MZE Paper Tuning issue
06-01-2007, 02:46 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
MZE Paper Tuning issue
I am working on tuning my old PSE. It has a MZE. I did have a high tear and little right. I can get rid of the high tear. But when I get rid of the high tear, my right tear (fletch hitting to the right) gets much worse like 1.5" tear shooting at 10ft. I can not get rid of the right tear unless I put the high tear back up. I am thinking the MZE is not dropping quick enough. It is setup to drop within 3-4" when you manually pull back the bow and let down slowly. But the clue that the right tear got much worse when I lower the nock.
For you drop away guys, what do ya think? I think I am going to play and make it drop quicker?
For you drop away guys, what do ya think? I think I am going to play and make it drop quicker?
06-01-2007, 02:53 PM
#2
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Posts: n/a
RE: MZE Paper Tuning issue
Also my setup is PSE Mohave 68#, 29.5" draw, 44" ATA, 7.25" Brace hieght.
Arrows used is Beman Hawk 400 cut at 29.5" with 100gr tips
and trying 29.5" Beman Black max 340's, with 100gr tip.
I realize the black max is little stiff, but figured I would try. The bow just got new FF strings and cables. I have timed the cams, and checked for cam lean. All good.
Arrows used is Beman Hawk 400 cut at 29.5" with 100gr tips
and trying 29.5" Beman Black max 340's, with 100gr tip.
I realize the black max is little stiff, but figured I would try. The bow just got new FF strings and cables. I have timed the cams, and checked for cam lean. All good.
06-02-2007, 09:05 AM
#3
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: MZE Paper Tuning issue
My first question is what are you going to do with this bow? Are you going to target shoot with it, hunt with it or screw around in your back yard?
The honest truth is my answer will be the same in all cases. Take the paper, crumple it up and thow it away! Me personally I would go with the slightly high tear myself. Many tune on purpose for a slight high left tear I think, not a bullet hole. When I paper tune I am looking for huge tears, like 2 or 3 inches. If I am an inch or so off and it's consistant I will just move to the next level tuning.
If you are going to hunt with it get some good broad heads, spin your arrows with the heads on them then go shoot. Make any adjustments you need to make that way. Because if you end up getting a perfect bullet hole in the paper, chances are you will just change it again when you broad head tune. Unless you have perfect spine.
If you are going to target shoot I would bare shaft tune or group tune.
If you are just going to dink around in your yard I would just quit messing with it and shoot it. Spending hours or days getting it to paper tune perfectly probably will do nothing to make it more accurate. Your time would be better spent blind bale shooting or something in my opinion.
I have noticed with most of my bows my drop a ways require a slightly higher nock setting to tune correctly. Don't know why, but it usually works out that way. If you are not having contact issues I would not worry about the timing of the rest.
In most cases regardless of the rest type, if you can't get a good tear or get the bow to tune well or have to throw it seriously out of whack to get it there you have other issues. Usually a form, grip or spine problem, or all three sometimes. Numbering your arrows doesn't hurt either, before you go adjusting you want to know it isn't a couple of bad arrows causing you fits.
Hey, shouldn't we be asking you questions after your seminar?
Len is a muzzy expert you should have picked his brain a bit more
.
My opinions anyway and nothing more.
Paul
The honest truth is my answer will be the same in all cases. Take the paper, crumple it up and thow it away! Me personally I would go with the slightly high tear myself. Many tune on purpose for a slight high left tear I think, not a bullet hole. When I paper tune I am looking for huge tears, like 2 or 3 inches. If I am an inch or so off and it's consistant I will just move to the next level tuning.
If you are going to hunt with it get some good broad heads, spin your arrows with the heads on them then go shoot. Make any adjustments you need to make that way. Because if you end up getting a perfect bullet hole in the paper, chances are you will just change it again when you broad head tune. Unless you have perfect spine.
If you are going to target shoot I would bare shaft tune or group tune.
If you are just going to dink around in your yard I would just quit messing with it and shoot it. Spending hours or days getting it to paper tune perfectly probably will do nothing to make it more accurate. Your time would be better spent blind bale shooting or something in my opinion.
I have noticed with most of my bows my drop a ways require a slightly higher nock setting to tune correctly. Don't know why, but it usually works out that way. If you are not having contact issues I would not worry about the timing of the rest.
In most cases regardless of the rest type, if you can't get a good tear or get the bow to tune well or have to throw it seriously out of whack to get it there you have other issues. Usually a form, grip or spine problem, or all three sometimes. Numbering your arrows doesn't hurt either, before you go adjusting you want to know it isn't a couple of bad arrows causing you fits.
Hey, shouldn't we be asking you questions after your seminar?
Len is a muzzy expert you should have picked his brain a bit more.My opinions anyway and nothing more.
Paul
06-02-2007, 09:28 AM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: MZE Paper Tuning issue
ORIGINAL: Paul L Mohr
My first question is what are you going to do with this bow? Are you going to target shoot with it, hunt with it or screw around in your back yard?
The honest truth is my answer will be the same in all cases. Take the paper, crumple it up and thow it away! Me personally I would go with the slightly high tear myself. Many tune on purpose for a slight high left tear I think, not a bullet hole. When I paper tune I am looking for huge tears, like 2 or 3 inches. If I am an inch or so off and it's consistant I will just move to the next level tuning.
If you are going to hunt with it get some good broad heads, spin your arrows with the heads on them then go shoot. Make any adjustments you need to make that way. Because if you end up getting a perfect bullet hole in the paper, chances are you will just change it again when you broad head tune. Unless you have perfect spine.
If you are going to target shoot I would bare shaft tune or group tune.
If you are just going to dink around in your yard I would just quit messing with it and shoot it. Spending hours or days getting it to paper tune perfectly probably will do nothing to make it more accurate. Your time would be better spent blind bale shooting or something in my opinion.
I have noticed with most of my bows my drop a ways require a slightly higher nock setting to tune correctly. Don't know why, but it usually works out that way. If you are not having contact issues I would not worry about the timing of the rest.
In most cases regardless of the rest type, if you can't get a good tear or get the bow to tune well or have to throw it seriously out of whack to get it there you have other issues. Usually a form, grip or spine problem, or all three sometimes. Numbering your arrows doesn't hurt either, before you go adjusting you want to know it isn't a couple of bad arrows causing you fits.
Hey, shouldn't we be asking you questions after your seminar? Len is a muzzy expert you should have picked his brain a bit more.
My opinions anyway and nothing more.
Paul
My first question is what are you going to do with this bow? Are you going to target shoot with it, hunt with it or screw around in your back yard?
The honest truth is my answer will be the same in all cases. Take the paper, crumple it up and thow it away! Me personally I would go with the slightly high tear myself. Many tune on purpose for a slight high left tear I think, not a bullet hole. When I paper tune I am looking for huge tears, like 2 or 3 inches. If I am an inch or so off and it's consistant I will just move to the next level tuning.
If you are going to hunt with it get some good broad heads, spin your arrows with the heads on them then go shoot. Make any adjustments you need to make that way. Because if you end up getting a perfect bullet hole in the paper, chances are you will just change it again when you broad head tune. Unless you have perfect spine.
If you are going to target shoot I would bare shaft tune or group tune.
If you are just going to dink around in your yard I would just quit messing with it and shoot it. Spending hours or days getting it to paper tune perfectly probably will do nothing to make it more accurate. Your time would be better spent blind bale shooting or something in my opinion.
I have noticed with most of my bows my drop a ways require a slightly higher nock setting to tune correctly. Don't know why, but it usually works out that way. If you are not having contact issues I would not worry about the timing of the rest.
In most cases regardless of the rest type, if you can't get a good tear or get the bow to tune well or have to throw it seriously out of whack to get it there you have other issues. Usually a form, grip or spine problem, or all three sometimes. Numbering your arrows doesn't hurt either, before you go adjusting you want to know it isn't a couple of bad arrows causing you fits.
Hey, shouldn't we be asking you questions after your seminar?
Len is a muzzy expert you should have picked his brain a bit more.My opinions anyway and nothing more.
Paul
Now, I could go this route as its a spare hunting bow, that I am using to learn new techniques. But this is a technical page for tinkerers. And I love just playing and learning new things.Paul, I am just playing around. Its a spare bow. And your right, it doesn't matter if I am target, hunting or what, bottom line is I like good flight. A target shooter, or hunter all have one goal. Good arrow flight. A hunter just requires it with a broadhead.
I hate bareshaft shooting. I myself find it as a rough starting place. That will give you rough ideas for spine and rough settings for your nock, etc. After that I like to paper tune. After that, I like to broadhead tune. What I have found is even after papertuning with bullet holes, after I broadhead fine tune at 20, 30, and maybe 40 yards, I come back to paper, and still see bullet holes. That has always lead me to beleive that broadhead tuning is a more microtune than papertune.
But I find 4 issues that will throw a monkey wrench in any of these techniques and give you false indicators. I am worried about 1 and 3.
If I get time this weekend, I am going to get the MZE to drop within 1" of release and see what happens. I have always worried the MZE will not drop as fast as a string drop away due to its not spring loaded. I always had the idea that if you let down slowly and it starts to drop 3" from full draw, then on a real shot, it maybe 5-8". I could be wrong.
1. clearance
2. Bad arrow
3.wrong spine
4. Form
06-02-2007, 09:57 AM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: MZE Paper Tuning issue
I feel the same way about paper tuning, worthless in my opinion and I don't even bother with it. To each his own I guess. I think it's good to see if something is grossly out of whack, you have contact issue or your form is very poor (inconsistant tears is almost always poor form or grip). Most times I can eye ball a set up well enough to negate shooting through paper.
I would much rather have a bow that can shoot an arrow without fletchings at 20-30 yards, even 40 or 50 sometimes.
I am also not a big fan of having to have your broad heads impact in the exact same spot as your field tips. This has a lot to do with perfect spine in my opinion. I am more concerned with how accurate the arrow is and how it flies. Many that spend a lot of time trying to get both arrows to impact together are actually detuning the bow in my opinion. (if they are doing it with rest adjustments only) I would rather have my broad head tipped arrows hit in the same spot every time, even if it is a few inches or so away from my field tips. Rather than have them hit in roughly the same spot but in a larger grouping which I have seen happen.
I guess its whatever makes you feel most confident. As long as the arrows go where you want them to it doesn't matter how you got there.
Honestly with a release, string loop and compound bow none of the tuning methods show exact results for spine issues. If I can't get the bow to tune without having to make adjustments that I know are wrong, I start playing with spine. You just can't go by this tear means this or my arrow impacted this way means that. Too many variables with a release and string loop. Sometimes the opposite of what you think might be true. But if you set your bow with a good center shot to begin with and have to move the rest half an inch to get it tune half way decent, or it still shoots the same chances are your spine is off a good bit.
At least those have been my findings anyway.
Paul
I would much rather have a bow that can shoot an arrow without fletchings at 20-30 yards, even 40 or 50 sometimes.
I am also not a big fan of having to have your broad heads impact in the exact same spot as your field tips. This has a lot to do with perfect spine in my opinion. I am more concerned with how accurate the arrow is and how it flies. Many that spend a lot of time trying to get both arrows to impact together are actually detuning the bow in my opinion. (if they are doing it with rest adjustments only) I would rather have my broad head tipped arrows hit in the same spot every time, even if it is a few inches or so away from my field tips. Rather than have them hit in roughly the same spot but in a larger grouping which I have seen happen.
I guess its whatever makes you feel most confident. As long as the arrows go where you want them to it doesn't matter how you got there
.Honestly with a release, string loop and compound bow none of the tuning methods show exact results for spine issues. If I can't get the bow to tune without having to make adjustments that I know are wrong, I start playing with spine. You just can't go by this tear means this or my arrow impacted this way means that. Too many variables with a release and string loop. Sometimes the opposite of what you think might be true. But if you set your bow with a good center shot to begin with and have to move the rest half an inch to get it tune half way decent, or it still shoots the same chances are your spine is off a good bit.
At least those have been my findings anyway.
Paul
06-02-2007, 11:51 AM
#6
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,127
RE: MZE Paper Tuning issue
I have had some mixed results with paper tuning. On my son's bow (2007 Fred Bear Element), I was able to get the thing paper tuned perfectly. And after I got there, it shot all types of 100 gr. broadheads about the same as 100 gr. field tips. On my Hoyt Pro Tec, it didn't shoot as consistently after paper tuning. Some broadheads were pretty close to field points and some weren't. As you might expect, the expandables were almost perfect and the fixed heads not so perfect. I started tuning for groups after that and wound up with a setting that gives me a slightly high left tear. The fixed blade broadheads I use (G5 Montec) hit a little lower than the field points - but group well - so I'm going to just move the sight a littlejust before hunting season.
