Lets argue
08-06-2007 | 03:57 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Giant Nontypical
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,455
Likes: 0
From: Burleson TX USA
Lets argue
As mentioned in TFox's tuning thread by ArthurP lets argue about "creep Tuning" or "super Tuning"
Now instead of me typing all this out ( my 2 fingers can only type so fast)
I went into the archives and found the creep tuning article written by Pinwheel 12.
This is the method I use for Dual Cam and Binary Cams, unfortunately I dont have a lot of experience with the Hybrid or Cam & 1/2 bows.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Go out and put a + on a target butt with electrical tape or whatever.
Step back to 20 yds, and shoot a group at the center of the +.
Adjust your sight till you hit center. If your group is large,
after making sight adjustments to hit as close as you can to the
center of the +, make SMALL adjustments to your rest or nocking point
and shoot another group. If needed, shoot another with more SMALL
adjustments. Continue this until you are satified with your group
size. Then check at 30, 40, whatever yardage you want, and adjust
accordingly if your groups wander to right or left or open up more
than you feel is "normal". Always take into consideration your individual
skills and abilities. If you know you shot a poor group, do not count it.
Do NOT rush this process, and if you get fatigued, quit and continue
again later when you are refreshed.
To "supertune" (twin cam only) you simply go to the next step of the
group tuning process. You shoot your initial group at 20 yds, then do
it again, only this time creep forward slightly (about 1/8" or so) with
the second group. If your impact point hits higher or lower than the
original group at normal anchor, your bow needs a twist on the cables
to "bring it in". If you hit high, twist the lower buss cable 1/2 turn.
If it hits low, the upper cable. Continue this process until you have
the same impact point heights regardless of creep or overdraw.
You do not need to go to 40 yds on the supertuning process.
You'll be surprised how well you will consistently shoot with a group
tuned/supertuned bow. Solocams cannot be supertuned because they have no opposing cam with which to balance the system.
-------------------------------------------------------
Ok now let the games begin
Now instead of me typing all this out ( my 2 fingers can only type so fast)
I went into the archives and found the creep tuning article written by Pinwheel 12.This is the method I use for Dual Cam and Binary Cams, unfortunately I dont have a lot of experience with the Hybrid or Cam & 1/2 bows.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Go out and put a + on a target butt with electrical tape or whatever.
Step back to 20 yds, and shoot a group at the center of the +.
Adjust your sight till you hit center. If your group is large,
after making sight adjustments to hit as close as you can to the
center of the +, make SMALL adjustments to your rest or nocking point
and shoot another group. If needed, shoot another with more SMALL
adjustments. Continue this until you are satified with your group
size. Then check at 30, 40, whatever yardage you want, and adjust
accordingly if your groups wander to right or left or open up more
than you feel is "normal". Always take into consideration your individual
skills and abilities. If you know you shot a poor group, do not count it.
Do NOT rush this process, and if you get fatigued, quit and continue
again later when you are refreshed.
To "supertune" (twin cam only) you simply go to the next step of the
group tuning process. You shoot your initial group at 20 yds, then do
it again, only this time creep forward slightly (about 1/8" or so) with
the second group. If your impact point hits higher or lower than the
original group at normal anchor, your bow needs a twist on the cables
to "bring it in". If you hit high, twist the lower buss cable 1/2 turn.
If it hits low, the upper cable. Continue this process until you have
the same impact point heights regardless of creep or overdraw.
You do not need to go to 40 yds on the supertuning process.
You'll be surprised how well you will consistently shoot with a group
tuned/supertuned bow. Solocams cannot be supertuned because they have no opposing cam with which to balance the system.
-------------------------------------------------------
Ok now let the games begin
08-06-2007 | 04:44 PM
#2
Typical Buck
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs, CO
RE: Lets argue
I'll bite, from the other thread I tune nothing like you guys do. First I use aT square to center the string on the square and mark it[I have a mark for each bow on the squarebecause they are not the same]. Then put an arrow on the rest and center the arrow with the string from the mark on the square. I dont measure from the risor. Key point here: finger shooters should be outside of the string, rope release dead on the string, caliper release just inside the string. These are starting points! Nock point on the string dead flat, again starting point. Then shoot an arrow between 10 and 15 yds. If it hits the target dead on move back to 25. "Note I don't have a 20 or 30 yd pin, I use 25 & 40 yd pins." If it didn't hit straight make adjustments until it does, then move back to 25. If you have a 1" group at twenty five yards move back to 40yds. If the group is working move back to 50, then 60, then 70, then 80yds. At 80yds your group should be no bigger than 6". When you get here you are ready for broadheads."Note: my broadheads always hit a little left of my field tips, reason field tips 125gr and broadheads 130gr. At 25yds the distance left is about an inch, but this shouldn't change much at farther distances." If it is higher or lower ormore than an inchleft or right I move rest or nock point to get what I want. When braodheads are grouping like field points at 25yds I start moving back, 40 ,50, 60, 70, 80. When I am done the pins are straight up and down and I am shooting 6" groups at 80yds with broadheads. To me this is a tuned bow. If I have a broadhead arrow that refuses to comply with the rest. I try to tune that arrow by a number of means, change nock, tune broadhead, reglue vanes or what ever I can do. If I can't get it to comply, it gets refitted with a field tip or judo point.
Gselkhunter
Gselkhunter
08-06-2007 | 06:04 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,679
Likes: 0
From: Albany, NY
RE: Lets argue
Great subject, and this is an area of tuning that so many overlook. I have to say this piece of tuning is probably the most important to me for competition purposes assuming the bow fits me. Assuming you have good broadhead flight it is one of the most critical in my opinion for hunting as well because hunting situations are so conducive to shots from wierd angles and footing, etc where it would be easy to shoot a less than perfect shot from outside the optimum position in the valley.
Why creep tuning is important:
Most people don't realize it, however it is very difficult and takes a great deal of training to consistenly execute every shot from the same spot in the valley. Many people don't realize this and think if they are shooting a bow with a hard draw stop (new bowtech's, etc) that they are shooting from the same position every time. Fact is 99.9% of shooters are not able to consistenly shoot from the same spot in the valley, even with a hard draw stop. This can be proven on camera with video taken showing the tip of the arrow in reference to the rest and riser close up through the shot routine. Even given ideal footing and time to setup for perfect form, very few archers are able to consistently do this even 30 times in a row for a vegas 300 game. The end result from a bow that is not creep tuned is high/low misses even though your pin was on the spot you intended to hit when the shot executed. Even draw stop bows can be shot from as far back as an extra 1/4" past the bottom of the valley if you pull into the wall. This sounds minute, but a poorly creep tuned bow can result in a 6" change in the POI from creeping 1/4, or pulling too hard into the stops. This in my opinion is another great reason that releases such as the Carter Evolution is such a great option, it ensures that as long as that release is consistent in breaking that the shot is executed from the same spot in the valley EVERY TIME. Add in the fact that small things such as grip changes and front/back balance affected by stabilizers can all change the timing of the bow slightly, and now creep tuning becomes so important.
Now to show you the result of what can happen when these shots are executed from the front, middle, and back of the valley.........place a horizontal strip of tape and step back to 20 yards or wherever you are consistent enough to hit a 1" spot from consistenly. Take your bow and shoot 3 arrows from the very front of the valley, 3 from the middle of the valley, now shoot 3 pulling hard into the wall. See where those arrows group and discount the ones that were bad shots (you should know). Unless your bow is perfectly creep tuned they will usually not group in the same position. Example......my Martin Slayer after doing all the other tuning methods I usually do......at 30 yards was shooting an arrow off the front of the valley about 4" higher than a shot from the middle of the valley. Now with my Slayer creep tuned, at 33 yards (my second pin) I am able to make shots from the front of the valley hit the same horizontal tape line as shots from the back of the valley. I actually ended up in second place in a 3D shoot earlier this year because of a weak shot on the last target that caused my arrow to go about 5" high. I have since creep tuned the bow to the point where if I want to become more finely tuned I need shorter cables so the twist rate is lower, i.e. a half twist in the cable is too aggressive to actually get those shots to the point of where I am capable as a shooter to put the arrow. I was also able to tune my Martin Scepter IV this winter to have shots from anywhere in the valley hit the X ring on a vegas target at 20 yards, after tuning it this way my X counts jumped by 4-5 X's per game........a significant amount. That's a drastic change and means a lot more at longer distances and especially under the less than ideal conditions that 3D, field archery, or hunting can present to you.
Cam styles and how they are affected:
Binary cams to my knowledge should be able to be creep tuned on the newer style cams on the guardian and commander since there is no draw stop, however the cam styles previous to this I believe it affect letoff percentage by changing only one cable length. I have not personally tried to creep tune a binary cam bow though, and would love to hear from someone that has successfully or unsuccesfully tried to do so. I am also curious to know if the slaving design of the cams negates any changes made to a single cable. I would love to see if a proficient shooter can see changes in POI from front, middle, and back of the cams valley on these bows...........anyone that has input let's hear it.
Cam and half, C/P/S and other hybrids can be creep tuned, however your going to be tuning for same impact point from middle of the valley to hard into the wall.
Single cams cannot be "creep tuned" exactly, however you will find a certain cam position to be most forgiving of creeping on the shot and hard into the wall. The trick is finding this position in the cam rotation while still having the perfect draw length for your most repeatable form. As an extra reference on a single cam bow put it on a draw board and make a pair of tapes on the cable/string (one on each) that are next to eachother at full draw. Once in the absolute bottom of the valley per the scale on the draw board.....draw a line on the two tapes so that when at full draw you have the two lines directly next to eachother as a reference. Add it in as a reference in your shot sequence and if it doesn't line up let down and start again. You can train with these and then take them off once you have become proficient at setting up the shot and position in the valley. You of course want these tapes to be in the line of sight between your peep and sight when at full draw. This is an old trick used by field archers and can be used on any bow but I usually only use it for a single cam bow being used for competition as an extra reference. Because of training with this method, I still to this day have shot my personal best field archery (555) and indoor scores (448/450) using a single cam bow.
Finally.....twin cams are easily tuned using the creep method, and they are probably also the most important to creep tune as well. With a dual cam setup, I can literally get that arrow to hit the X on a vegas target from 20 yards at any point in the valley.
One more great article by George Ryals on creep tuning and how exactly to do it, hopefully this makes sense and connects the dots on my rambling above.........[8D]
Why creep tuning is important:
Most people don't realize it, however it is very difficult and takes a great deal of training to consistenly execute every shot from the same spot in the valley. Many people don't realize this and think if they are shooting a bow with a hard draw stop (new bowtech's, etc) that they are shooting from the same position every time. Fact is 99.9% of shooters are not able to consistenly shoot from the same spot in the valley, even with a hard draw stop. This can be proven on camera with video taken showing the tip of the arrow in reference to the rest and riser close up through the shot routine. Even given ideal footing and time to setup for perfect form, very few archers are able to consistently do this even 30 times in a row for a vegas 300 game. The end result from a bow that is not creep tuned is high/low misses even though your pin was on the spot you intended to hit when the shot executed. Even draw stop bows can be shot from as far back as an extra 1/4" past the bottom of the valley if you pull into the wall. This sounds minute, but a poorly creep tuned bow can result in a 6" change in the POI from creeping 1/4, or pulling too hard into the stops. This in my opinion is another great reason that releases such as the Carter Evolution is such a great option, it ensures that as long as that release is consistent in breaking that the shot is executed from the same spot in the valley EVERY TIME. Add in the fact that small things such as grip changes and front/back balance affected by stabilizers can all change the timing of the bow slightly, and now creep tuning becomes so important.
Now to show you the result of what can happen when these shots are executed from the front, middle, and back of the valley.........place a horizontal strip of tape and step back to 20 yards or wherever you are consistent enough to hit a 1" spot from consistenly. Take your bow and shoot 3 arrows from the very front of the valley, 3 from the middle of the valley, now shoot 3 pulling hard into the wall. See where those arrows group and discount the ones that were bad shots (you should know). Unless your bow is perfectly creep tuned they will usually not group in the same position. Example......my Martin Slayer after doing all the other tuning methods I usually do......at 30 yards was shooting an arrow off the front of the valley about 4" higher than a shot from the middle of the valley. Now with my Slayer creep tuned, at 33 yards (my second pin) I am able to make shots from the front of the valley hit the same horizontal tape line as shots from the back of the valley. I actually ended up in second place in a 3D shoot earlier this year because of a weak shot on the last target that caused my arrow to go about 5" high. I have since creep tuned the bow to the point where if I want to become more finely tuned I need shorter cables so the twist rate is lower, i.e. a half twist in the cable is too aggressive to actually get those shots to the point of where I am capable as a shooter to put the arrow. I was also able to tune my Martin Scepter IV this winter to have shots from anywhere in the valley hit the X ring on a vegas target at 20 yards, after tuning it this way my X counts jumped by 4-5 X's per game........a significant amount. That's a drastic change and means a lot more at longer distances and especially under the less than ideal conditions that 3D, field archery, or hunting can present to you.
Cam styles and how they are affected:
Binary cams to my knowledge should be able to be creep tuned on the newer style cams on the guardian and commander since there is no draw stop, however the cam styles previous to this I believe it affect letoff percentage by changing only one cable length. I have not personally tried to creep tune a binary cam bow though, and would love to hear from someone that has successfully or unsuccesfully tried to do so. I am also curious to know if the slaving design of the cams negates any changes made to a single cable. I would love to see if a proficient shooter can see changes in POI from front, middle, and back of the cams valley on these bows...........anyone that has input let's hear it.
Cam and half, C/P/S and other hybrids can be creep tuned, however your going to be tuning for same impact point from middle of the valley to hard into the wall.
Single cams cannot be "creep tuned" exactly, however you will find a certain cam position to be most forgiving of creeping on the shot and hard into the wall. The trick is finding this position in the cam rotation while still having the perfect draw length for your most repeatable form. As an extra reference on a single cam bow put it on a draw board and make a pair of tapes on the cable/string (one on each) that are next to eachother at full draw. Once in the absolute bottom of the valley per the scale on the draw board.....draw a line on the two tapes so that when at full draw you have the two lines directly next to eachother as a reference. Add it in as a reference in your shot sequence and if it doesn't line up let down and start again. You can train with these and then take them off once you have become proficient at setting up the shot and position in the valley. You of course want these tapes to be in the line of sight between your peep and sight when at full draw. This is an old trick used by field archers and can be used on any bow but I usually only use it for a single cam bow being used for competition as an extra reference. Because of training with this method, I still to this day have shot my personal best field archery (555) and indoor scores (448/450) using a single cam bow.
Finally.....twin cams are easily tuned using the creep method, and they are probably also the most important to creep tune as well. With a dual cam setup, I can literally get that arrow to hit the X on a vegas target from 20 yards at any point in the valley.
One more great article by George Ryals on creep tuning and how exactly to do it, hopefully this makes sense and connects the dots on my rambling above.........[8D]
The Creep Tune Procedure
by George Ryals
1. Set the timing as close as you can by eye (you don't have put a micrometer on it; just get as close as you can)
2. Sight your bow in at twenty yards.
3. Put a piece of masking tape on your target butt horizontally. In a pinch, you can use the top edge of a target face.
4. Pull your bow into the wall as hard as you can and shoot arrow #1 at the tape.
On the next shot, creep forward to the front of the valley and shoot arrow #2 at the tape. You make need to re-shoot these shots a couple of times to rule out bad shots.
5. If your bow is in perfect time, both arrows will hit the tape or they will land on the same horizontal plane. (Level with the tape or on the tape)
If the "creep" shot hits HIGH, TIGHTEN or SHORTEN the cable that connects to the BOTTOM cam.
If the "creep" shot hits LOW, TIGHTEN or SHORTEN the cable that connects to the TOP cam.
Make very small, one or two turn, adjustments a time. A little twist goes a long way. You can fine-tune your timing by repeating the test at forty yards. If you make an adjustment at this distance do not turn your cable more that a half a turn at a time. Too much adjustment at this distance can send an arrow over the target butt or in the dirt. When you have completed the test, your bow will be in perfect time, and given that your other accessories are adjusted properly, your bow is as accurate as it can possibly be.
by George Ryals
1. Set the timing as close as you can by eye (you don't have put a micrometer on it; just get as close as you can)
2. Sight your bow in at twenty yards.
3. Put a piece of masking tape on your target butt horizontally. In a pinch, you can use the top edge of a target face.
4. Pull your bow into the wall as hard as you can and shoot arrow #1 at the tape.
On the next shot, creep forward to the front of the valley and shoot arrow #2 at the tape. You make need to re-shoot these shots a couple of times to rule out bad shots.
5. If your bow is in perfect time, both arrows will hit the tape or they will land on the same horizontal plane. (Level with the tape or on the tape)
If the "creep" shot hits HIGH, TIGHTEN or SHORTEN the cable that connects to the BOTTOM cam.
If the "creep" shot hits LOW, TIGHTEN or SHORTEN the cable that connects to the TOP cam.
Make very small, one or two turn, adjustments a time. A little twist goes a long way. You can fine-tune your timing by repeating the test at forty yards. If you make an adjustment at this distance do not turn your cable more that a half a turn at a time. Too much adjustment at this distance can send an arrow over the target butt or in the dirt. When you have completed the test, your bow will be in perfect time, and given that your other accessories are adjusted properly, your bow is as accurate as it can possibly be.
08-06-2007 | 06:12 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,188
Likes: 0
From: Balt, MD (orig: J-town,PA) The bowels of Hell!!!
RE: Lets argue
Good article and sorry if this seems like a hijack but it goes with all the tuning help that you guys are posting.
Here's something I ran into today. Last week I was adjusting the drop on my QAD and let the barrel slide a little. I checked at distance and through paper and the tear was perfect. However, ever once in a while I could see an arrow do a little tiny fishtail and my arrows were slightly off center in the target. I asked MDBUCKHUNTER if he noticed this at all and he said, No". So, I thought I was imagining things.
Well, the bow still shot good groups back to 40 yds today. (Or at least as good as I can shoot). No problems with the arrows moving left as I moved from 20-40. Or at least if it was it was a very small amount. But I'd get 1 arrow that wouldn't quit cooperate and I assumed it was me.
However, I go shooting today I could see the arrows (not all 3 during1 group)fishtailing just a little on their way down stream just like Saturday and could see that my arrows were not grouping as good as they should.
With the QAD Hunter you loosen a lock down bolt and slide the barrel by hand to adjust. There are small marks but they are not very close together. So, I barely slide the barrel about 1/64" or less to the right and bingo the fishtailing is gone and my groups tightened-up. All right together at 40 yds if I shot right.
I learned3 things tonight.
1.I'm not as crazy as I was starting to believe.
2. Josh is blind and can't see an arrow fishtailing.
3. I think this is where the advice that you guys give about a micro adjust rest really comes in handy and is a great idea.
I may give creep tuninga try next to get super-tuned. After reading Rick James' post andthinking a great deal if it's even possible due to the slaved cams I may not. I know that you can adjust the cables and stringto correct if the marks are off a little on the binaries.And I do believe that the let-off will be changes. I know that moving the stop a very small amount changes the let-off from 65% to 80% due to the steep valley.
Sorry again for the hijack.
Here's something I ran into today. Last week I was adjusting the drop on my QAD and let the barrel slide a little. I checked at distance and through paper and the tear was perfect. However, ever once in a while I could see an arrow do a little tiny fishtail and my arrows were slightly off center in the target. I asked MDBUCKHUNTER if he noticed this at all and he said, No". So, I thought I was imagining things.
Well, the bow still shot good groups back to 40 yds today. (Or at least as good as I can shoot). No problems with the arrows moving left as I moved from 20-40. Or at least if it was it was a very small amount. But I'd get 1 arrow that wouldn't quit cooperate and I assumed it was me.
However, I go shooting today I could see the arrows (not all 3 during1 group)fishtailing just a little on their way down stream just like Saturday and could see that my arrows were not grouping as good as they should.
With the QAD Hunter you loosen a lock down bolt and slide the barrel by hand to adjust. There are small marks but they are not very close together. So, I barely slide the barrel about 1/64" or less to the right and bingo the fishtailing is gone and my groups tightened-up. All right together at 40 yds if I shot right.
I learned3 things tonight.
1.I'm not as crazy as I was starting to believe.
2. Josh is blind and can't see an arrow fishtailing.
3. I think this is where the advice that you guys give about a micro adjust rest really comes in handy and is a great idea.
I may give creep tuninga try next to get super-tuned. After reading Rick James' post andthinking a great deal if it's even possible due to the slaved cams I may not. I know that you can adjust the cables and stringto correct if the marks are off a little on the binaries.And I do believe that the let-off will be changes. I know that moving the stop a very small amount changes the let-off from 65% to 80% due to the steep valley.
Sorry again for the hijack.
08-06-2007 | 06:17 PM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,679
Likes: 0
From: Albany, NY
RE: Lets argue
ORIGINAL: davepjr71
Last week I was adjusting the drop on my QAD
Last week I was adjusting the drop on my QAD
What happens to your drop away on those shots that you are subconsiously creeping on before execution?
08-06-2007 | 06:19 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,188
Likes: 0
From: Balt, MD (orig: J-town,PA) The bowels of Hell!!!
RE: Lets argue
You smack the snot out of the fork if you creep forward. I've done this by accident and it hits the fork hard enough to rotate the barrel!!! That's a very good thought.
08-06-2007 | 06:19 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,679
Likes: 0
From: Albany, NY
RE: Lets argue
ORIGINAL: davepjr71
I may give creep tuninga try next to get super-tuned. After reading Rick James' post andthinking a great deal if it's even possible due to the slaved cams I may not. I know that you can adjust the cables and stringto correct if the marks are off a little on the binaries.And I do believe that the let-off will be changes. I know that moving the stop a very small amount changes the let-off from 65% to 80% due to the steep valley.
Sorry again for the hijack.
I may give creep tuninga try next to get super-tuned. After reading Rick James' post andthinking a great deal if it's even possible due to the slaved cams I may not. I know that you can adjust the cables and stringto correct if the marks are off a little on the binaries.And I do believe that the let-off will be changes. I know that moving the stop a very small amount changes the let-off from 65% to 80% due to the steep valley.
Sorry again for the hijack.
08-06-2007 | 06:21 PM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,188
Likes: 0
From: Balt, MD (orig: J-town,PA) The bowels of Hell!!!
RE: Lets argue
I may have to throw the WB on to do an experiment like this. Anybody have any thoughts about drop aways with creep tuning?
I've never tried this method before so it would be new for me and a learning experience.
I've never tried this method before so it would be new for me and a learning experience.
08-06-2007 | 06:34 PM
#9
Boone & Crockett
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 12,563
Likes: 0
From: Burleson Texas
RE: Lets argue
I don't sweat the small stuff... I let Gib make my strings, and let Ausie fine tune everything for me, hook me up with the right equipment, and a great price.. That is the least he could do for me, for meallowing him to hang out with me.
Aint that right Gib.. you know how he can be.[:@]
Aint that right Gib.. you know how he can be.[:@]
08-06-2007 | 07:44 PM
#10
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,562
Likes: 0
From: Roanoke, Va
RE: Lets argue
I'm really interested in supertuning my bow. Theres one problem though. I do not own a press.So no twisting cables for me. Hell, I haven't even pressed a bow before. Emailed WWAG but hes not making them anymore[&o] and I don't want to spend an arm and a leg.
Great thread.
Great thread.