old rake the leaves away and put the scent in the middle. Then come back several days later and look at the tracks in the dirt. If there were tracts, it attracted deer and NO tracts, NO deer. I have A/I’ed last year for a fellow and he had to put his farm tractor and equipment along the fence between the buck pen and the doe pen 12 hours before the scheduled A/I. The bucks were going crazy trying to get to the doe.

I’m not bashing here either, but may I ask what the conception rates were on the doe you collected the mucous from? I know we are running around 83% and synchronization in the doe is the number one factor in conception rates. If you had collected from a doe that wasn’t cycling or didn’t take to the injections, the estrogen and LH levels would’ve been lower than the ones that did conceive. Also, what were the synchronization protocols you used? Just curious????

Here’s a little information on the seasonal male fertility cycle:
Male fertility is also seasonal and generally synchronous with antler growth cycles. Males are infertile with NO sperm production during the summer months. In response to decreasing day length in the fall, testosterone production increases which initiates spermatogenesis. Sperm production peaks at about the same time as the peak of rutting behavior. Having been to College Station, TX to complete my training on semen production and artificial insemination of white-tailed deer, I too was in disbelief when the good Dr. was telling us this. Try to collect a buck during June or July and your not going to get much of anything for sperm. In the middle of September you can get just enough quantity and quality to process into straws.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Sorry, missed the one about fawns in Nov. Yes, it is quite possible for fawns to be born in November. If you back that up 200 days for the gestation period that would put her being bred sometime in the end ofMarch begining of April. Thats not all that uncommon in whitetails.

And yes, you are correct about the herd densities and the rut carrying over till 3rd, 4th and even 5th cycles being that bucks can only produce enough sperm in 24 hours to breed 3 doe.If the buck to doe ratio are way out or wack the rut will last longer.

Very good point guys...

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

learn somethin new everday, i like someone else had mentioned had heard most of the things you talked about, it was/is very informitive though, thanks for the post

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I am not familiar with the exact protocols for collecting thesecretionsat the research facility, as I do not work there.I am simply awildlife biologist in a separatedistrict that attended the meeting; however, I can say that the success with the artificial insemination project was 85%, and this research facility is the top research center inour state when it comes to whitetails. Understand that this scentproject was done one time in one location, and as many can contest, one research project is by no means the law of the land - it is simply data that can be used and interpreted in different ways.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I respect your professionalism and your posts. I'm just having a hard time interpreting the results of the field study that was conducted. It seems like from my understanding; most of the planning and data collection was focused on the locations and areas rather then to the condition of the doe collected from. I have a few questions that keep jumping out at me….


What A/I procedure was done on the doe, Transcervical or Laparoscopic?
If done Laparoscopically, what stage of ovulation were the doe in?
If done Transcervically, what was the color of both the cervix (O/S) and the mucous collected.[/ol]

These are just a few questions I was asking myself when reading the details to your study. I’m not trying to get into a peeing match with you or pick your study apart; I’m just trying to figure out why the results you got weren’t that favorable in response to the mucous. Who knows, maybe the mucous really has no significant effect on the buck, but then again, deer are scent communicators and even lick each other’s urine, so I can’t believe vaginal secretions loaded with estrogen don’t stimulate a buck. Also, the kidneys are designed to remove chemicals and waste from the blood. When a doe gets a pulse of LH and it causes her to come into heat or estrus, wouldn’t these chemicals show up in both the urine and vaginal secretions that she is producing at that time?

85% conception is really, really good for whitetails, good job. Were they immobilized or were they run through a chute? Sorry, just tons of questions keep entering my mind in regards to the study.
Yes, many research projects can be interpreted in many ways. I’m just trying to look at the data supplied and trying to make an interpretation based on what I know. I think we need to have a better understanding of the subject before we can look at field study results and draw concrete conclusions on the findings. This is just my opinion anyway…

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

No offense taken;in truth,studies such as these SHOULD be scrutinized in order for it to be considered true science; so feel free to pick the study apart -- I have my own concerns and questions regarding the study. It should be known that there was no "black and white" conclusion drawn from this study - just data. Any number of different circumstances could have changed the outcome.

Stoneycreek - you give yourself little credit for being as educated as your posts indicate- you are far more deserving of your self-imposed title of "good-'ol farm boy". Some of the most educated people on this earth do not have aPHD, so don't feel less than anyone who does (I, by the way, do not have a PHD - just an obsession;)). Now to answer some of your questions and clarify some statements:

It's been awhile since I've had to regurgitate any of this information, so excuse anything that might be construed as innaccurate - I'll try my best - here 'goes;

"It seems like from my understanding; most of the planning and data collection was focused on the locations and areas rather then to the condition of the doe collected from."

-----Not neccessarily; the does that the secretions were taken from were part of a separate artificial insemination project occurring at that time; someone in the facility happened to suggest that they put the fresh mucous secretions from the does that were actively being inseminatedup against the rest of the store-bought scents to see if there was a difference in site visits. According to the chief researcher there, these does were at the most receptive stage of ovulation when these secretions were taken (I would have to believe him on this one - they have been doing this for a while now).


"What A/I procedure was done on the doe, Transcervical or Laparoscopic?
If done Laparoscopically, what stage of ovulation were the doe in?
If done Transcervically, what was the color of both the cervix (O/S) and the mucous collected."

------If memory serves -- transcervical; the color of the mucous was clear/milky (how do you describe a color that is both milky and clear?), and the mucous was extremely viscous. I do not know the color of the cervix - they did not elaborate on this data.

"deer are scent communicators and even lick each other’s urine, so I can’t believe vaginal secretions loaded with estrogen don’t stimulate a buck"

----------Estrogen is a hormone -- a "chemical messenger" produced by the bodythat signals other organs and glands within the body to produce, among other chemicals, pheremones. Hormones areextremely volatile chemicals, and do not have an odor associated with them (as far as I can remember). They also do not last for very long outside the body; therefore, fluids loaded with estrogen/projesterone shouldn't have any effect on the opposite sex whatsoever (unlessit is directly injected into an animal).Pheremones on the other hand are "sexual messengers" and are specificwithin species - these are what attracts members of the opposite sex. Some pest control companies distribute synthetic pheremones in a controlled area at a time when breeding of a particular undesirable insect species is projected to occurr. The males of the species are attracted to the synthetic pheremones, leaving the females of the species unbred - hence - less undesirable insects (neat huh?).

"When a doe gets a pulse of LH and it causes her to come into heat or estrus, wouldn’t these chemicals show up in both the urine and vaginal secretions that she is producing at that time?"

----------------Yes they are present, along with the pheremones as well.


"85% conception is really, really good for whitetails, good job."

-------------I wish I could take the credit - but it wasn't me!


"Were they immobilized or were they run through a chute?"

------------Immobilized.


"I think we need to have a better understanding of the subject before we can look at field study results and draw concrete conclusions on the findings."

------------I agree 100%. If anyone knew the real facts behind deer behaviorthey would be a gazillionaire in short order. Honestly, the only way to understand is to keep studying, ask questions, perform more studies,and scrutinize the results.
I believe that had this study been performed on a different site, different results would have been recorded. There are always things that could have been done different - only time will tell.

As soon as I review the tape and tabulate the dataI will post - give me a week - I'll try to hurry.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Ahh shucks, I'm blushing

I'm following what you’re saying about the pheromones but once the doe’s come into their estrous cycle they produce vaginal secretions (including estrogen) that the bucks are able to detect. These vaginal secretions may be detected on the doe, or more likely in the urine the doe passes and leaves behind. Some researchers believe that bucks may come into breeding readiness when they perform the flehmen sniff and detect estrogen from a doe’s urine, and that this detection may ensure that both the bucks and does are ready to breed at the same time. Now if this were true, then this would explain what happens to the chemical “messengers” flowing through the blood stream and being removed by the kidneys and ultimately ending up in the urine and vaginal secretions, which then is detected in the bucks vomeronasal organ which is connected to a different part of the brain then smell, hence the sixth sense.

The only misunderstanding I have with your post is, on one hand I have PhD's telling me buck can detect estrogen in the urine of doe, and then on the other hand I have another fellow telling me thatbuck cannot smell estrogen. I believe you that buck cannot smell estrogen and that is why they do the flehmen sniff to expose the estrogen molecules to the part of the brain that can detect estrogen in the doe’s urine and vaginal secretions. I also believe you with the synthetic pheromones in insects, as most insects don’t have a vomeronasal organ to detect anything other then the pheromones which they smell.

-----In regards to “milky clear mucous”-------
From the sounds of the color of the mucous, she either was just before or just after her “prime” hour. We grade the color of the mucous on a scale of 1-5. 1, being clear and 5 being cloudy or very "milky" in color. We also visually grade the cervix color on a scale of 1-5. 1, being bright red with no swelling and 5, beingpurple and swelled with the O/S swelled open. If the mucous were semi cloudy with a 4 or 5score on the cervix, I'd say she wasin her exact hour of “prime” and dropping the ovum with estrogen levels at their highest. Ifthe mucous were semi cloudy with a cervixscore of 1 or 2, I'd say she passed here “prime” hour and the estrogen levels were already fallingoff. Being that there is an 18-24 hour window for being in the “prime” there are great variances on what one considers “prime”. This is why we score the mucous and cervix color so we know for a fact she is in her hour of “prime”. We are so excited about this process and the results we have been seeing with it, that we’ve actually patented the process.

Like you, I am obsessed with deer and I'm always learning something new everyday. I like the brain storming we got going on here and it helps me look at things from a different angle. I hope you are learning as much from me as I am from you. Thank you!!

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Iam thoroughly enjoyingthis:D - I learned something as well! I have not been a part of an artificial insemination, so I find this information very inriguing. One thing is certain - your research is needed, and indeed critical in our continued understanding (or confusion)of the whitetail. As far as the detection of hormones - who knows for sure? The Jacobsen's organ probably can detect things we canonly wonder (or speculate)about! That's what's great about biology - always questions, never complete, concreteanswers.
Let's take a dog's sense of smell for example; a german shepard has millions of olfactory cells in it's nose. Studies have shown that it's sense of smell is so acute that it can detect one drop of blood in 5 gallons of water[:-]. No telling what they smell when they do what they do.I mean, after all, what does a dog get off on while smelling his owncrotch? If I could do that - I'd probably never leave the house:D. I agree - great exchanges here.