Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Lets take a look at Doe's Reproductive Physiology....

The primary messengers, which allow all of the organs involved in reproduction to communicate and coordinate, are "hormones". Hormones are protein molecules that are produced by many organs and structures in the body, usually in response to an external stimulus (such as light or smell). Reproductive hormones rise and fall at appropriate times (cycles) to ensure the female behaviorally accepts the male (is standing heat) when ovulation is about to occur, and to ensure the uterus is ready to accept and nourish the fertilized egg. Hormones also "feedback" and decrease some reproductive functions when it is appropriate, so that the ovaries do not produce and ovulate eggs needlessly when an animal is pregnant. In animals which breed only during certain seasons of the year, these hormal reproductive cycles are turned on and off accordingly.

The hypothalamus is a gland located on the ventral (bottom) surface of the brain. The hypothalamus produces several hormones that are important in regulation of various body functions, including reproduction. The primary reproductive hormone produced by the hypothalamus is "Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone (GNRH). GNRH is produced in response to daylight length (photoperiod) in animals that have a seasonal reproductive pattern. In deer, as the days get shorter and the length of daylight per day decreases, GNRH production in the hypothalamus increases, and levels of GNRH rise in the bloodstream.

The anterior pituitary gland is located in close proximity to the hypothalamus. Rising levels of GNRH stimulate the anterior pituitary gland to produce and release two hormones: Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) and Leutinizing Hormone (LH). FSH stimulates the development of egg containing follicles on the ovary. LH promotes ovulation of these follicles and initiates the development of the corpus luteum after ovulation. Stimulation of the follicle by FSH is required before LH can be effective and cause a follicle to ovulate.

The ovary produces two reproductive hormones: Estrogen and Progesterone. As a follicle develops in the ovary, it secretes Estrogen. The primary function of Estrogen is to cause the behavioral signs of heat (estrus) or receptivity to the male. Once a follicle ovulates, the remains of the follicle wall develop into a Corpus Luteum, which then secretes Progesterone. The primary function of progesterone is to prepare the uterus for implantation of the fertilized egg. The Corpus Luteum must be stimulated by Estrogen before it can produce Progesterone. Because it would be wasteful for an animal, which has already ovulated and bred, to continue to produce follicles or to ovulate, rising estrogen levels inhibit the production of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luetinizing hormone (LH), preventing both. Progesterone, produced by the corpus luteum during pregnancy, also inhibits follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and the development of follicles.

The uterus also produces a reproductive hormone from its lining: Prostaglandin F2 Alpha. If an animal does not become pregnant, prostaglandin F2 alpha is produced, which destroys the corpus luteum and thus progesterone production, and allows a new estrous cycle to begin.

The cycle of follicle development, ovulation, corpus luteum formation, prostaglandin destruction of the corpus luteum, and its repetition until pregnancy occurs is known as the Estrous Cycle. In humans, the estrous cycle is called the Menstrual Cycle. The length of the estrous cycle varies, but is approximately 21 days in most deer. Breeding occurs during “standing heat” or “estrus”, which lasts only 18-24 hours in deer. If the animal is bred or semen introduced at the proper time, the ovulated egg is fertilized in the fallopian tube. After fertilization, the embryo implants in wall of the uterus. Implantation of the fertilized egg into the uterine wall prevents prostaglandin production and the corpus luteum continues to produce progesterone, the hormone which maintains pregnancy. The uterine wall then forms a Placenta to nourish and develop the fetus.

Temperate deer species only breed and have estrous cycles seasonally. This ensures babies are born at the time of the year when food is plentiful and the environmental conditions are more amenable to survival. Nature thus required a consistent, unquestionable cue which would signal the proper time to initiate the estrous cycle and breeding. The primary stimulus initiating the estrous cycle in white-tailed deer is shortened day length, which occurs in the fall.

In Review: It is an interaction of all the reproductive organs, glands and hormones, which results in the estrous cycle. The sequence of events of the estrous cycle starts with the production of GNRH. The production of GNRH stimulates the secretion of FSH and LH. The increased level of FSH stimulates the development of follicles with subsequent increased estrogen secretion. The increased estrogen level causes a decrease in FSH and an increase in LH. The increased LH comes in a pulse and causes the follicle to ovulate and release the ovum. This causes the female to enter “estrus” or “standing heat”. The remains of the follicular wall develop into a corpus luteum, which produces progesterone. If the female is not pregnant, the uterine wall produces prostaglandin F2 alpha which causes destruction (lysis) of the corpus luteum. The corpus luteum regresses and ceases the production of progesterone. The resulting decreased progesterone level stimulates increased secretion of FSH and LH, which starts the cycle all over again.


Can anybody explain why this is importantfor proper scent collection or does anybody want to know why this is important to know as a scent user?

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Stoney, lets hear it!

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

As we now know from the reproductive physiology of the doe, the sequence of events of the estrous cycle starts with the production of GNRH. The production of GNRH stimulates the secretion of FSH and LH. The increased level of FSH stimulates the development of follicles with subsequent increased estrogen secretion. The increased estrogen level causes a decrease in FSH and an increase in LH. The increased LH comes in a pulse and causes the follicle to ovulate and release the ovum. This causes the female to enter “estrus” or “standing heat”.

Now lets take a closer look at the roles estrogen, testosterone and fall/winter metabolism plays on the mating and social ranking of white-tailed deer.

Estrogen
Once the doe’s come into their estrous cycle they produce vaginal secretions (including estrogen) that the bucks are able to smell. These vaginal secretions may be detected on the doe, or more likely in the urine the doe passes and leaves behind. Some researchers believe that bucks may come into breeding readiness when they perform the flehmen sniff and detect estrogen from a doe’s urine, and that this detection may ensure that both the bucks and does are ready to breed at the same time. This suggests that bucks may respond to estrous secretions or estrous urine as long as their testosterone levels are high, which may be as early as late August or early September, until after most of the does have been bred.
Bucks show interest in urination of females particularly during the rut and follow their investigations with a lip curl (Flehmen). Although somewhat ritualized, the purpose of the lip curl is to expose the scent to the vomeronasal or Jacobson’s organ, which assists the buck with his assessment of the doe’s reproductive stage and willingness to mate by the estrogen levels in her urine. The vomeronasal organ detects large non-volatile molecules. Because it has separate tracts to and stimulates different areas of the brain, it is properly considered the ‘sixth sense’.


Testosterone
It has been shown that a buck's testosterone level rises in the fall, and that dominant bucks have higher testosterone levels than subdominant bucks. Researchers have suggested that does can smell testosterone and protein levels in a buck's urine, and are able to determine the health of the buck by the smell; which allows the does to choose a healthy dominant buck to breed with. If this is true, urine from a healthy dominant buck should attract does, which may in turn attract bucks.

Since testosterone levels rise when the bucks begin to shed their velvet and make rubs and scrapes, and remains high as long as doe’s remain in estrous, urine with testosterone can be used throughout the rut. A buck in rut is curious about which other bucks are in its area, and may be compelled to check out any new buck scent in the area. However, because high levels of testosterone are associated with dominance, buck in rut urine may attract dominant bucks, but it may scare off subdominants.

Fall Metabolism Effects on the Buck
The higher protein levels in a buck’s urine, along with testosterone levels, give males their strong eye-watering rutting odor. As they stop feeding and mobilize fat, highly volatile ketones resulting from incomplete oxidation of fat appear in the urine. Odor therefore indicates quantitatively how hard the male is rutting and whether he is ‘spent’. The message may be significant tothefemales when selecting a mateand also to other males. When a dominant buck has an essence of being “spent” but with a strong essence of testosterone, it is more likely that a harder rutting buck in the area will investigate the scent and try to run the “spent” buck from the area. This is the distinction buck’s use to determine the over-all stamina of each other, hence the rub-urination before a full-blown fight.


Is all this making sense so far?

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Yes, I think all deer hunters should know all they can on the subject!
Thanks!

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I'm surprised that you are the only one showing any interest on the subject????

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Stony, I have been a Deer and Hog hunter for more than 50yrs.
Most hunters don't care to know, all they want to know is when
and where to kill a deer in a short week-end. They no nothing about
the animal they hunt, only what it looks like.
I have been to many seminars on these subjects.

They should know the light spectrum of a deers eye ability. Ask any hunter
how the Tatum in a deers eye functions. Most don't know.
Every gland by name and locationon a deer and what they use it for. Most don't know.
Movements and vocalizations and what they mean.Most don't know.
etc.,etc.,etc.,......

Heck, I've even taken seminars on entomology, they show you many signs in
the deer woods.
You're on the right page Stony, keep learning as much you can on the animals
you like to hunt! Thanks again!

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Rebel,
Do you mean the tapetum? The tapetum, which acts as a mirror and reflects the light not absorbed by the receptor cells when it enters the eye the first time back across the cells for a second chance. In other words, deer get to use the same light twice while humans get to use it only once.

None the less, still very good points to your post. I am willing to share my knowledge with fellow hunters, which could quite possibly make it possible to get their deer in a weekend. I know it works for my hunting buddy’s and me but we need to understand the deer's senses, reproductive cyclesand the communications that go along with them first. This is why I started off the way I did.

Thanks Rebel and looking forward to an ongoing discussion....

Come on all you guys, start asking some questions or giveme your thought!!!

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Yep! Tapetum!:DMy two fingers were going to fast!

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

The only part about your information I can't completely agree is the part about shorter days triggering the rut. There has to be more to it, either something in the genetics or something else. Where I now hunt, about 40 miles south of Montgomery, Alabama, the rut kicks in about the 15th of Jan. Just 30 or so miles east, in the Clayton, Alabama area, where I use to hunt, the rut kicks in about the first of Dec. I know of some pens in the area that have northern genetic deer in them and the rut hits late Oct. I understand that blackleg killed off a lot of deer in our area in the late 40's and 50's and they were reintroduced from a number of stocking areas. That may play into the answer.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Very good question Timber. I'm curious as to when the bucks shed velvet in both of the locations you just described? Are the bucks shedding their velvet in the same time frame or are they spread out 45 day apart also?

Thanks

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

This topic is very interesting to me .I havn't had the time to scrutinize the content.The biggest interest I have is in taking this information and using it in a practical manner to have it increase or enhance the effectiveness of my hunting.
Thank you for the information!

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

tsoc,
Thank you for the reply. I would love to go further into detail on how we have taken this knowledge and made it available to enhance your effectiveness while hunting. I am affraidthat by posting that information, itwould be taken as a marketing campaign, which would break the rules of the forum use. Feel free to contact me and I can go further into detail with you.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I'll answer if I may Stony. Timber look up Photoperiods.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I saw a nice 8 point in full velvet last week about the Al. - Fl. line. Honestly don't know about the shedding of all the deer in question, but a pen here in NW Fl. has elk, fallow deer and some Texas genetic whitetails that have allready finished shedding velvet. We put some cameras out yesterday on a new lease. Soon as we get a few bucks I'll let you know as to their status.I will try to ask a game warden I know if he has seen any bucks that have already shed, etc.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Timber,
The reason I was asking is: buck DO NOT produce sperm cells through the summer. What causes a buck to produce sperm is decreased daylength and increased testosterone. Some published protocols suggest full sperm production 60 days after the firstnight that has 12 hours of darkness. If this is the case and true, the peak of the true rut this year would be on or around November 25th here in western Pa and false rut in the middle of October. Buck and doe are desiged to peak out at the same times and that is why I was asking about the buck. You have to look at both animals to see when they are most likely to match up for breeding.

I think what you may be seeing is the fawns from that spring cycling and you are witnessing the 2nd and 3rd rut. This is just my therory and IS NOT FACTor I may be wrong all together on this issue.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Lets take a look at how the estrogen secretion can be collected and how the doe are synchronized to come into estrous earlier in the year.

First, I have been artificially inseminating cattle since I was 15 years old (I’m now 34). Having been around the procedures that go along with detecting and A/I’ing a hot cow andI knew in most all cows, they secrete a mucous from the vulva when in “heat” just, as do the doe. I have A/I’ed deer and noticed this mucous that needed to be cleared before I could A/I her. At first, I was clearing the mucous and throwing in my wastebasket. Then a light came on in my head and I started to collect it. Keep in mind, that when A/I’ing an animal, it has to be in estrus or standing heat before she will conceive and a really good indicator of this is a cloudy mucous secreting from the cervix. I can get up to 50+ swabs of mucousfrom one collection.

Now lets look at how the doe are synchronized to come into heat. When we want to bring a doe into standing heat on a certain day, we insert a CIDR (looks like a tampon) into the doe’s vaginal vault and let it in for several days. The CIDR release controlled amounts of progesterone (the hormone which maintains pregnancy) and keeps the doe from cycling. Then after several days, we pull the CIDR and give an injection of hormone, which stimulates the estrous cycle. At a predetermined length of time, we know the doe will be in standing heat and are able to collect urine and estrogen mucous from her.

Here is a photo of a CIDR being inserted.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I agree with just about everthing I've read so far. I have just one question,can you say that this can be bottled and if so how long would it last in the air.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Recurve,
Yes, it can be bottled and has been bottled for 2 years now. Without making this into a marketing campaign, I have used the stuff and had 3 buck all around me. I was hunting from the ground the second Saturday of Pa archery. I only had four arrows. Well after about 45 minutes I saw the first buck coming in. About 5 minutes later, the second and third came in. The first buck was a really nice 8-point probably in the low 130's. The second buck was also and 8 point maybe 115". The third buck a 10 point, the one I finally got, went 123 3/8". I shot 3 arrows at the first buck about 22-25 yards. I was so excited because it was the biggest buck I ever had in bow range, I shot over him twice and once under him. Now here I am flinging arrows at the biggest of the 3, fromthe ground nonetheless, and I only have one arrow left. I hear movement behind me and there stands the 10-point 10 yards broad side. I take my last arrow and keep telling myself "take your time, make a good shot". Well I pulled the trigger on the release and left the arrow fly. It was right on target and the buck piled up 45 yards from where I shot him.

Now, was it a coincidence that all 3 buck came in 5 minutes apart or just plain ol' luck? I don't know but something was in my favor.

As for how long it will keep when introduced to the air, I have no idea. I collect it and refrigerate it as soon as I can. It is shipped in a shipping coolerand the bottle is wax sealed. I ask that you keep it refrigerated until you use it. Most urine will keep for approximately 3 months when it is kept cool, at least when we test the Ph levels this is the indication we get. Also, the collection process of deer scents really determines the self-life. If it comes into contact with the feces, it will be exposed to the bacteria in the feces and is more likely to shorten the self-life. Also, just like a gallon of milk, if you leave it sit out at room temperature, it will spoil a lot faster then in the frig. Scents, at least pure urine, are just the same. By keeping it cool it has a longer self-life before getting that strong ammonia smell and turning dark in color like coffee. Keep in mind this is not a pheromone it is estrogen secretions from the vaginal vault.

Here is a picture of the 10-point I got. Anybody from Pa knows this is a nice buck for Somerset County.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

FINALLY I get to contribute something to this site!

Our researchersdid a study last year using vaginal (mucous) secretions of does during their "prime" estrousand put it up against9 brand-name scents from Wal-Mart during the secondary rut in Louisiana on an adjacent unfencedproperty next to the research center. Care was taken as not to contaminate the areas with human scent (gloves were worn, no atv use next to scent locations, rubber boots,ect.), and the sites were randomly selected throughout the 1800 acre parcel - evenly spaced, andNOT placed next to known travel corridors or game trails. Game cameras were placed at the 10 stations - each scent was rotated among the various camera sitesevery 24 hours for 10 consecutive days by our biologists, and was "refreshed" each day (again - using the utmost care in human scent elimination)

Now before anyone blasts the results, understand that this was a research project, and every effort was made to be completely unbiased. That is why the sites were placed randomly and not next to known game trails - to avoid the chances of "false triggers" that could skew the results. The mucous collected from does was FRESH - part of a separateartificial insemination project occurring at the same facility at the same time, during the same week.

The result?

Let's just say that our particular experiment didn't turn out like most hunters would hope for - or are led to believe. YES - deer did visit the scent sites. YES - some of them were bucks.Before I post the results, I would like to make 100% sure that I post the correct information. I have the study and the results taped on my digital camcorder from the day it was presented. I haven't looked at it since -- BUT I WILL REVIEW IT THIS WEEK! I will post the results of the study as soon as I can - but I will tell you now what suprised me the most - the fresh mucous collected from the known does in estrous did not produce any more deer"sightings" than some of the over-the-counter scents. If memory serves me correctly - one of the cheaper ones produced the most sightings.

Please don't take this as a bashing of anyone's thread - just something I thought I could contribute - after all, I owe ALOT to this site and the members of it who have taught me a great deal since I became a member. I look forward to sharing this information with you.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Had never heard that bucks didn't produce sperm cells during the summer. Another thing about the rut in our area is that you will see bucks actively working scrapes from the middle of Jan till late March or later. I've seen spotted fawns with umbilical cords in late Nov. We also have a very high deer population, too high.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Correction to my post. It was bluetongue that depleted the deer population in the 40's and 50's.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Had never heard that bucks didn't produce sperm cells during the summer. Another thing about the rut in our area is that you will see bucks actively working scrapes from the middle of Jan till late March or later. I've seen spotted fawns with umbilical cords in late Nov. We also have a very high deer population, too high.

Timber - you nailed it! High deer populations extend the rut, sometimes severely, especially in high doe/buck ratio areas. I will alsoadd that the author of this thread appears to be on the money with his facts. Photoperiod affects much more than deer behavior and biology - it's effects are well documented on many wildlife species.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I love research and field studies. I'm no biologist or PhD, just an Ol' farm boy that loves deer hunting and the mysteries behind them.

I have done some field studies also, but I went about it a little differently. I used the old rake the leaves away and put the scent in the middle. Then come back several days later and look at the tracks in the dirt. If there were tracts, it attracted deer and NO tracts, NO deer. I have A/I’ed last year for a fellow and he had to put his farm tractor and equipment along the fence between the buck pen and the doe pen 12 hours before the scheduled A/I. The bucks were going crazy trying to get to the doe.

I’m not bashing here either, but may I ask what the conception rates were on the doe you collected the mucous from? I know we are running around 83% and synchronization in the doe is the number one factor in conception rates. If you had collected from a doe that wasn’t cycling or didn’t take to the injections, the estrogen and LH levels would’ve been lower than the ones that did conceive. Also, what were the synchronization protocols you used? Just curious????

Here’s a little information on the seasonal male fertility cycle:
Male fertility is also seasonal and generally synchronous with antler growth cycles. Males are infertile with NO sperm production during the summer months. In response to decreasing day length in the fall, testosterone production increases which initiates spermatogenesis. Sperm production peaks at about the same time as the peak of rutting behavior. Having been to College Station, TX to complete my training on semen production and artificial insemination of white-tailed deer, I too was in disbelief when the good Dr. was telling us this. Try to collect a buck during June or July and your not going to get much of anything for sperm. In the middle of September you can get just enough quantity and quality to process into straws.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Sorry, missed the one about fawns in Nov. Yes, it is quite possible for fawns to be born in November. If you back that up 200 days for the gestation period that would put her being bred sometime in the end ofMarch begining of April. Thats not all that uncommon in whitetails.

And yes, you are correct about the herd densities and the rut carrying over till 3rd, 4th and even 5th cycles being that bucks can only produce enough sperm in 24 hours to breed 3 doe.If the buck to doe ratio are way out or wack the rut will last longer.

Very good point guys...

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

learn somethin new everday, i like someone else had mentioned had heard most of the things you talked about, it was/is very informitive though, thanks for the post

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I am not familiar with the exact protocols for collecting thesecretionsat the research facility, as I do not work there.I am simply awildlife biologist in a separatedistrict that attended the meeting; however, I can say that the success with the artificial insemination project was 85%, and this research facility is the top research center inour state when it comes to whitetails. Understand that this scentproject was done one time in one location, and as many can contest, one research project is by no means the law of the land - it is simply data that can be used and interpreted in different ways.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I respect your professionalism and your posts. I'm just having a hard time interpreting the results of the field study that was conducted. It seems like from my understanding; most of the planning and data collection was focused on the locations and areas rather then to the condition of the doe collected from. I have a few questions that keep jumping out at me….


What A/I procedure was done on the doe, Transcervical or Laparoscopic?
If done Laparoscopically, what stage of ovulation were the doe in?
If done Transcervically, what was the color of both the cervix (O/S) and the mucous collected.[/ol]

These are just a few questions I was asking myself when reading the details to your study. I’m not trying to get into a peeing match with you or pick your study apart; I’m just trying to figure out why the results you got weren’t that favorable in response to the mucous. Who knows, maybe the mucous really has no significant effect on the buck, but then again, deer are scent communicators and even lick each other’s urine, so I can’t believe vaginal secretions loaded with estrogen don’t stimulate a buck. Also, the kidneys are designed to remove chemicals and waste from the blood. When a doe gets a pulse of LH and it causes her to come into heat or estrus, wouldn’t these chemicals show up in both the urine and vaginal secretions that she is producing at that time?

85% conception is really, really good for whitetails, good job. Were they immobilized or were they run through a chute? Sorry, just tons of questions keep entering my mind in regards to the study.
Yes, many research projects can be interpreted in many ways. I’m just trying to look at the data supplied and trying to make an interpretation based on what I know. I think we need to have a better understanding of the subject before we can look at field study results and draw concrete conclusions on the findings. This is just my opinion anyway…

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

No offense taken;in truth,studies such as these SHOULD be scrutinized in order for it to be considered true science; so feel free to pick the study apart -- I have my own concerns and questions regarding the study. It should be known that there was no "black and white" conclusion drawn from this study - just data. Any number of different circumstances could have changed the outcome.

Stoneycreek - you give yourself little credit for being as educated as your posts indicate- you are far more deserving of your self-imposed title of "good-'ol farm boy". Some of the most educated people on this earth do not have aPHD, so don't feel less than anyone who does (I, by the way, do not have a PHD - just an obsession;)). Now to answer some of your questions and clarify some statements:

It's been awhile since I've had to regurgitate any of this information, so excuse anything that might be construed as innaccurate - I'll try my best - here 'goes;

"It seems like from my understanding; most of the planning and data collection was focused on the locations and areas rather then to the condition of the doe collected from."

-----Not neccessarily; the does that the secretions were taken from were part of a separate artificial insemination project occurring at that time; someone in the facility happened to suggest that they put the fresh mucous secretions from the does that were actively being inseminatedup against the rest of the store-bought scents to see if there was a difference in site visits. According to the chief researcher there, these does were at the most receptive stage of ovulation when these secretions were taken (I would have to believe him on this one - they have been doing this for a while now).


"What A/I procedure was done on the doe, Transcervical or Laparoscopic?
If done Laparoscopically, what stage of ovulation were the doe in?
If done Transcervically, what was the color of both the cervix (O/S) and the mucous collected."

------If memory serves -- transcervical; the color of the mucous was clear/milky (how do you describe a color that is both milky and clear?), and the mucous was extremely viscous. I do not know the color of the cervix - they did not elaborate on this data.

"deer are scent communicators and even lick each other’s urine, so I can’t believe vaginal secretions loaded with estrogen don’t stimulate a buck"

----------Estrogen is a hormone -- a "chemical messenger" produced by the bodythat signals other organs and glands within the body to produce, among other chemicals, pheremones. Hormones areextremely volatile chemicals, and do not have an odor associated with them (as far as I can remember). They also do not last for very long outside the body; therefore, fluids loaded with estrogen/projesterone shouldn't have any effect on the opposite sex whatsoever (unlessit is directly injected into an animal).Pheremones on the other hand are "sexual messengers" and are specificwithin species - these are what attracts members of the opposite sex. Some pest control companies distribute synthetic pheremones in a controlled area at a time when breeding of a particular undesirable insect species is projected to occurr. The males of the species are attracted to the synthetic pheremones, leaving the females of the species unbred - hence - less undesirable insects (neat huh?).

"When a doe gets a pulse of LH and it causes her to come into heat or estrus, wouldn’t these chemicals show up in both the urine and vaginal secretions that she is producing at that time?"

----------------Yes they are present, along with the pheremones as well.


"85% conception is really, really good for whitetails, good job."

-------------I wish I could take the credit - but it wasn't me!


"Were they immobilized or were they run through a chute?"

------------Immobilized.


"I think we need to have a better understanding of the subject before we can look at field study results and draw concrete conclusions on the findings."

------------I agree 100%. If anyone knew the real facts behind deer behaviorthey would be a gazillionaire in short order. Honestly, the only way to understand is to keep studying, ask questions, perform more studies,and scrutinize the results.
I believe that had this study been performed on a different site, different results would have been recorded. There are always things that could have been done different - only time will tell.

As soon as I review the tape and tabulate the dataI will post - give me a week - I'll try to hurry.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Ahh shucks, I'm blushing

I'm following what you’re saying about the pheromones but once the doe’s come into their estrous cycle they produce vaginal secretions (including estrogen) that the bucks are able to detect. These vaginal secretions may be detected on the doe, or more likely in the urine the doe passes and leaves behind. Some researchers believe that bucks may come into breeding readiness when they perform the flehmen sniff and detect estrogen from a doe’s urine, and that this detection may ensure that both the bucks and does are ready to breed at the same time. Now if this were true, then this would explain what happens to the chemical “messengers” flowing through the blood stream and being removed by the kidneys and ultimately ending up in the urine and vaginal secretions, which then is detected in the bucks vomeronasal organ which is connected to a different part of the brain then smell, hence the sixth sense.

The only misunderstanding I have with your post is, on one hand I have PhD's telling me buck can detect estrogen in the urine of doe, and then on the other hand I have another fellow telling me thatbuck cannot smell estrogen. I believe you that buck cannot smell estrogen and that is why they do the flehmen sniff to expose the estrogen molecules to the part of the brain that can detect estrogen in the doe’s urine and vaginal secretions. I also believe you with the synthetic pheromones in insects, as most insects don’t have a vomeronasal organ to detect anything other then the pheromones which they smell.

-----In regards to “milky clear mucous”-------
From the sounds of the color of the mucous, she either was just before or just after her “prime” hour. We grade the color of the mucous on a scale of 1-5. 1, being clear and 5 being cloudy or very "milky" in color. We also visually grade the cervix color on a scale of 1-5. 1, being bright red with no swelling and 5, beingpurple and swelled with the O/S swelled open. If the mucous were semi cloudy with a 4 or 5score on the cervix, I'd say she wasin her exact hour of “prime” and dropping the ovum with estrogen levels at their highest. Ifthe mucous were semi cloudy with a cervixscore of 1 or 2, I'd say she passed here “prime” hour and the estrogen levels were already fallingoff. Being that there is an 18-24 hour window for being in the “prime” there are great variances on what one considers “prime”. This is why we score the mucous and cervix color so we know for a fact she is in her hour of “prime”. We are so excited about this process and the results we have been seeing with it, that we’ve actually patented the process.

Like you, I am obsessed with deer and I'm always learning something new everyday. I like the brain storming we got going on here and it helps me look at things from a different angle. I hope you are learning as much from me as I am from you. Thank you!!

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Iam thoroughly enjoyingthis:D - I learned something as well! I have not been a part of an artificial insemination, so I find this information very inriguing. One thing is certain - your research is needed, and indeed critical in our continued understanding (or confusion)of the whitetail. As far as the detection of hormones - who knows for sure? The Jacobsen's organ probably can detect things we canonly wonder (or speculate)about! That's what's great about biology - always questions, never complete, concreteanswers.
Let's take a dog's sense of smell for example; a german shepard has millions of olfactory cells in it's nose. Studies have shown that it's sense of smell is so acute that it can detect one drop of blood in 5 gallons of water[:-]. No telling what they smell when they do what they do.I mean, after all, what does a dog get off on while smelling his owncrotch? If I could do that - I'd probably never leave the house:D. I agree - great exchanges here.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Big John, I KNEW I could find you here, talking deer as usual. Not too many guys know how to talk about sense of smell VS that sixth sense like you do. How a deer can break down all those indicators out there like the sensor in a computer driven devise is amazing. Itslike a grizzly feeding inside the rib cage of a winterkill moose and suddenly bolting, because he got wind of you 300 some odd yards upwind. How could he even detect you amid the stench of that carcass, no less sort it all out, and determine it to be danger? It truly is amazing.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Yep, I don't think I'd leave the house either :D

Now, here’s my theory on why I think the estrogen scents work. When a buck comes into contact with a freshly laid scent, he immediately licks up a sample of the urine and does a flehmen sniff to test/detect the reproductive state of the doe. If he detects the doe is close to or in estrus, he focuses on the smell of her urine and the scent of her interdigital glands. He then, nose to the ground, starts tracking the hot doe in hopes of finding herand breeding her. But here’s the problem we have in the use of setting up fake scent trails. In order to collect interdigital scents from a doe, the same doe, you would have to cut her feet off to make a tincture of musk from them. That’s just not a justifiable reason to cull a deer. What we have figured out and it seems to work; by putting little fingers (so to speak) on the floor of the collection stalls, that rubs and collects the secretions from the foot, we are able to collect small amounts of the waxy secretions. Now we don’t need to cull the animal just to collect the interdigital secretions from the same doe that the urine and vaginal secretions are coming from.

I already know what you’re going to say, pheromones only last a few minutes when exposed to the air……. Yes this is right. What we are actually trying to collect is the substance and then adding it to a scent. It’s not a pheromone but it’s as close as we can get.

So now we have a scent that contains the estrogen, and also a scent that contains the secretions from the interdigital glands from the same doe. How would we do a field study on this? Well, we would take the scent that contains the estrogen and put it on a scrape, scrape line, rub line or a trail that is regularly used by buck. Then we would take the scent that contains the interdigital scent and use a trail drag and make a trail to our hunting location or stand. About half way to the stand, while making a scent trail, you would put out a little more scent that contains the estrogen, to reinsure the buck he is on a hot doe, then finish the scent trail to your stand. Put a little more estrogen scent about 15-20 yards from your stand and sit and wait. When the buck comes up the line with his nose to the ground and stops, does his flehmen sniff; he’s 15-20 yards from your stand. If you get the buck, the results are easy to understand. If you don’t see a buck then again, the results are easy to understand. Yes, I know this sounds a lot like the magic beans Jack used, but it seems to be working for us anyway. One buck that makes Pa record book for a bow kill and working on the second this year.

What do you think? Do you think it sound like a lot of details went into this theory? If you think I’m crazy on the doe theory, just wait till you get me started onmy buck urine theory…;)

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

Bill, are you suggesting that I smell that bad as the bear could smell me over the stench of the dead moose from 300 yards away? :D

How you doing, it’s kind of funny running into you on here. I just found this site about a week ago and I’m already learning a ton of stuff from all these great folks. I happened across a thread about Wal-Mart scents and have been hooked ever since.

Talk to you again soon,
John

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I don't think you are crazy, but I would like to hear aboutyour buck theory. Yes - a lot of details, and good ones too. Test, report, scrutinize, test, report.................
I believe that both you and I are viewed as completely insane by the wives - that's a good thing -- it keeps them guessing.

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I would love to get some of these scent to you for you to try out this year, and then you can let me know what you think. Could you forward me a shipping address and as soon as we start collecting, I will send some to you?

You can e-mail me at [email protected]

I will also tell you my therories on buck urine. I would love to talk with you in person/phone and go even further into details. Would you entertian a phone call from me?

Thanks

RE: Doe's Reproductive Physiology and proper scent collection...
 

I sent you an email, let me know if you didn't get it.