Why are they charging so much???
09-22-2007, 05:07 PM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,076
Why are they charging so much???
why are they charging so much for american made newlongbowsfrom quality manufacturers....
it seems like a bowyer that makes both Recurves and Longbows charges the same, if not more, sometimes a hundred dollars more, for a longbow than he does for a recurve..
WHY????
is a longbow harder to make??? (they certainly dont look like they are harder to make but i could see how having longer limbs couldgive bowyers a fit. 8-9 hundred dollars for a Howard Hill style bow seems pretty steep too me)
if they arent harder to make i guess i dont understand, is it an image thing, and guys who shoot longbows are willing to pay the extra money for something that is considered more traditional or exactly what they want???
just a thought, not trying to affend anyone.
another thing i think about from time to time is a Bowyer like Adcock, everybody mentions how his longbows are almost or faster than some recurves and how theyfeel like a recurve.
to me that doesnt make any sense...if his "longbow" can keep up with recurves. why doenst he design a full blown recurve utilizing his bowmaking genius and bloweverything elseaway????
whynot just makea recurve instead of saying thatthis "longbow" is almost as fast as one.
I say "longbow" because to me adcocks bows look more like recurves.
it seems like a bowyer that makes both Recurves and Longbows charges the same, if not more, sometimes a hundred dollars more, for a longbow than he does for a recurve..
WHY????
is a longbow harder to make??? (they certainly dont look like they are harder to make but i could see how having longer limbs couldgive bowyers a fit. 8-9 hundred dollars for a Howard Hill style bow seems pretty steep too me)
if they arent harder to make i guess i dont understand, is it an image thing, and guys who shoot longbows are willing to pay the extra money for something that is considered more traditional or exactly what they want???
just a thought, not trying to affend anyone.
another thing i think about from time to time is a Bowyer like Adcock, everybody mentions how his longbows are almost or faster than some recurves and how theyfeel like a recurve.
to me that doesnt make any sense...if his "longbow" can keep up with recurves. why doenst he design a full blown recurve utilizing his bowmaking genius and bloweverything elseaway????
whynot just makea recurve instead of saying thatthis "longbow" is almost as fast as one.
I say "longbow" because to me adcocks bows look more like recurves.
09-22-2007, 07:09 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Spring Grove, Pa. USA
Posts: 2,120
RE: Why are they charging so much???
Most of the bowyers I've seen that make both,they're longbows are cheaper in cost.A brand new top-of-the line Hill will cost you about $500-maybe a bit more depending on options you get
09-22-2007, 07:35 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,076
RE: Why are they charging so much???
BlackWidow charges $910 for there PTF one peice recurves.
$890 for there PSR(morelike a 50's style curve)series one piece recurve
and $940 for their PL series longbows.
Chek-mate charges $360 base for a delux falcon recurve
they charge $525 base for therecrusader Longbow both are one peice.
Predator Bows charges $549.99 base for their one peice Pheonix longbow
and $499 for therehunter take downrecurve model
maybee not everyones charging more for there longbows
but i can find more examples of one peice longbows costing more than the one piece recurves.
your right about 450-500$ being the price for Howard Hill brand bows but i know ive seen some go for over $800 before maybee they were collectable custom somehow and maybee they werent howard hill brand...but they were definately a hill style bow. and they didnt have gold or silver or precious stone or gemsinlayed into them 100% wood and glass with nothing fancy... i could understand the price better if they had some intricate inlay work or carving on them it makesit a peice offunctional art worthy of being a museum peice,but they dont have that. and they werent collectable because they werevinatage, they were maderecently.
iunderstand paying money for things...
i shoot alot of pool. i play pool with a SCHON stl5 that books for $765 new. markdown from book new is usually 15% so the cue cost $650 new at a shop that isnt scammingyou.i gave 475$(wich is about 100$ less thannormal. i new the seller well.)for itslightly used with no flaws(its a basic model schon without all the fancy inlays and it was worth the price i paid to me. i plan on using it for the rest of my life if im fortunate enuff
some fancy Schon cues go for 3000-4000-5000 $dollars depending on how much ivory/precious materials are usedand how manypeices of inlay are in it. basically all good american made cues that arent mass produced and hold value wellhave a starting price point of around $450....some makers charge alotmore for a baisic model because of reputation/demand/availability or whatever, which isnt worth it to me.
i Have a Martin acoustic guitar and it cost mealot as well but it was worth it to me...i havent picked up a guitar that cost the same or 3 times more that plays or sounds better to me...ill get a lifetime out of it too because it doesnt go on gigs...it will hold its value well too...
is the price point thing with these bows about holding value over time.
it seams to me that used bows are 90% of the time huge bargains for shoppers.
i dont kno i guess i feel connected to my guitar and my poolcue.
i havent really experienced that with any bow ever even tho i like my bow very much and ill have it as long as it will last...i can gofrom my bow to my buddies bows to jo scmoes bow and once i figure outhow thething points its all good and i dont find myself thinking that i wish i had my bow in my hands like i do when i pick up a differnt pool cue orguitar maybee its not a fair comparison shooting pool and playing guitar are pretty intricate activities more so than shooting a bow in my opinion.
mabee some get really connected to there bows and thats why they pay the prices they do for them???
$890 for there PSR(morelike a 50's style curve)series one piece recurve
and $940 for their PL series longbows.
Chek-mate charges $360 base for a delux falcon recurve
they charge $525 base for therecrusader Longbow both are one peice.
Predator Bows charges $549.99 base for their one peice Pheonix longbow
and $499 for therehunter take downrecurve model
maybee not everyones charging more for there longbows
but i can find more examples of one peice longbows costing more than the one piece recurves.
your right about 450-500$ being the price for Howard Hill brand bows but i know ive seen some go for over $800 before maybee they were collectable custom somehow and maybee they werent howard hill brand...but they were definately a hill style bow. and they didnt have gold or silver or precious stone or gemsinlayed into them 100% wood and glass with nothing fancy... i could understand the price better if they had some intricate inlay work or carving on them it makesit a peice offunctional art worthy of being a museum peice,but they dont have that. and they werent collectable because they werevinatage, they were maderecently.
iunderstand paying money for things...
i shoot alot of pool. i play pool with a SCHON stl5 that books for $765 new. markdown from book new is usually 15% so the cue cost $650 new at a shop that isnt scammingyou.i gave 475$(wich is about 100$ less thannormal. i new the seller well.)for itslightly used with no flaws(its a basic model schon without all the fancy inlays and it was worth the price i paid to me. i plan on using it for the rest of my life if im fortunate enuff
some fancy Schon cues go for 3000-4000-5000 $dollars depending on how much ivory/precious materials are usedand how manypeices of inlay are in it. basically all good american made cues that arent mass produced and hold value wellhave a starting price point of around $450....some makers charge alotmore for a baisic model because of reputation/demand/availability or whatever, which isnt worth it to me.
i Have a Martin acoustic guitar and it cost mealot as well but it was worth it to me...i havent picked up a guitar that cost the same or 3 times more that plays or sounds better to me...ill get a lifetime out of it too because it doesnt go on gigs...it will hold its value well too...
is the price point thing with these bows about holding value over time.
it seams to me that used bows are 90% of the time huge bargains for shoppers.
i dont kno i guess i feel connected to my guitar and my poolcue.
i havent really experienced that with any bow ever even tho i like my bow very much and ill have it as long as it will last...i can gofrom my bow to my buddies bows to jo scmoes bow and once i figure outhow thething points its all good and i dont find myself thinking that i wish i had my bow in my hands like i do when i pick up a differnt pool cue orguitar maybee its not a fair comparison shooting pool and playing guitar are pretty intricate activities more so than shooting a bow in my opinion.
mabee some get really connected to there bows and thats why they pay the prices they do for them???
09-22-2007, 08:24 PM
#4
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Why are they charging so much???
The reason is quite simple. They charge that much because there are enough people that will pay the price to keep them in business. That's one reason I decided to just make my own longbow. It's not a Black Widow, by any stretch of the imagination, but it's MINE. Made by me, for me, and that makes anything I shoot with it just that much more of an accomplishment.
And when I really want to go cheap, I whittle out a selfbow. Those are FREE, except for your labor.
And when I really want to go cheap, I whittle out a selfbow. Those are FREE, except for your labor.
09-23-2007, 06:51 AM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: Why are they charging so much???
You'll also find that a lot has to do with supply/demand.
When I bought my Adcock ACS (not cx), I already had an order into OL for a completely different bow. The wait at the time was 2 years (I ordered it I believe in January 2002). Then he got the patent on the ACS. One day he called and said he could only make me the ACS model, but he was ready to start and would give it to me for the same price as the bow I had on order. When the bow came in, I could have sold it for twice what I paid for it.
But, it is the ONLY radical deflex/reflex longbow that I enjoy shooting (so far anyway).
When I bought my Adcock ACS (not cx), I already had an order into OL for a completely different bow. The wait at the time was 2 years (I ordered it I believe in January 2002). Then he got the patent on the ACS. One day he called and said he could only make me the ACS model, but he was ready to start and would give it to me for the same price as the bow I had on order. When the bow came in, I could have sold it for twice what I paid for it.
But, it is the ONLY radical deflex/reflex longbow that I enjoy shooting (so far anyway).
09-23-2007, 10:57 AM
#6
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mississippi USA
Posts: 15,296
RE: Why are they charging so much???
I really don't know all the answers myself, even for CM. I do know there's a lot more work involved in making a Crusader vs. a Falcon, plus (don't ask me why) you can get yew limbs ($85 option on other bows) in a Crusader at no extra cost. Marc has made a few "quicky" longbows for me to play with (straight limbs, no double tapered lams like are in the Crusader), that he can knock out really fast, but they aren't a lot better than a Martin stick--nowhere near the shooter the Crusader is. If anything, the Falcon is too cheap--I don't have a clue how they can turn a profit with them. I'vehad several bowyers ask me how the heck they can do it, and one shop owner, not a CM dealerget flat-out mad about the price, and demanded they be sold for more. He sold his business several years ago, and the new owner folded, so no need in going into details on that.
The ACX (now made by A&H Archery) is documented by Norb Mullaney to be the fastest traditional bow he's ever tested. Doesn't just run off and leaveall others inthe dust, but it is fast. I believe O.L. and John (Havard) have been working on a recurve limb for a while, it just hasn't come together yet. The ACS pushes the limits in a lot of ways--it may not be feasable in a recurve limb.
How long have you been playing guitar and shooting pool, vs. shooting a bow? The reason I ask is it will take most a good bit of experience to figure out the differences between one and another. I can pick up most any bow and shoot it, but I won't shoot it like I do MY bows, I won't have the same confidence with it, and it won't feel the same. Heck, I won a tournament a few years ago with a borrowed recurve--I hated the way that thing felt, I wouldn't pay $5 for it if I had to use it (no, it wasn't a CM), but I could hit with it.
Art also makes a good point--a lot of it boils down to supply and demand. Products will sell for what they public is willing to pay. Some products could easily sell for a lot more (i.e., some bows that sell for one price with one name on them and the exact same bows sell for quite a bit more with a different name on them), but generally prices are set by what folks are willing to pay beyond cost. Do you think it really costs that much more to make a pair of GUESS jeans, vs. a pair of Lee? Do they really wear any different? But look at the price difference--most folks will pay a whole lot more just for a label. 'Course a lot of the big names got that way, in part, due to good advertising and a lot of it--that ain't cheap either, and has to be paid for.
I think the namehas a lot more to do with it than getting "connected" with a bow, at least for most. That, and the more it costsand/or the harder it is to get, the more attractive it is to the masses.Folks read the ads, drool over the catalogs and brochures, read the reviews, and say "I gotta have me one of those!". Then they get it, and......well, seems to me that's one reason there are so many "new" used bows for sale.
Chad
The ACX (now made by A&H Archery) is documented by Norb Mullaney to be the fastest traditional bow he's ever tested. Doesn't just run off and leaveall others inthe dust, but it is fast. I believe O.L. and John (Havard) have been working on a recurve limb for a while, it just hasn't come together yet. The ACS pushes the limits in a lot of ways--it may not be feasable in a recurve limb.
How long have you been playing guitar and shooting pool, vs. shooting a bow? The reason I ask is it will take most a good bit of experience to figure out the differences between one and another. I can pick up most any bow and shoot it, but I won't shoot it like I do MY bows, I won't have the same confidence with it, and it won't feel the same. Heck, I won a tournament a few years ago with a borrowed recurve--I hated the way that thing felt, I wouldn't pay $5 for it if I had to use it (no, it wasn't a CM), but I could hit with it.
Art also makes a good point--a lot of it boils down to supply and demand. Products will sell for what they public is willing to pay. Some products could easily sell for a lot more (i.e., some bows that sell for one price with one name on them and the exact same bows sell for quite a bit more with a different name on them), but generally prices are set by what folks are willing to pay beyond cost. Do you think it really costs that much more to make a pair of GUESS jeans, vs. a pair of Lee? Do they really wear any different? But look at the price difference--most folks will pay a whole lot more just for a label. 'Course a lot of the big names got that way, in part, due to good advertising and a lot of it--that ain't cheap either, and has to be paid for.
I think the namehas a lot more to do with it than getting "connected" with a bow, at least for most. That, and the more it costsand/or the harder it is to get, the more attractive it is to the masses.Folks read the ads, drool over the catalogs and brochures, read the reviews, and say "I gotta have me one of those!". Then they get it, and......well, seems to me that's one reason there are so many "new" used bows for sale.
Chad
09-23-2007, 02:17 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,076
RE: Why are they charging so much???
ORIGINAL: LBR
How long have you been playing guitar and shooting pool, vs. shooting a bow? The reason I ask is it will take most a good bit of experience to figure out the differences between one and another. I can pick up most any bow and shoot it, but I won't shoot it like I do MY bows, I won't have the same confidence with it, and it won't feel the same. Heck, I won a tournament a few years ago with a borrowed recurve--I hated the way that thing felt, I wouldn't pay $5 for it if I had to use it (no, it wasn't a CM), but I could hit with it.
I think the namehas a lot more to do with it than getting "connected" with a bow, at least for most. That, and the more it costsand/or the harder it is to get, the more attractive it is to the masses.Folks read the ads, drool over the catalogs and brochures, read the reviews, and say "I gotta have me one of those!". Then they get it, and......well, seems to me that's one reason there are so many "new" used bows for sale.
Chad
How long have you been playing guitar and shooting pool, vs. shooting a bow? The reason I ask is it will take most a good bit of experience to figure out the differences between one and another. I can pick up most any bow and shoot it, but I won't shoot it like I do MY bows, I won't have the same confidence with it, and it won't feel the same. Heck, I won a tournament a few years ago with a borrowed recurve--I hated the way that thing felt, I wouldn't pay $5 for it if I had to use it (no, it wasn't a CM), but I could hit with it.
I think the namehas a lot more to do with it than getting "connected" with a bow, at least for most. That, and the more it costsand/or the harder it is to get, the more attractive it is to the masses.Folks read the ads, drool over the catalogs and brochures, read the reviews, and say "I gotta have me one of those!". Then they get it, and......well, seems to me that's one reason there are so many "new" used bows for sale.
Chad
Guitar is an on and offlove affairfor the past 10 years or so. I play it when i feel inspired. sometimes everyday for at least an hour for months andother timesi dont pick it up for weeks or a few months...ive "studied" guitar for about 5 years.
Archery ive been shooting for over 15 years i wanna say i got into it pretty heavy at 9 or 10 years old. Little stickbows at first then a compound the next year along shooting in archery meets right off the bat. just got really into trad bows 2 years ago.i can feel the differences in the different bows ive shot but the differences dont bother me enuff while shooting to make me shoot worse than i would with my own bow(once i figure out how to point the bow)... same with compounds, ill pick up any compund and shoot tight groups out to 30 yards. i dont know maybee after i spend 10 years with the same bowthings will change
right now a different bow just doesnt bother me for some reason even tho they all have unique feel to them.
So a Longbow depending on the Design of the bow might be harder to manufacture?
and demand has a lot to do with the price of a given bow...
09-24-2007, 12:15 AM
#8
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mississippi USA
Posts: 15,296
RE: Why are they charging so much???
i dont know maybee after i spend 10 years with the same bowthings will change
So a Longbow depending on the Design of the bow might be harder to manufacture?
I can only speak from my experiences with CM, as I have quite a bit with them. The Crusader longbow (their most expensive model)isn't anywhere near their best seller--if they justwanted toincrease their profit margin, it would only make sense to do it with the models that sell the best.
I'll try to remeber to ask Marc (the bowyer) the next time I talk to him and get more information.
Chad
09-24-2007, 06:36 AM
#9
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 156
RE: Why are they charging so much???
The cost of making these bows is determined by the wood used. The material used as the limb core. i.e. tapered bamboo lamenations with a sasaphras limb vaneer. Common woods will run 100 to 200 less than an exotic wood like Bubinga, Cocabola, Macasser ebony and so on. If you actually broke down the cost of the bow minus material, a bowyer makes a very low hourly rate. But, you will notice a difference between a custom bow and one purchased from a department or box store.
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