I think I live in the real east side of the state....and over here...it's any bull

Ryan, I think it's purely motivated by money that they have the Spike only Eastern hunts. Do you ever see many pictures of the" Spikes" taken in EW? Not many but you do see a lot of big bulls taken over there,at least I do. They get you to pony up an extra $5 a whack to put in for those permit draws. And look at the amount of people that put in. Comes to a lot of money. I've heard a lot of animal biologist say it's not the best way to manage a herd and to lookat Arizona and New Mexico they have a lot of 4 point or better resrtictions and look at the size of the Bulls and their herds? In fact our own WDFW will contradict themselves to. Pay attention to the articles they put out in various magazines this fall. They will boast that the three point or better rule is a major part in why the mulie herds are doing good, and at the smae time they'll try and tell you that it's not good for Elk? Well when it comes to the antler points those to animals are basically the same. Let the younger crowd grow up a bit to become smarter and you'll get a better and bigger herd faster.

My two cents. Sorry for the long rant, most the regulars know that this topic will send me into a tizzy

Wayne, oh ya and that's why I'll be heading to your neck o' the woods come Oct 1[8D]

When was it 3Pt. or better for Whitetail over there Wayne? As many from back east comment- "You can't manage whitetail with a 1 animal bag limit. " As for spike only elk......It sucks! As trapper says;why is 3pt or better not best for both species?? $$$$$$$$$$$ only
Oh yeah, we DID get drawn for that "wedge" 2nd deer tag hunt so we will also be returning to your neck of the woods. Only wish the second didn't have to be antlerless. Now the WDFW has sent us a letter saying that the first one can be any deer also- I'd have to be very desperate to do that!

The reason arizona bulls are so big is because residents also have to get drawn just to even hunt elk. They cant buy a over the counter tag. You cant just let everybody hunt 3pt or better bulls it would be a slaughter. Id rather hunt spikes every year than sit on the couch for 5 years cause I cant draw a elk permit. Obviousley theres alot of spikes making it through hunting season cause theres so many big bulls around, just look at the feeding stations when the season is over, theres spikes all over.

I think managing elk and deer are totally different. I could shoot a spike or two point buck every year if the rules were like that right out of the truck but your not going to shoot a spike bull like that.

Take a drive through the twisp wintrhop area during the late hunt (rut). theres legal bucks all over. so you cant tell me that the spikes and two points are doing alll the breeding. you start shooting 3pt or better bulls then your killing the breeder bulls and letting 3pt and smaller breed.

[quote]ORIGINAL: kirkl
Id rather hunt spikes every year than sit on the couch for 5 years cause I cant draw a elk permit.

I have to admit- me too!

summit daWg ...Seem's like 8-10 year's ago...and that was in Ferry County

Not with an 8% overall success rate. I don't think it would be the slaughter. I'm taking that percentage off last years data that is on the WDFW site now. Your right to an extent that the permit only system will bolster the herds into an over populated state but here in WA they have never even managed the herds to get anywhere close to that status. We'd have better and more animals if they'd quit killing cows to get their" Bull to cowratios" where they deem acceptable. IF they would trust in mother nature a little more than their pocket books the elk herds would be better off. And two why are they screaming that the "Sky is falling" all the time when almost every where there is Elk they ar in more plentiful numbers than throughout recorded history? Am I missing something?

Also you say you'd rather go after spikes instead of waiting to draw a Big bull. Exactly what they want you to do then after some time we'll get tired of chasing just spikes and we'll go along with a permit only thing like Arizona. That is the State's goal. I've seen papers saying such. The WDFW as a whole wants to go that route but the people(Us) aren't going for it....yet. Plus if your against the permit idea think about that as you put in for them as they are now. You're adding ammo to their fight. When they come to us someday proposing sucha plan they will have the documented numbers backing their claims with the entry totals we produce every year. Those against a permit only hunt, yet put in for the Margret and Toutle tags are shooting their beliefs in the foot. I don't doubt this will happen for a second. As you probably know to the "intelectuals" at the WFDW we the hunter are almost their enemy. you can tell it by talking to them they really don't like us. I beleive.[:'(]

I've read that in Elk, a spike may do up to 30-40% breeding of a harem. They studied hat while the herd bull is running off satellite bulls and the cow comes into standing heat the spike,which is not seen as a threat by the herd bull (antler size) the spike gets the cow. That to me is a good chunk?

And if said spike is of the same bloodline of the herd bull, wouldn't he keep passing it on?

And your point of killing the older bulls= killing all the breeders. I don't have the numbers but escapement for 3 point or better is far greater than less than bulls. And that is escapement from not only hunters but all predators and weather. The older a bull gets the wiser he gets. My main ppoint though is this. If we kill all the young bulls what happens when the older ones die of old age or other predators? Who's gonna fill their shoes? Another point from an animal husbandry state is breed stock should be cyceld every so often also. So we need the new blood to keep coming in to ensure a good bloodlines contiune and not get stale.

My two cents.

Trapper, just letting you know im not arguing with ya, just letting ya know my perspective on the subject.


Is that 8% taken from the big bull hunters, if so I wouldnt go on that, your sticking anywhere from 30-120 people in one unit hunting for big bulls in the week that they get to hunt early. When general season rolls around and theres 1000 hunters in a unit hunting 3pt or better, where do you think the success will go on big bulls. I could shoot a big bull every year cause thats normally what i see and so could alot of people in my elk camp. I think they should trust mother nature more also but then youll have every farmer that lives by the elk bitchin cause the elk are eating there crops so they end of being shot anyway. I think 3 pt or better would just be like hunting spikes, in a year or two alot of the big boys will be shot then your hunting for raghorns which will be scarce just like spikes are now. so you can kiss hunting for a trophy bull good bye. Utah has limited entry units also where they have to get drawn to hunt big bulls. Im not a game bio but this is the way i look at things.

Ya its spike only but I dont feel were killing all the young bulls, I live right by two feeding stations and there are young bulls all over so there escapement must not be to bad either. They have to be making it through the season otherwise you wouldnt be able to support the 3pt or better deal cause all there would be is old bulls.

I think if it was 3 point or better there would be a shoot out first couple years then where left hunting two year old spikes which are now raghorns so there still young and dumb. So your still hunting the same amount of elk as if they were spikes there just a year older but I think the quality of bulls will go down.

After reading a few posts I thought I'd add my .02 cents. I live in 3 pt. or better units. This will be our 4th or 5th year in 3 pt. or better (it got change several years back) and there are a lot more bulls and big bulls than before. The only problem keeping the herd somewhat slim is the Indians helicoptering in and stealing them and the cow permits which run from December-March. I'll give an example of how the bulls are doing. My dad has hunted the valley, which we still hunt, his whole life. This one farmer's field there is garrunteed(sp) to be elk in every year. Everyone goes to look at the elk before season and watches the bulls. Well, last year before Modern Elk, we watch 18 branch antlered bulls walk out into that field. He said there hasn't been that many bulls in that field ever. And yet, this year there was 24 branch bulls in that field. Number of bigger bulls seems to be rising don't you think?.....People in this 3 pt. areas kill trophys every year. My classmate killed a huge bull last year, as did two of my cousins. I live in 3 pt. areas and know how much better the hunting is.....kirkl, you say you think that there would be a shootout for a couple years then all the big bulls would be gone? Well, not quite, it's like a shootout every year but the next year always brings more big bulls.

Plus, the big bulls are harder to hunt. They are wiser and know not to run into the middle of a clear cut in elk season like those stupid spikes. Back in the day of spike hunting, my dad's party would kill 5 or 6 spikes the first day every year.

Also, what does it matter which bulls do the breeding? The cows are bred aren't they? They have calfs and the calfs grow up to be adult elk and the herd remains the same size if not bigger. What's the beef?