Honorary Rack Award for Outstanding Post...if memory serves me correctly.

It must have been somewhat coherent as I have only watched the DVDs in recent years. It has been at least 5 or 6 years since I read one of the books....Silmarillion not withstanding.

Personally I think you should go with one of Tom Bombadil's merry songs........better stop now before I really get off topic.

I totally understand where many of you are coming from and I certainly respect your points of view---I hope you respect mine as well---

IMHO one cannot honestly believe that a bow with terrible nock travel or inconsistent limbtip travel will be as accurate or forgiving as one with perfect nock travel and balanced limbtip travel, or even feel as good at the shot in hand---the bow with both perfect travel and balanced travel will ultimately be much easier to shoot and immediately noticeable from anyones' perspective if looked at with an OPEN mind. If anything, Pros will find the LESSER amount of differential between the shooting characteristics of such above mentioned bows, or bows with differing brace heights, etc, while average and even beginners will find the differences much more than neglible between them due to imperfected form structures.

I have personally tuned a bow with a straight limb and round wheel on one end, and a recurve limb of different length and hard cam on the other, just for an example that anything can in fact be tuned--yes it can be done. BUT, the bow handled like garbage and shot TERRIBLY, with much shock and kick. Could I set it up to kill a deer at 20 yds? Probably. WOULD I?? No way! Awful! This is what I'm getting at.

Much like the above scenario, I think what we see here is the conviction of brand loyalty/what's popular taking precedence over the reality of what is honestly the better designed equipment and what will honestly shoot better in a persons' hands. Closer than that scenario above maybe, but still far enough apart to be noticeably apparent. For instance, it has been proven time and time again that a dual cam bow can be balanced (solocams cannot) and even creep-tuned to perfection for each individuals' form/shooting style and thus if done correctly are far easier to shoot/ score higher with, especially at distance---that is why most top Pros shoot twins (or now symmetrical hybrids as the next generation) in formats such as NFAA and FITA. But yet here we are looking at overall sales numbers and many bowhunters still choose a solocam. Why?? IMHO because they see that some have racked up many wins with bought Pros in the 3D game and that company along with others advertise heavily and target hunting with solos. All about popularity and flash and what one sees in the mags and hears about online, and little else IMO--- certainly nothing technically outstanding if honestly compared apples to apples or what people would truly choose if they did not already have these subliminal visions repeatedly stuck in their minds.. all about the numbers....If these companies were to put total emphasis/advertising on twin cams or hybrids (which is admittedly starting now and will really take off soon as the next step forward) or even go as far as to start another craze to let's see-- 4 wheel bows with longer ATA and deeper brace heights that do 400fps, or whatever, I guarantee their popularity and sales would jump to the top also over the course of a couple of years. This is one of the best examples I can give on this. The marketing alone controls the Archery industry in the USA , leads us all around like sheep and convinces us that whatever they want you to believe is great is the cat's butt, even if some (or many) parts of it may not be. Thus subjective testing follows suit due to this popularity and general overall acceptance of these products, and those who are doing it at the time honestly believe what they are reporting because they have no definitive technical equipment/formulas to honestly determine otherwise, and thus others follow when they read these subjective findings, etc, etc, and so it continues.

Moral of the long-winded post:

Only the true technical data can tell you the honest to God truth about products as it cuts through all of the popularity, biasm, and what you may believe you are feeling that our minds have generally obscured due to this popularity and general "If it's good enough for my neighbor, it's good enough for me" syndrome. True technical comparative info does not have any such individual bias/popularity illusions and thus is not obscured in any way, shape, or form. That's how I see it.

Just my two cents. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

Was that comment directed at Jeff's original post or something else?

Jeff... You're right, of course, on each and every point you raised. My #1 tournament bow in the late 80's was a Hoyt ProVantage Tracer. The Tracer was the budget bow in the ProVantage line. I won half the tournaments I shot with that bow. If I'd been shooting one of the high end models, would I have won more tournaments? I doubt it. I've got a Super Slam Legacy, basically the same exact bow as the Tracer only with different camo and high end Carbon Plus limbs. I can't tell any difference.

Frankly, I shot both bows better than the high dollah, high tech, ProTec I've got now. Although, I must admit having replaced the E-wheels on the SuperSlam with modern Accuwheels. Very nice! But don't try that at home, kids!

I just wanted to add, that back in the day, that meant something entirely different...

Frank-

That comment was a generalization, and was not directed at anyone in particular.

Except it leaves out the most important variation: the human element.

If we all had machines shooting our bows for us, then things would be different.

And that's the whole point of this thread.....where does the line blur?

Not always so, Jeff. Only when shooting the bow out of a machine does this hold true. Otherwise the tester is still doing the testing, only instead of "winging it" they are utilizing comparative graphs, charts, and formulas that will work regardless and give exacting/honest comparative results as opposed to "opinion", which can certainly be obscured as stated in my above post. Bows can be compared for speed and decible readings while shot by humans, the only tests that need to be measured by machines are shock/kick at the shot readings and even those differences can be felt by humans if honestly tested, but the machines will always read true on this.. The rest can all be formulated/graphed and compared apples to apples by humans if the time is taken to do so (or is known how to do so)---unfortunately few have the knowledge and/or take the time to do so, or even have the equipment needed for such comparative testing. Over the past several years with the increase of internet exposure everyone wants to do a report online,(why I don't know, but they do) so we see more and more of these subjective reviews popping up everywhere by virtually everyone. Yes, the line certainly "blurs" as you put it....

Does subjective testing help anyone?? Maybe to an extent but then again maybe not IMHO---- again as stated I feel that most of these subjective reports are based upon popularity and/or brand loyalty if not done of a true technical nature, and thus as stated, will be obscured, whether intentionally or not. JMHO. Pinwheel 12

Kevin,

Cool with the first issue I had with your post. Now how about this....

I realize that you used IMHO and IMO to stress the fact that it is just your opinion in this case and in that I cannot argue. However, I still must honestly say that I find it hard to believe that you still have a difficult time accepting that some of us just actually prefer the shooting characteristics of a conventional single cam bow. The draw cycle....the feeling of the bow's back wall and the physical reaction of the bow during the shot all do appeal to some shooters. That, in my opinion, has nothing to do with marketing hype.

Comments?

Since when did a single cam become conventional?? Now I KNOW I'm getting old. [&o]