<font color=red>&quot;Lets keep the archery season for bow hunting and create a crossbow season outside of the archery time frame; that is what I propose.&quot;</font id=red>

Let's not.

First we give crossguns a season, thereby legitimizing them carte blanc? Now what we have is a larger user group and the manufacturers have more power to get them where they really want...in archery season. Sorry, but I'm not willing to give them so much as one more foot in the door.

You don't protect yourself by appeasing others. You don't uphold what's right by slowly passifying what's wrong. And you don't preserve archery seasons by slowly letting crossgun manufacturers get a foot-hold.

It's no different than the ARA's. First let's ban trapping, then baiting for bears, then we'll go after hunting with hounds for lions, then something else...on & on we go. Sounds like Sarah Brady and the assault weapons deal. As bowhunters, we should have learned this lesson long, LONG ago.

Can't happen? How do you think they became legal in IL for the handicapped? The crossgun folks wanted them across the board in the archery season, and the State threw them a bone.

Look at WI. First they're only for the handicapped. Then, they're for anyone over 65 years old. Give it a few years...they'll make another push.

Like I said; bowhunting has been bastardized enough in the last 10-20 years. A line needs to be drawn once and for all.

JRW

JRW, Pope and Young drew that line nearly 20 years ago with their equipment restrictions. Show me more than a handfull of compound shooters today that think those rules, especially the 65% letoff rule, are fair. P&Y makes no bones about the point of their equipment restrictions being to maintain a demonstrable difference between bows and crossbows. You see most people spitting in P&Y's face over it.

No sir. It's not about whether or not crossbows get in. Unless there are drastic changes, it is going to happen eventually because the compound community has rolled out the red carpet for them. The question is, can we delay inclusion of crossbows until we've had a chance to clean up our side of the fence.

I am perfectly willing to fight the crossbow as hard as I ever have over the past 25 years for the benefit of traditional archery, but I refuse to stand firm against one kind of arrow flinging device for the benefit of folks who take advantage of that defense to develop arrow flinging contraptions that are just as bad, or worse, behind my back.

mhogan's assertion that 'most' compounders are willing to accept equipment restrictions carries about as much weight as a dessicated ant. If they were willing, then they'd already be voluntarily complying with the equipment restrictions we've already got under P&Y's rules of fair chase.

mhogan's statement that there are people that would throw away our season in disgust is closer to the mark. I AM disgusted, with things going on both in the compound community as well as what is happening in the trad community. I detest the speed and technology stampede and I can't stand the people on the trad side that start in with their big tent crap when anyone dares to stand firm and speak out against it.

What I'm saying is that I can't, in good faith, oppose the crossbow without also opposing compounds that do not comply with Pope and Young equipment guidelines. To do otherwise is to be a hypocrite. But to do so is to be called elitist and divisive. So be it!

As I've said before, I am honored to be called an elitist. And as an elitist, I believe it's far past time for crossbow opponents to stand up and fight the 'anything goes' attitude behind our backs before we can be successful in defeating the threat in front of us. It's erosion from within that is making the crossbow loom large before us, not any change in the crossbow itself or in it's marketing or lobbying.

Amen! What I don't understand is why archers have polarized themselves so much. A case in point is the Michigan bowhunters organization. Not too many years ago I was a member, it was alot of fun to attend the rendevous(spelling bad) and talk with other archers, no one I talked to criticised the equipment used by each other, in fact I had a traditional shooter compliment me on my form and offer a tip to shoot at moving targets. But that was 5 years ago, now the organzation has changed pushing members out to start their own organizations (Ted Nugents club, Michigan traditional bowhunters, ect...). Why? Should we not all stick together and preserve our sport? It is a sport now, we no longer need to hunt for survival. Lets not forget our ancestors created faster, stronger, and more accurate weapons for their survival not just because they could. So why do we want to make it easier? Because we are lazy, and it is that laziness that keeps us from working together as one. It is not any one parties problem, we as a community from the dabbler to the elite' are to blame for the blurring of established guidelines. So what should we do? I am only one person but what I have done is start talking, I defend archery as a whole and stand for keeping it closer to the original concepts such as Pope and Youngs rules. I am no better than any other archer, I used to shoot an Onieda arrow force at 50% let off with a gator jaw release and an assortment of gadgets to make it easier. I found that easier was as rewarding as the basics, but then I am only one person. Maybe it is our society of hunters greed of pursuing only the TROPHY animals, bigger racks are all they want. Again what can we do? I say we govern ourselves but to do that we must work together and than is something that seems impossible. But as a person who has been brought out of a life of eternal damnation by Christ I know that impossible is always possible. God bless all of you for your oppinions, may we all keep level heads and work together for not only our future but also that future we leave to the next generations.
Vern Pratt

Very well thought out and said JRW. Pa. passed equipment archery restrictions last year with very little protest. They do not have let off and speed restrictions and I'm sure that would generate much protest. Usually when we discuss something substanial, like a let off restrction such as P&Y has, it seems to me that most are willing to accept at least an 80% restriction. The reason I see most often given for wanting the higher let-offs allowed are to make it easier for small shooters, and because that is what is commonly available. I recently tried to find a listing of each states present archery equipment restrictions and struck out. No one has taken on that project that anyone knows of.

I believe that instead of throwing the the towel, we should work to limit technology. We will not ever get it back to trad bows only, but maybe something reasonable that would limit let off, prevent scopes and electronics, and keep out the stock mounted and triggered crossbow.

I doubt if those people that would limit technology will have much success. The cards are stacked against you. The archery lobby is mostly made up of modern archery manufacturers and with the majority of bowhunters using that techology, they have a lot of clout. The other issue is CWD. The emphasis has switched from quantity wildlife management to balanced habitat management. Has anyone noticed the increased issuance of doe permits for the gun season? Last year, everyone who applied for a doe permit in Minnesota and /or extra management permit got one. (At least everyone I know) The Midwest deer herd has to be reduced to fight the CWD. This will not lead to restrictions that will reduce the harvest totals. The best we can hope for is seperate seasons. Just another reason I'm looking to buy my own land. Dick

ROTFLMAO! Nobody protested the 65% rule in 1988 either, since it represented cutting edge technology at the time. But then someone came up with a 75% letoff and that was the end of peace and tranquility.

As soon as someone develops a shootable compound with 95% letoff, I guarantee you folks in PA will be raising hell to get that regulation erased.

Dick, owning your own land is the only way to go. You can make up your own equipment restrictions.




Edited by - Arthur P on 01/18/2003 12:19:02

I'm not going to debate what another poster said. Whether I agree or disagree, I'm not him and he's not me. I'm also not going to discuss the Michigan Bowhunters. I don't live there, and am not a member.

As far as me...I hunt with folks that think all real bows are whittled from trees, and I hunt with some who make P&Y's equipment restrictions look like a Model T.

About some trad shooters being a-holes towards compound shooters...I've been seing that for almost 20 years now. It's nothing new. I also just had the &quot;pleasure&quot; of seeing a high-tech shooter on the Bowsite IL Conference basically say that 99% of all trad shooters should stay out of the woods because they wound everything. I suppose ignorance cuts both ways.

As far as P&Y's rules of fair chase and equipment restrictions...I only know a small handful of people who bay and caw over it. With rare exceptions, the rest of the &quot;bowhunting wisdom&quot; that comes out of their mouths turns my stomachs. Some of these folks would need two promotions just to rise to the level of slobs. I'm not saying that the two are mutually inclusive. But rather, that I've noticed a certain trend here.

And by the way, P&Y is a private organization who's rules and restrictions govern no wildlife laws in any state. They are set up exclusively for members, and those wishing to enter animals for recognition from their organization. No one is legally bound to anything they say, just because they say it.

Arthur, pal, we've played probably 22 rounds of this game already. In the end though, I still respect you, but we just have a different opinion. I agree, the bath water needs a change. I'm just not ready to shove the baby down the drain in the process.

JRW

Arthur, I am glad I bring such great humor to your day.

And I respect you also, JRW. And mhogan and anyone else that will stand toe to toe with me and speak their thoughts clear and plain without having to resort to sophomoric insults.

I'm not ready to toss the baby out with the dirty water either. But when you look at things realistically, the water is going to wind up a lot dirtier before it's said and done, and the baby will have been chopped up into little bits and fed to the hounds. Can we find a way to preserve even a little portion of what we have rather than watch all of it swirl down the porcelain tuba? I don't think so, unless 'progress' gets to the point that a lot of compound shooters finally come to their senses.

An encouraging point is that I have begun to see some signs of that happening over the past year or so.

As far as P&Y being a private org and their rules not being legally binding, that's definitely true. That is, except for some states that based their bowhunting regs on those rules. Now we've got a lot of people are saying if it's legal then it's okay. But there was a time when bowhunters would abide by those rules just because they were THE RULES of bowhunting ethics. Manufacturers wouldn't even produce non-compliant gear because they believed it wouldn't be 'good for the sport.' Remember those days? It wasn't really that long ago.

Heavy stone. Club. Spear. Alatal. Selfbow. Composite bow. Modern Stickbow. Coumpound bow. Crossbow. Gun.....ad infinitum
They are all machines, designed to do the same thing. The difference is the trend-from the beginning-to make the task easier.
This was born of necessity when our ancestors had to kill to eat, but today we hunt for &quot;Sport&quot;.
I don't object to the mechanics (except mechanical broadheads)

What upsets me is the &quot;Instant Bowhunter&quot; who buys the latest and greatest gadgets and a couple weeks later is sitting in a tree somewhere waiting to ambush a deer. He hasn't paid his dues. He hasn't learned Respect and Patience. He'll never know the exuberance of taking a deer with equipment that puts the odds in the animal's favor. He just wants to kill a buck, have it processed and watch the game on TV....

Hunting of all kinds, when done fairly and with the proper reverence for nature and natural things, is to me, the last Pure thing. Everything else has been bastardized.
I would welcome a compound shooter at my fire, and I would welcome any of you. I would run off anyone who showed disrespect for the game, and it wouldn't matter WHAT he shoots!

Your life is made of time, not money.