JeffB

This is somewhat of an offshoot of Kevin’s “tech experience” thread.

As most of you know, I’m a gearhead…a tech-head, whatever you want to call me (that the naughty language filter will allow). Over the years I’ve tried to learn and absorb as much about the technical” aspects of bow, arrow, & accessory design as I could. I think that’s it’s very valuable information in that it allows us to make informed choices instead of being at the mercy of the large percentage of incompetent Archery Shops, Manufacturers claims, or our “buddies” who have been shooting for 6 months.

But as I get older, I wonder just how much of this technical info, in the grand scheme of things, is of major importance. Not that it’s unimportant, but just that it’s not as important as we may feel..especially when it comes down to hunting, or the casual target shooter (i.e. the vast majority of archers in this country)

There are many subjects where the Archery “tech” community is divided mostly based on Manufacturers who’ve draw a line in the sand as to what is “best”: importance of Nock Travel, Single vs. Dual vs. Hybrid, Dropaway vs. launcher vs. Whisker Biscuit, Molded vs. Laminated limbs, Extruded vs. 100% machined risers, plastic vs. metal limb pivots, Roller guards vs. standard cable guards, etc, etc., ad nauseum….

I certainly have my own thoughts on these things based on what I have learned from the technical testing, but oftentimes I find for all the technical proof of why something is or isn’t better, my practical shooting & shop experience shows just the opposite or not enough proof to make any absolute conclusions one way or the other.

e.g.

Nock Travel: While certainly some bows exhibit poor nock travel, and should be harder to tune due to it, Some of my most accurate, easy tuning bows, showed the worst nock travel :shrug:

Limbs: Again like nock travel issues, I’ve had the absolute most expensive limbs on the market, and the least expensive…yet I have not been able to draw any conclusions one way or another over which is truly “better” when it comes down to putting that arrow where I want it. At least I could not single it out to the limbs themselves…

Hybrids/Singles/Duals: Theoretically the hybrids and duals should be more accurate and/or more forgiving, but again my practical experience shows that I shoot more consistently and comfortably with the single-cam design, though it took me awhile to warm up to them (or perhaps, the improvements made in the past 4 years have brought them up to the same level or better of previous cam technology)

Build Tolerances: Like limbs, I’ve had some bows that were absolutely pristine for tolerances..limb pockets, limbs, axles, machining, etc, etc…Yet some of the best shooting bows I’ve owned had horrible build tolerances (and some had very good or pristine tolerances too)

I think only in arrow shafting have I personally been able to draw any solid conclusions that proves the technical “theory”.

Certainly some leeway will have to be given to the technical side of things when we include some of the more “extreme” areas of our sport..Olympic level shooting, any other LONG distance event, etc…where the difference between winning and losing can indeed come down to a technical issue…(yet still often comes down to the jerk jerking on the string)

However, while I think all the technical info is excellent for education,knowledge and for discerning from one end of the quality spectrum to the opposite (i.e, from $hit to shine-ola); assuming a decent piece of equipment, what it all boils down to is the individual…fitting that decent piece of equipment to that individual, and achieving our own “personal tight tolerances” in tuning our form and the bow itself (and using a quality set of arrows ).

Not to ruffle any feathers here (honest), but I'm starting to wonder if subjective tests like the ones we’ve heard about on the BowFight (errr..BowSite), Hunters Friend, or in Outdoor Life/F&S magazines are ultimately the “best” tests there are: meaning that “practical experience” is more important than the “theory” (I’m not concerned with what name is on the limbs, I mean the test itself). The “tech” reports can show us that Bow X’s nock travel and limb to pocket finish or whatever is clearly superior to Bow Z….but if Bow X does not “fit” the archer and he shoots it poorly or at the least not as well,, then does it really matter what the technical tests prove/disprove?


OK Class, discuss..and no flaming!

Coastie

If one of the Yanomami people of the Amazon basin (yes they still do it the old fashioned way) were to be asked, he would likely tell you that if the Bowyer didn't say the proper prayers over the wood while shaping it the bow would be useless. His practical experience tells him that those prayers are a necessary part of building a proper bow, the technical testing would likely come in the forest where he would attempt to bring down a Tapir or other game. Failing to kill on the first attempt or on successive attempts would find him back at the Bowyer demanding additional prayers.
Not much has changed in the thousands of years bows have been in production. The engineer/village bowyer design and build them, the end user blames all failure on the engineer/bowyer and demand additional prayer.

Rangeball

Great post Jeff, and like most things, 99% seem to be pretty much the same, and we argue over the 1% until the cows come home...

Cougar Mag

Good post Jeff! I'm gonna make a comparison...short but sweet, cause I am bustin out to gloat a little!

Sometimes practicality is more logical than logical thinking[8D], for instance..........my Cardinals were projected to finish 3rd behind the almighty Cubs pitching and the Astros. But 30 games from the finish of the regular season..............my Cardinals are 15 games in front!!!!!

What may seem or should work best on paper does not always work the way its projected, archery or baseball!!! Thats the human element which is very unpredictable from shooter to shooter.

Paul L Mohr

This is a very good point Jeff, and I'm surprised to hear it from you honestly. After all, in my opinion you ARE the arrow man. And like you said, very technical oriented.

I will agree whole heartedly with you. I have not really been doing this that long, compared to you and others. I am already seeing how little some things really matter. Especially in target type archery. After some of my own playing, reading a few books and talking to some hard core target archers I have come to my own conclusions. I tell people these things at times that I know, but don't say it too often here for fear of being chastized by all those except the older wiser people. I think about 98 percent of archery is the archer. Form, mental type stuff and how the bow fits you. The other 2 percent is having good arrows. And I don't mean the most expensive target arrows you can get, just arrows that are not messed up crap.

You hand a really great archer an old beat up bow that is out of tune and adjusted wrong and I bet he will group arrows together at 20 yards as long as the arrows match. They don't even have to be the right arrows for the bow, just match. On the other hand, give a bad archer a $2,000 dollar bow with every gizmo and gadget on it and $20 dollar a piece arrows, and he's still going to suck! He will just look good doing it is all. I could be wrong about this, but I believe most if not all of the acuracy records have been set with older 2 wheel type slow bows. Heck I have seen video of a guy shooting things out of the air and nailing pills with a traditional bow instinctively! Now tell me how much more accurate that 120 dollar drop a way rest is really making me? You want the truth, I don't shoot any better with my drop a way than I did my 15 dollar TM hunter. It's more fun to play with though.

One of the books I read said that if you put a bow in a shooting maching it will shoot arrows into groups all day no matter what you do to it. Tiller, nocking point, centershot, fletch contact, doesn't matter, as long at the arrows match in spine and weight. They will hit in different spots when you change something, but they will still group. I have proved it with my bow shooting way underspined arrows and still being pretty accurate with it. As acurate as I can be anyway.

I agree with you on the cam and nock travel thing as well. I have a darton with the cps cams. Excellent cams, very well designed. I could shoot this bow at virtually 90 degrees nocking point. My new bowtech is pretty nock high compared to what i am used to, just doesn't look right at rest. Guess what, I shoot it better than I did my darton!? Like I said, I think it's the narrower grip, just fits me better. Does it tune well? I don't know, I robin hooded a fletched shaft into a bare shaft the other day when bare shaft tuning it, broke a nock on another one. Does that sound like nock travel effects anything? And that was at 30 yards, not 10. I don't normally shoot that well actually, I was having a very good day that day. It happens from time to time with me.

I'm not saying none of this stuff works and it's all BS. Some of it has it's merits and certainly helps the average archer like myself. I don't think I could shoot nearly as well without a release and the amount of let off I have. And I couldn't hit anything without sights, I'm sure of it. And most of this applies to target type stuff at closer ranges. When you screw a broad head on the arrow some things change a bit. Better more adjustable rests and stuff like that come in handy. They sure help give some leeway for poor or odd form, or less than optimal spine arrows.

In the end I think some of this stuff just makes you think you shoot better, so you do, at least for a while anyway. This is a very mental game we play. If you are more confident and enthused about what you are doing, you will do better.

Great thread Jeff.

Paul

JOE PA

All the technical advances may make a difference if the shooter is really good enough to tell the difference. I am not that shooter. I have shot most of my good scores this year with a mid-nineties 2 cam bow with steel cables, no peep sight (not a NO PEEP), and no moving parts shoot through rest. For most of the summer, I shot better with a put-together bow with somewhat out-of tiller limbs and a B2 Whisker Biscuit than I did with a brand new factory bow that a few guys at Edersbow are braggin' on like it's the best ever made. I FINALLY this week shot a better average score with my new hybrid cam bow than I ever have with anything else (122/130), but was it the bow, or did I just have a good day. Maybe I am just starting to judge distance better.
The really tecnical analysis is interesting to read, and may make a difference for that guy who can consistently hit Xs out to 45 yards, and can tell when he's on the X, and his equipment caused a miss. One of those guys may be able to tell you what a difference it makes. For me, the subjective is important, things like the force-draw curve, valley, feel of the shot, etc. But, I find I have to shoot a bow for a while, maybe a month or at least a few weeks, before I really know what I am able to do with it. I have been disappointed with bows that others rave about, and very happy with bows that most guys seem unimpressed with. Sometimes a little thing that most people wouldn't notice or could overlook will be the straw that broke the camel's back for others. For me, one thing that is like that is the total lack of a valley. I know that if you shoot off the wall with back tension, it souldn't matter at all, but if I can't feel relaxed at full draw, I don't shoot well. Someone else could pick up a bow like that and shoot lights out with it.

Right now, I have about a month before the season starts, a co-worker who has invited me to hunt her property (she's been seeing 2 respectable bucks almost nightly), and a few bows, all of which are shooting better than I can. It's time to stop worrying over trivialities, and get some quality practice time in.

Bigpapascout

too much reading makes my head hurt jeff
if you think all that techno weenie mumbo jumbo is a bunch of nonsence simply do it how you like.
I am probably one of the biggest techno weenies on this site I Paper tune
weigh all of my arrow components the whole deal, really not that important hunting white tails, turkey and wild hogs but when it comes high scores on the 3d course I think it is very inportant to know as much as you can about your equipment and how to make it work to it's optimal peak preformance otherwise I will embarass you at the stake[8D]

JeffB

Please let me make clear that my "argument" is based on the assumption of well tuned and matched equipment..this is key. Let me also reiterate that some of these things are not unimportant , but simply less important than the weight given to them at times.

Good discussion..keep it up!

PABowhntr

I consider myself a "techno-junkie" as well and yet also do concur with your point of view. I love buying a few dozen arrows to see not only which is the best for my setup but also how they compare from a tolerance standpoint. Yet, I realize that most of that is done because of my obsession (or interest if you like) for the gear itself and not necessarily because it is absolutely necessary for me to successfully hunt and shoot.

Bravo on this post Jeff. I have to talk to Matt and see if I can get him to dig up that HRAOP icon to stick in your post. You definitely deserve it with this one.

Oh, and you really need to stop watching those Lord of the Rings DVDs over and over again Jeff.

JeffB

Not familiar with this? Explain please?

It's practically incoherent in FotR (barring the Extended edition Council of Elrond where Gandalf recites it)..so it's more of a "book thing" (I still prefer the books). Maybe I'll google around for the entire passage and put that in my sig, seeing as how you like it so much