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RE: Elitist attitude
It wouldn't effect my hunting.... But neither would allowing guns into archery season.... But it would affect the overall spirit of a special, bow only season.. I don't consider the xbow a bow and neither do about 40+ other states and their related bowhunting associations... those same states didn't recognize compounds a few decades ago, are you glad they changed the laws ? You are saying a line in the sand needs to be drawn.... I draw mine when you no longer have to pull the bow back in the presence of game(ie.. xbow) WHY do you believe that ? Factshave been presented that show compounds MORE accurate and better shooting, heck a crossbow would be a step down if you look at it a certain way. Can you honestly say that a tricked out compound isn't the equivalent weapon, maybe even a BETTER weapon in the woods for a bowhunter ? I can tell you in states that allow both, the majority STILL use compounds. Why ? If crossbowswere THAT much better ? Truth is, they aren't. Truth is, P&Y were the anti-crossbowzealots that set the tone for the hatred and its alive and well today too even with compounds pushing thresholds never thought possible by bowhunters. Double Creeka compounds isn't primitive, in no way, shape or form is it. You'll allow it but not a crossbow, but WHY ? Because its the way we were raised oryou TRULYdeep down think that drawing a fraction of the weight of a bow and holding it for a few minutes while adeer works its way in is that huge of a factor ? C'mon man,I know you and I both have hunted with compounds and recurves and the differences is night and day, and crossbowsfall on theside with crossbows. brucelanthieryou use compounds for the same reasonmost people choose crossbows don't you ? Archery seasons were lobbied for, worked for, and established for........you guessed it--archery! Like DC said, nothing was taken away from anyone--they were added on due to the low impact the weapons have (or had at least), and at least here in MS we sure as heck didn't get the pick. If crossbows were allowed in the archery season, I'd be a heckof a lot more nervous about hunting public land during archery season LBT want to explain that ? C'mon man, distant records are set with trad bows and compounds, not crossbows. The type opf person shooting a bow can be holding ANY bow in their hand, responsibility doesn't follow the shooter does it ? How many injuries every year with compounds vs crossbows ? C'mon no stats back up being afraid of archery season with crossbows in them. Truth is, like Arkansas, there will be more compounders in the woods anyway, be afraid of them. I have no idea how it would affect the season in general. I do, we got 'em and you see more compounds in the woods than crossbows. Go figure huh ? I've seen quite few stories and pic on compound wounds and accidents in the woods. Never a crossbow though, though I'm sure its happened If crossbows are eventually allowed, I won't roll over and die, I won't go on a hunger strike, and I won't send hate mail to the manufacturers. Iwon't agree with it, but I'll adapt like always, and I'll teach my son what a bow is so hopefully he'll grow up with a respect for the tradition, the weapon, and those who workedso hard to get it for us.......even if there is no longer a reason to respect the season . If they're legalized for everyone (remember they ARE legal right now in MS) they will not affect your hunting any. They will bring a few more hunters to the woods, your bag limits and seasons will not be affected, and you'll see more compounds afield than crossbows anyway. I say that using the history of crossbows in Arkansas and Iowa etc as my benchmark, they've never been a negative. I'm teaching my bow too - that recurves and longbows forged the archery seasons in this country. Compounds and crossbows were allowed into that season later because people like to take shortcuts. They don't want to learn the hard way, they want the easier way. Compounds and crossbows give people that easier way. I hunted for a long time with compounds. I hunted last year with one in part. They're much more accurate, they're easier, not near the level of committment. They're designed to shoot very hard, quiet and accurate to long ranges. |
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: Big Duane brucelanthieryou use compounds for the same reasonmost people choose crossbows don't you ? |
RE: Elitist attitude
The fact is Big Duane... You can't go back and take away a weapon once its been established(ie. the compound).. I agree that it may not be a huge difference between a tricked out compound and an xbow, but you have to stop the innovation at some point... Since we know our state would never do away with compounds, we draw the line at xbows...
Our association has fought some big battles the last few years against the xbow and our research shows participation in archery seasons in other southern states has showed a declining trend in hunter numbers since allowing the xbow in... We look at Georgia and Alabama, who just recently let xbows into archery season.. Their numbers have declined while ours have stayed level..... How much is attributable to the xbox? We can't say for sure, but our states are very similar and the only change has been the xbow.... But like I said, the #1 reason we fight xbow is b/c we dont see it as a bow and letting it in the season sets precedent for other weapons.. Sure, you can point at other states and say that has not happened.... I agree, it may never would happen... We have elected to take the approach of better safe than sorry..... The argument that it will bring in new hunters does not hold water based on the declining overall archery numbers in our neighboring states... We also look to states like Ohio where the majority of archery kills are by xbow... We dont want that in our state and we will continue to fight it tooth and nail..... You don't think they will take your archery season? Think again... Our association lobbied for and got a late bow only season the last 2 weeks of the season.... That lasted for years.... It no longer exists... We now share that time with muzzleloaders... In addition, when the state implemented a youth week for firearms, instead of taking a week from adult firearm hunters, they took one the archery only weeks.... Sure, we all agree and support the youth week, but it just goes to show that archery season in an after thought and they will take it away in a heart beat. |
RE: Elitist attitude
The UnitedBowhunters of PA fought the good fight and lost the Xbow in archery season[:@]Heck the PGC evenhas a three day ML gun antlerless hunt during archery season. Thats in-line ML and flintlock. The late season is flintlock only for buck if you still have a tag. You can use a in-line late season in the special regs areas for Doe only not Bucks! Its all about the $$$$$ if you ask me, part of it anyway! Xbows and guns in archery season is burr in my boot. But thats the PGC! They live in a grey world with some of the regulations the come up with!!
Hatchet Jack |
RE: Elitist attitude
No, not at all. Why, is that the reason you used one for 13 years? Yous use a compound because its easier ? No. Less accurate ? No. harder ? No. More challenging ? No. You use a compound because of the same reasons we all do/did. If I'm wrong, tell me how Double Creek I agree that it may not be a huge difference between a tricked out compound and an xbow, but you have to stop the innovation at some point... Since we know our state would never do away with compounds, we draw the line at xbows... Compounds were allowed back when they were 50% letoff and not much better than recurves. My how things have changed. If todays bows were what were back in the 1970's compounds would never have been allowed. We look at Georgia and Alabama, who just recently let xbows into archery season.. Their numbers have declined while ours have stayed level..... How much is attributable to the xbox? We can't say for sure, but our states are very similar and the only change has been the xbow.... You don't think they will take your archery season? showed a declining trend in hunter numbers since allowing the xbow in ????? in Mississippi can you bowhunt during rifle and muzleloader seasons ? The UnitedBowhunters of PA fought the good fight and lost the Xbow in archery season[:@] |
RE: Elitist attitude
they were added - something you've already talked about. Ammended to, added to, rules and regs changed to allow them into a primitve season. C'mon man, distant records are set with trad bows and compounds, not crossbows. The type opf person shooting a bow can be holding ANY bow in their hand, responsibility doesn't follow the shooter does it ? You can't simply point and shoot a bow in a split second. You don't carry a bow around locked, cocked, and loaded with only a few lbs. pressure from one finger required to launch the arrow. The one guy's comments about his crossbow being his "jump and shoot bow" really worried me, and still does. We know there are stupid people in this world that shoot at shadows, sounds, movements, etc. The few seconds it takes to get a string back could mean the difference. I do, we got 'em and you see more compounds in the woods than crossbows. Go figure huh ? My main point from the beginning has not hadto do with the effect crossbows may or may not have on the season. It's simply that crossbows are not bows, and do not belong in thearchery season. I also mentioned that if the market gets opened up, and the money starts pouring in, it's very likely we'll see advances never thought about--just like we've seen with compounds in the last 10 years.I don't think the market has been big enough for thebig money to be poured into them yet--and even with the limited market, go back and read what Matt said about them--how much they have advanced just lately. If they're legalized for everyone (remember they ARE legal right now in MS) they will not affect your hunting any. Bull. First, they are only legal for a slim minority (disabled and elderly, two groups who don't generally hunt a lot to begin with). I already told you one way it will effect me--there will be folks that don't know or care to learn about the weapon, other than how to load, aim, and pull the trigger--taking them to the woods in droves. Adults to lazy to bother, and their kids that they won't teach. We need to bring in a bunch of folks that think a crossbow is a "jump and shoot" weapon, without knowing squat else about it. I figure most will give it up eventually, once they find out that crossbows aren't magical, but at what cost? I figure that 99% of those that care a bit about hunting already hunt. The fact is Big Duane... You can't go back and take away a weapon once its been established(ie. the compound).. I agree that it may not be a huge difference between a tricked out compound and an xbow, but you have to stop the innovation at some point... Since we know our state would never do away with compounds, we draw the line at xbows... Who could have predicted how much, and how fast, compounds would advance? That camel is already in the tent--nothing can be done about it. We can try to keep the crossbow camel out though. But like I said, the #1 reason we fight xbow is b/c we dont see it as a bow and letting it in the season sets precedent for other weapons. DC goes on to make more excellent points. We are the most vunerable--nobody is going to take anything away from the gun season--there's too much money to be made. Money will continue to push and eat away at our archery season as well, unless we take a stand. We only got the crumbs as it is--and nowsome folks are trying to steal even those from us. Chad |
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: Big Duane No, not at all. Why, is that the reason you used one for 13 years? Yous use a compound because its easier ? No. Less accurate ? No. harder ? No. More challenging ? No. You use a compound because of the same reasons we all do/did. If I'm wrong, tell me how I use a compound because it was my introduction to bowhunting, 14 months now. I am mostly self taught although I did attend a two day class given Len of Macrotech. I have come a long way, I think, in 14 months. I can tune a bow, arrows and an arrow to a bow or vice versa. I can build an arrow to suit a bow and draw weight while taking into consideration the total arrow weight and the FOC. And so on. I started bowhunting because I wanted to shoot arrows instead of guns and I am damn good with a gun. It seemed to fit in with what I wanted to get out of hunting now, for many different reasons and none of them were length of season, accuracy, etc. I am in this forum because, while I love to tinker and compounds are great for that, I want to simplify my hunting, my bowhunting, further. BY simplify I do NOT mean make it easier, I mean remove all of the "extras". I am sure you know what I mean ;). The first arrow I ever shot was so quiet compared to shooting a gun. I knew then I had made the correct move :D. |
RE: Elitist attitude
"It's simply that crossbows are not bows, and do not belong in thearchery season"
This is very little other than an unsupported opinion and a clear statement of the "MY season!" attitude of the anti crossbow crowd. The definition of a bow (as stated many times before) has nothing to do with the ability to hold it drawn or the length of time it can be held that way. A crossbow is a bow...deal with it (and I will even go so far as to say the "bow plus" comment is not that far off). You of course are entitled to your opinion. This is very similar to a theological debate. You "believe" one thing, I "believe" another. The problem with "beliefs" is when facts about crossbows and their impact on hunting are presented that contradictthose "beliefs" then all people do is fall back on "its not a bow!" Ihonestly feel sorry for you that you feel so threatend and sincerelywish that all that energythat these "bowhunting orgaizations" are putting into thisimagined threat could be put to better use...say against the anti-HUNTERS for example... Wyvern |
RE: Elitist attitude
I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over........
It's not just my opinion--any rational definition of a bow does not include a stock, forearm, trigger, etc. Ifa crossbow is in the same category as a bow, then a Browning BAR and a flintlock should be in the same category. Definition of a crossbow includes some of the same things as a bow--similar ammunition, similar means of propelling it. Definition of an automatic rifle and muzzleloader has the same similarities--similar ammunition, similar means of propelling it. Actually, get right down to it the BAR and muzzleloader are in the same category--firearms--but try using that toexplain to the DNR why you are justified in taking a semi-auto 30-.06 in the woods during muzzleloader season. I don't feel threatened by the crossbow so much, other than safety concerns. I don't think the deer herd will plummet if they are allowed in archery season. As far as that goes, I don't think it would affect the herd much if any if flintlock muzzleloaders were allowed in archery season--THEY SIMPLY ARE NOT BOWS, AND DO NOT BELONG IN THE ARCHERY-ONLY SEASON--my opinion, and the primary reason I don't want them in the archery season--just like I don't want flintlocks allowed in the archery-only season. I don't hate them, I'm not scared of them, I don't personally feel threatened by them--I keep saying this over and over and over, yet it keeps coming back again and again and again. I've been honest about this from the start. I don't consider a crossbow to be a bow, and I've given legitamate reasons, comparisons, and definitions. I'm not making stuff up concerning your personal feelings to give my opinion a foundation. I could come up with stuff like "you are just lazy" or "you just don't want to learn to be competent with a real bow", etc. etc. etc. just like I keep getting told I'm scared, insecure, ignorant,whatever--but I don't think that's the case at all. I think you just like them, and you want your quiet time in the woods with them away from firearms like I do. Fine and dandy for the primitive weapons season, or get together and lobby for an extension of the seasonfor those weapons like bowhunters did. Probably wind up just taking another chunk out of the archery season, like the 2 weeks we lost in MS a few years ago to "primitive" weapons, but I don't think it should just be laid in your lap because you want it and choose to call a crossbow a bow. I think it was already asked, but I'll ask anyway--do you want to keep rifles out of the archery season? If so, aren't you just as guilty of the "my season" mentality? Chad |
RE: Elitist attitude
showed a declining trend in hunter numbers since allowing the xbow in ????? Big Duane.... We don't fear increased numbers with xbows or xbows taking "our" season... We fear it sets a precedent for OTHER weapons.. Primarily muzzleloaders or maybe even a doe only gun season, both of which have been tossed around by the law makers.. They tell us we can't kill enough deer. Our arguement is, if MS hunters cant kill enough deer with 2.5 months of gun season, extra time isnt the issue. They need to look to other avenues to increase the doe harvest... I've attached a good recap of the xbow situation that our association's legislative watch dog posted on our dept. of wildlife website. This summarizes our battle and beliefs pretty good I think. Emotions can sometimes run high on this subject and I can understand to a degree both sides. I see crossbows as a valid sporting weapon; but not in the archery season other than the handicapped or disabled. Those who favor the crossbow in archery season often point out the crossbows similarities to a vertical bow, but always leave out the dissimilarities...and you can't have one without the other. Lets look at facts.. 1) Compounds were legalized in 1974 to allow more participation by hunters..especially women and children. I don't think anything has changed as that is still true. Why the crossbow argument? My son was 10 on his first bowkill and I have friends whose children were as young as 8. I refuse to accept that abled body adults can't use archery gear. Maybe you can pull only 35 pounds...that's more than enough for whitetails. My son killed many deer with recurves of the same approx weight. 2) The last time I looked, the state allowed free will participation in the archery season by any hunter for the mere cost of a license. The opportunity to hunt doesn't neccesarily extend to an individuals choice of weapon. Choice is wonderful, but it has it's limits. To argue anything less and you have to support an open, pick any weapon format. 3) Does anyone really want to take the disabled and elderly special privileges away? The use of the crossbow allows them to participate equally with other hunters...despite their special challenges. Opening it up to anyone is like a perfectly healthy driver taking the handicapped parking spot at Walmart and saying...they can still park anywhere they want!" 4) Georgia is down almost 25% in archery participation since the crossbows legalization in 2002. Forgiveness of the states actions by bowhunters is hard to get there. 5) Alabama participation in the archery season has also dropped double digits since the crossbow was legalized. See item number 4. 6) Kentucky rolled back it's crossbow legalization to only part of the archery season...due to extreme opposition by the states bowhunters. 7) Mississippi's archery participation has held steady over the last few years and actually has shown a small growth as opposed to our crossbow neighboring states whose participation is plummenting. 8) The politics of the situation is similar to that of the 'primitive weapon' changes. To usher in one small change doesn't stop at that...it goes on and on and on and on etc. 9) Only 12 states out of 50 allow ANY crossbow usage in the archery season by anyone other than the disabled. The first state was Arkansas and Ohio in the early and mid 70's. After 30+ years only 12 states?..hardly sounds like a ground swell of support. By comparison the compound was legalized in all 50 states in 7 years. 10) In Ohio bowhunters are the minority users in the archery season. crossbow users make up 55% of the total participates. In Arkansas, around 45% are crossbow users. 11) A new age of crossbow technology is being developed. One crossbow maker advertises 400 FPS speeds. Since the hunter doesn't have to pull the bowstring..there is no end to the innovation of the product. 12) Every national and state bowhunter organization opposes the crossbows legalization in the archery season. A strong coalition of state and national bowhunter organizations has been formed to unify bowhunters across the nation and to pool collective efforts to defeat it's further emproachment upon the archery seasons of America. 12) Most importantly, no poll ever shows that hunters want the crossbow legalized. Partly due to the fact, that the crossbow has no American heritage and history as a sporting component. Bowhunters are overwhelmingly against it (90% plus by some surveys) and polls that include all hunters typically show a 50/50 split in support. Why upset the apple cart when the season works fine? It "ain't" broke..don't fix it. The people that actually use the archery seasons, buys equipment, learns skills, and supports special archery seasons by license sales....they don't want it. Exceptions do exist. My concern is that if you ever break the status qou of legally prescribed weaponry...no one (including myself) knows where the yellow brick road leads. I'll be the first to admit, that I have many doubts on the subject, yet careful consideration leads me to think that it's not in the best interest of bowhunting to legalize the crossbow in archery only season formats. Here are those archery numbers from other states that I have talked about. The why's of the recent drops are hard to answer, but the trends are alarming. Through the same time period (up to 2005 when the latest figures were released....Mississippi archery numbers have held steady) Alabama: 2001-2002 55,400 2002-2003 67,200 (crossbows legalized) 2003-2004 74,500 2004-2005 70,300 2005-2006 62,700 Georgia Archery Hunters 2001 109008 2002 96721 2003 97392 (crossbows legalized) 2004 111682 2005 88667 2006 81050 And here is MS numbers with an explanation from our head biologist : We get our hunter estimate numbers from mail survey data. One thing to note is that in 2003 the survey methodology changed and this could be the reason for the drastic decline between 2002 and 2003.  |
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